The Legend of Ruby Sunday

[0:00]

Hello, Delissa, and welcome back to the 2nd great and bountiful Human Empire, the only Doctor Who Flashcast brought to you by Shooty summoned a Hopeful Dentate Harbinger, um, Industries, or something.

I'm Malice.

I mischief.

And I'm misery.

So shooting someone to Hopeful Dentate Harbinger is literally an anagram of the 2nd grade and bountiful human Empire.

Well done.

Well done.

Are you going to change?

are you going to change?

change the logo. for this episode.

Okay.

No, it's crazy.

You can if you want.

It's kind of unfortunate that the person who would appreciate that most in the world.

Christopher Hamilton Bidmate will never, ever listen to this.

All right.

Let's just very quickly go round the table and talk about whether we like this episode or not.

I'm going to put my cards on the table and say, I did.

I've enjoyed every episode this season.

[01:00]

It's a little bit hard to judge, of course, because it's a part one.

What did you think, James?

Look, I loved it.

Like most of us, I'd heard the rumours.

Um, at all the fan speculation that Soutec was returning, uh, and I'd said, oh, yeah, oh, yeah, like, wow, fans, fans be fans, like, we'll always speculate about anything.

Um, And so I was fully expecting it and then didn't actually seriously actually expect it to happen.

Until the moment when you hear Gabriel Wolf's voice.

They're not going to do that.

They're not going to do that.

And then he just cuts in over Susan Twist speech and I'm like, oh, that's, that's, that's Gabriel, oh, okay, okay, okay.

It was...

I just found it. like I I've watched it 2.5 times.

Brilliant.

I so watched a doctor episode.

[02:00]

In the 1st week after broadcast in a long time, nothing against the series.

I've just been so, it was so, it was so fun.

It like had the fun of a Russell two-part season finale, which is something we've not had for so long.

Um, it just, yeah, um, Yeah, I'm just going to stop gabbling now and let Brendan, have you say?

Um, well, you've summed it up really well there.

It was, it was just immensely good, and I realised sort of two-thirds of the way through.

It has a lot of commonality with army of ghosts in terms of structure and setting and even the sort of construction of the cliffhanger.

But I realise sort of 2 thirds of the way through that it's a lot of talking about what's been happening this season, what's going on with the characters.

And I was still hooked.

You know, um, it's a feeling of growing dread rather than an actual menace standing in the corner.

[03:02]

Um, and then sort of about halfway through you get, you start getting actual physical menace.

Um, But yeah, I think, Everyone is just really great in it.

I'm wondering if Yasmin and Finney will get more to do next week.

Just because I think of all of all the cast, she's the only character.

Rose is the only character who didn't really have a story or a motivation this week.

But she was also there to give Ruby a mate.

And they had this immediate lovely girlfriend-y chemistry that I really liked, especially because, you know, Russell used to build on the idea of, oh, the companions are all jealous of each other and here, like, Ruby is meeting loads of the doctor's old friends and she's just like so thrilled to meet everyone.

It is such a lovely thing.

And then everyone gets along and starts working together.

I think my favourite moment of that part of the episode is when the girls and Kate start fan curling over to be a McCall. yeah she's nice.

[04:10]

She nice.

It's really cute.

I have to say that one of my very favourite episodes of this run so far since November is the giggle.

And one of the things that I was most looking forward to was seeing shooty in that new unit set up again, because, you know, it was clearly being set up for the future.

I really liked it.

Like I just love that stupid skyscraper and the ridiculous cantilevered Ellie pad and stuff.

And then Ibrahim, Colonel Ibrahim's back looking hot and just they're all there and it's just really terrifically fun and I'm just kind of happy to pass time with those people.

And I think, you know, we said the original Russell T. Davis era, expanding the kind of uh, regular cast into a sort of semi-regular cast.

And here, you know, we've got Kate, we've got the hilarious and delightful new scientific advisor who I think is adorable.

We have the links, you know, all of these things back, all of these elements back that we were waiting for.

It's just terrific.

[05:11]

I love how he's always definitively the links.

Yes.

The links.

Do this.

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

Yeah, I haven't read the novelisation of the giggle yet, but I gather that somewhere, somewhere in there, it's like the links does not have pronouns.

You refer to the links as the links and that's part of the links's programming and personality.

Yeah, I loved Lenny Rush as Morris.

I was amazed to discover that Lenny is only 15 just from the strength of the performance he gives.

And spoiler alert, Ruth Madely has been spotted filming next year.

So you know, we haven't totally lost Shirley.

And and yeah, and even Harriet Harriet Arbinger, getting really excited that she gets to analyse a videotape. working in TV myself and having to have gone in to get archive stuff from tapes.

It is exciting.

[06:11]

But also the double meaning of that line in hindsight.

I was born for the, like I was born for this.

Yes, yes, you were.

You were actually born. to like push this plot forward through this action.

Like, oh, yeah.

It was a really clever script.

Hmm, yeah, yeah.

Yeah, I think so too.

Well, so I think, you know, once we've kind of got in and introduced ourselves to everyone and stuff, I think maybe the central scene, because it is the legend of Ruby Sunday, is that incredible scene in the time window, which again just gives shooty so much acting to do, which looks amazing, just looks astonishing.

You know, the videotape effects and stuff.

Is it done on the volume?

Is that what we think is happening?

No, no, it's a multiple projectors onto white cyclorama, cycle rama.

Right.

So, yeah. like, yeah, like onto one, basically. projected, like obviously very high resolution projectors and a number of them to get it to look at sort of 3D. And obviously, the TARDIS is physically there in some sense as well with effects over the top of it, I think.

[07:27]

But and then they layer in like the snow and everything.

So yeah, like it, but it was practical.

Wow.

Wow.

That is great.

What did you think of it, Brendan?

Oh, yeah, I absolutely loved that.

And I think there's an effort to evoke Japanese horror there, particularly the ring, but, you know, in the wake of the ring, we've also had, um, I believe the original was Spanish, but it could have been done in Mexico, uh, wreck, the rec horror films, which are found footage horror films.

I did see an interesting opinion online and it was either from friend of the podcast Kevin or someone responding to him saying it feels like it was written to be scarier visually than it ended up, but possibly that that's as far as they could go with the found footage horror ring sort of aesthetic.

But I think it really works.

And I found it unsettling.

So I imagine that the 10 or 12 year old at home is going to find that scary as well.

[08:29]

It's the revelation that the CCTV camera is 66 metres away from the mother, which is, of course, 73 yards.

And so that's probably why we can't see her face at any point.

And I'm hoping that sort of plays into it.

But, you know, it's very clever and no one in the show seems to notice because I guess no one really knows.

No one remembers.

No, that's right.

Also, does that mean that Ruby's mother is Ruby?

Oh, she's a she's a grandfather paradox.

Could be, could be.

But um, yeah, I thought that was, that'd be kind of moffity, wouldn't it?

But so are some of the dialogue, you know, like Phoenix is just a bird until it burns, was giving me serious Moffat vibes as well.

I think there's a lot that Russell's learnt from the long Moffat era.

[09:29]

What did you think of that seeing James?

Look, I really enjoyed that scene.

Um, harking back to your point about the sort of building dread.

Throughout the episode.

That's where it really kind of kicks into into gear.

Uh, you know, like you've got, you've got this sort of setup of this mystery and all this talk of traps, constantly reiterating.

This is, yeah, the, the, um, the likelihood of a trap is increasing, you know, 95%, 97% kind of thing.

Um, But that sort of eerie, ghostly like landscape that they're in.

The obvious emotional anguish that Ruby is in and the doctor's emotion towards her because he cares about her and she's in pain.

Um, and then that moment where Colonel Jadetty disappears behind the TARDIS and then all that stuff with, uh, where they finally hear his voice and and it's, it's like, you know, I've been eaten basically, like I've been swallowed by like this ancient being.

[10:45]

Like, you know, like, I mean, it's a trope.

That's an obvious trope.

The person has disappeared.

They've, they're dead, that they're talking to you from beyond the grave.

God, that's howling.

It's muffin again too, I think.

Well, yes, yes, yeah.

He turned off the light.

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

That's right Or, or, um, the stuff in the uh, the angels 2 parter.

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Yeah.

Yeah, Angel Bob.

Yeah, it's um, it is pretty good stuff.

I also think that, um, when Ruby's mother is, like, stops for a bit and then she, she's crying and Carla says she's crying and and Carla wants to reach out to her and and reassure her because we already know that she's just a young woman, um, like in her, in her 20s, it is Ruby, isn't it?

There's definitely...

Um, uh, yeah, and I thought that was super effective on top of um, shooty's responses and on top of the way that Kate is reacting, and of course, merely, like it is like a scene that's emotional on all sorts of levels and everyone gets the chance to really shine in it.

[12:00]

I thought it was great and just visually stunning.

And then there's the wonderful moment where Carla recognises the beast as well.

We're foreshadowing a little.

Yeah, yeah, yeah. that's pretty wild, isn't it?

All right.

So one person that we haven't mentioned, and she turns up, obviously, in the next scene, because we pretty much go from the time window scene to Susan Twist's huge opening, and it's Mel, of course.

And isn't it fantastic to see her back?

Oh, well, it's not going to be a surprise to any long-term listeners that I was just so chuffed.

And of course, this appearance by Bonnie Ismel was the 1st thing announced before she appeared in the giggle.

Right.

Okay, yeah.

You know, the giggle was a bit more surprising.

Whereas, yeah, all of Bonnie's pre-publicity was, oh, it's so wonderful to work with Shooty.

[13:06]

Yeah, yeah, yeah You know, because they were odd location.

On location.

Exactly.

Yeah, yeah.

And yeah, it's so great to see her.

And it means because Mel is this just upright, honest character, we immediately feel sympathy for Susan Triad.

And especially because Mel then says...

She's actually really lovely.

Yeah, it's funny, isn't it?

Because Mel is a character of pure cardboard in the 80s, you know, and she, she, there's a really quite a sort of sweet and touching thing in the interview that she does in DWM where she says, I fear I didn't do a very good job, which is terrible.

I'm mortified to think that she thinks that because she was magnificent.

Showing good, good job by her.

Yeah, maybe that's it ending the point.

But there's enough there, just from the charm of her performances, Mel, and from the way the character was designed, that, you know, this is still definitely Mel, isn't it?

Yeah.

This is like Mel, you know, she's been through some stuff.

Um, oh, also the, the, the hinting at her origin as well.

[14:12]

And that's just the story that we obviously never saw.

Um, and what terrible thing happened to her parents?

Oh my god.

It's it's dark.

Yeah.

Yeah, that's super interesting, isn't it?

So it's adding a level to the character and like establishing that she's an orphan, which I don't think was really, definitely established in the, in the 1980s.

Well, you just never, she doesn't have anything apart from, she was a computer programmer.

Yeah, yeah.

It was literally her character description, wasn't it?

Yeah, yeah, yeah, basically, basically.

I mean, frankly, being the 1980s in Doctor Who, she would be the odd one out if she weren't an orphan.

Yeah, that's right.

Four orphans, that show.

All right.

So, Susan Triad comes in.

She does what is apparently a Teresa May dance.

I wasn't really aware of this, but that's what she's doing according to the audio description as tweeted by Hannah, friend of the podcast just a few moments before we started recording.

[15:14]

So that's bringing up some traumatic memories, I guess, for the viewers in the UK.

What do we think generally of what's going on here with the with the cliffhanger, James.

I think given the state of British politics, they're probably remembering that Theresa made hands with affection at this point.

Exactly.

That deep, Richie Sunak, where we don't let the Prime Minister into the, like, particularly not the Prime Minister, we don't let the Elon Musk joke.

Yeah, the Elon Musk joke.

Yeah, yeah.

And you want to know something?

When was this shot?

Yeah, I don't know.

Because Rishi Sunak probably wasn't Prime Minister when this was shot.

It works for all of them, really.

You know, and you've also got like a year before broadcast at least.

Yeah, probably.

Like April last year, maybe?

Yeah.

Yeah, yeah, yeah. because they they've just finished shooting um shooting 2nd series.

[16:18]

Yeah, a couple of weeks ago.

But yeah, you also get a dig in there of, you know, we keep an eye on all the tech billionaires and take down the ones using alien tech well except for the obvious, but we're working on him.

Yeah.

So good.

But back to the climax.

Clifford, yeah.

Yeah.

Oh.

Oh my god.

Like someone, someone online made the, made the sort of caddish, um, but quite appetite joke about, um, Sutek.

Obviously, employing a graphic designer.

Um, to make sure that his return was um, as impactful as possible and and and that, you know, like they'd really put in some effort with, with anagrams.

Yeah, yeah.

So you take those comes now.

It's super weird.

Yeah.

Yeah.

But it doesn't think that they do at the end of Army, of course, or less successfully the end of Aliens of London. the multiple like the multiple cliffhanger thing where you've got our various uh protagonists being threatened by by different but linked uh menaces.

[17:36]

Um, and and everybody finding the information out at the same time through different means, which is, uh, like, I think it was done really well in this case.

And what do we think of, um, so you takes makeover, um, Brendan?

It's interesting because I really love it, you know, and for a start, I think the makeup effects on Harriet and Susan are incredibly effective.

Do you think they're trying to like hark back to Marcus Scarman?

Oh, absolutely.

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

And, you know, I like that each of them being a different sort of function of Soutec, if you like, are given a different appearance and a different look.

Um, Now, I've seen some complaints online about the CG jackal, Sutech.

I really like it, and I don't see anything wrong with it, and a lot of people are saying they don't like it.

I have to wonder if it's a difference in TV settings and that's not me saying to anyone, you've got your TV set up wrong.

[18:43]

I'm just saying it looked really good on mine.

Yeah, yeah.

No, I think it looks really effective.

It's got teeth.

You know, that was a very static rubber mask, which was effective at the time and there are some moments where I think it looks fantastic in Pyramids of Mars, which I think is a vastly overrated story.

But I love that mask.

I love that mask.

You know, it's it's a papier machet mask.

Yeah.

You know, like on a stick.

Yeah.

Yes, yes, I don't think there's even a person there some of the time.

Yeah.

It's very narrow hair.

Yeah, that's right.

But I think it looks great.

And it certainly, you know, back in the day when there are a lot of puppets made out of terriers' heads, like the scarrison and stuff.

So it's like being reminded of my old dog Gracie again when I look at when I look at one of those and again tonight with a terrifying the terrifying jackal head, which I think looks pretty great.

Yeah, so I think that's kind of fun.

[19:45]

And weird and, you know, the way it, uh, you know, wraps around the TARDIS and doesn't seem to have a body and stuff.

It's all very strange.

Yeah, I mean, for me, it's sort of playing on the, the idea of a like sleep paralysis demon, which people seem, seemingly universally describe as a black shape at the end of your bed and, you know, just 2 glowing eyes, maybe a protruding face and that sort of thing.

And then when Susan Twist is revealed as the agent of Su Tech, um, or what is it?

Scarman calls himself the emissary of Soutec and sort of throws her head back.

That's like out of a Sam Raimi horror film.

You know, I think the references are being worn on the sleeve and I really like it.

Now you, now you say that.

That dog.

Reminds me of the Gamork from Netflix story, which scared me witless as a child.

I used to, just it had these glowing green eyes for most of the film, it's just 2 glowing green eyes in the back of a cave, um, and that just stuck with me and and often, you know, if I had watched it, like I wouldn't be able to sleep because, you know, like the night light in the corner would just be like, like the dog walked away.

[21:07]

Yeah.

It's a great, you know, it's a, it's a great Muppet, but it's not, it's not anywhere near as convincing as just those glowing eyes than I have a cable.

But yeah, scary dogs.

They're a thing of nightmares.

Mm.

So let's talk about where we think this is going.

Todd can't be here tonight, but he is particularly interested in Mrs. Flood, I think.

Like he mentioned her and mentioned, um, Susan Twist, because of course that just seems to have been a big kind of misdirect, doesn't it?

Despite having the all-important end of the teaser moment devoted to it.

It doesn't seem to go anywhere.

What do we think of Mrs. Flood?

Well, she could be a Susan Christ.

Yes, I think she is.

I feel like she might actually be Susan.

Um, and she might be Ruby's mother.

[22:08]

So we talk about regeneration, remember?

Where, um, we talk about regeneration and regeneration is something that you can do to escape death or to hide yourself away.

And then when Mrs. Flood's in Cherry's bedroom, she's going, oh, or just outside Cherry's bedroom, you know, putting her coat, hanging her coat up.

She's hiding myself away and you kind of think, oh, okay.

All right.

That was very subtle.

So perhaps she's Susan.

But that moment where she just kind of, the, like, her bedroom sort of darkens theatrically, like, Charlie's bedroom darkens absolutely theatrically, and she's just looking at us and talking about the storm coming on, is really great.

So good.

I think that Susan, as played by Carol Anne Ford, will be back next week.

I'm nailing my colours to the master on that one.

I think that Mrs. Flood has a 1st name of something like Aria or Allegra.

So she's Aria Flood.

[23:09]

Or to put it another way, river song.

Oh my god.

Projecting herself out of the library because just that line to Cherry of, well, we all want a lot of things.

I can just hear Alex Kingston saying that.

And let us not forget, River song is a psychopath.

Okay.

Though, you know, big finish has given her body back in the next box set.

Oh, my God, of course.

Modern technology, she gets to leave the library.

Or it's Clara because she is wearing Clara's outfit for basically.

She is great.

Wow.

Okay.

Now, I will say, though, a thought that's just occurred to me is that like the toy maker and maestro...

Mrs. Flood has broken the 4th wall twice now.

And so I have to wonder if she is another god of self-description.

[24:10]

I'm not a malicious one.

No, no.

Despite her scary teeth.

She's British.

Yeah, I guess so.

All right, I reckon there's one more thing that needs to be crossed off the list before we wind up today, and that is Brendan, the sensor rights.

Tell us about it.

Okay.

So I will start from the, um, the least significant working my way through.

So, of course, we get doctor on the bridge and um, the doctor spends his, the 1st 2 episodes of the sensor rights on the bridge of a spaceship.

Okay, yep.

But we also have stories that involve psychic control.

And a damaged TARDIS.

We have a character called Susan talking about orange skies and dreaming of them.

Yeah.

We have a suspicion that Susan is being manipulated.

As well as threatening to give Susan some much needed character development before deciding by the end of the story.

[25:11]

Nah.

But one, and I have to thank, I have to thank Peter for this, because in the group chat, he sort of brought up a possibility of Mrs. Flood saying to Cherry Sunday.

Remember your family group?

sort of a threatening way.

And that just made me think of other dialogue from the sensor, right?

And the line that pops into my head with is I should imprison you in some room wherein no light can shine and fill that room with noise, which is rather like the time window.

Yeah, you know.

Um, but I think, I think for me, the, the biggest one there is, you know, we have a story about psychic, uh, psychic control, and we do have a damaged hardest that is significant, and also it's presented as a threat with the sensor rights.

The censors are capable of this level of threat because they can violate the TARDIS.

And same as SUTEC.

Are you going to put this theory to Russell on Instagram?

[26:12]

I may do because, God, listen, whenever I comment on one of Russell's things.

He usually likes it.

And look, he could be liking every comment, but even so, even so, that takes effort and he's probably not liking the comments saying, what are you doing putting gayness in Doctor Who?

This has never happened before.

You've made it work.

Okay, listen, Doctor Who please.

All right.

Speaking of speaking of the keys of mariners.

Exactly.

Yes, Altos is looking a little bit chilly around the thighs, isn't he?

All right.

So it's time for us to wind up, I think.

What about plugging things?

I can tell you that this Friday, untitled Star Trek project will be releasing an episode on The Devil in the Dark, which is the famous episode with the lava duvet.

It is an absolute classic of the original series, one of the best, one of the best episodes, I think, of the show's entire run, and absolutely what Star Trek is about, though.

[27:13]

I love it to death.

So that's coming.

And we did Startling Barbara Payne and released it on the weekend. which was not an episode about a hopeful future of exploring Strange New World so much as a miserable future of going to Strange New World and killing everyone there, but nevertheless, we enjoyed ourselves.

So that's uh, Voyager's Return, episode 6 of Startling Barbara Bay.

Um, Brendan.

What do you want to plug?

I would like to plug the latest episode of the BJBJ game show on the indie game, The Tourist, and also the latest episode of the three-handed game where our new theme is The Cool War, and we are starting with the new Avengers episode to catch a rat.

Brilliant.

James, do you have to plug anything?

I was going to plug startling up a bank for you.

You've already done that for me.

Okay.

That's fine.

All right.

[28:14]

Well, in that case, all that remains is for me to say, until next time, you really should consider getting the car thoroughly detailed, probably quite soon.

Thank you very much for listening and good night.

Good night.

Good night.