Empire of Death

Season 1, Episode 8. First broadcast on Saturday 22 June 2024.

Episode 11 · Monday 24 June 2024.

This week, there’s a lot of hoovering to be done but nobody left alive to do it. So instead, let’s talk about how we felt about the final episode of Season 1 — a very happy ending or absolute terror?

Recorded on Monday 24 June 2024 · Download (39.7 MB)
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Transcript

Hello, dear listener, and welcome back to the 2nd great and bountiful Human Empire, the only Doctor Who flash cast that's in your TARDIS time control, killing your dudes. I'm Nathan. I'm Brendan. I'm Simon. And I'm Todd. So we are here to talk about Empire of Death, which we saw mere days ago, the finale to season one of this new version of Doctor Who, written by Russell T. Davis, as usual, and directed by Jamie Donahue, who did last week's episode as well. Let's start by just giving a kind of general feeling about how we uh, sorry. Let's just start by giving a sort of general idea of how we felt about the episode. Simon, you're on record, I think, as saying that RTD series finales aren't quite your favourite thing. They tend not to be. How did you feel about this one? Look, I enjoyed it. I probably put it 2nd behind Bad Wolf Parting of the Ways, which is the only one that I rate in any serious way. I actually found myself enjoying it. Yes, there are some strange problems. Usually, though, a good sign is when you only think about those problems after you've watched it rather than while you're watching it, and I'm sure we might pick up on some of those later. But no, look, I think I think it was, it was fine. I think it actually fulfilled the promise of the previous episode. Usually the problem with the 2nd episode is that it disappoints what's being promised in episode one, which is actually not the problem with the classic series. I will acknowledge. But in this case, I actually think it's fulfilled that. Yes, it wasn't there are silly things with it, but I thought it was great. I thought everyone was great in it. I thought it was probably shooting's best performance of the season, and Bonnie, I mean, Bonnie. I mean, she, she, she, she, she is actually the best person in it by a significant mile. Um, and I include shooting in that. She is just better than axe rings around the rest of them, I have to say. What did you think, Todd? I agree. I thought it was charming. Bonnie Langford was just phenomenal. Absolutely, absolutely stole the show. It's funny, I think we mentioned last week that she was in DWM saying that she hadn't been very good in the show that she feared that she wasn't very good or maybe a couple of weeks ago, but she is so experienced, you know, and just so good as a result. And in fact, her kind of falling asleep on board the TARDIS, as if her energy's being sapped from her, is actually a little bit difficult to watch. It's really quite sad. Or the moment where she sees, you know, Colin's jacket. Yes. Oh, just touching. The look on her face when she's touching the... sleeve is just lovely. The whole episode is worth, the whole double is worth it for her alone for me. Yeah, yeah. Well, the whole revival, I think. What did you think, Fred? Um, I've said that this season I felt like every episode has bettered the previous one. and we started out in a strong place anyway. This is where it falls down. Not entirely. It's not a disaster. Um, but I was idly thinking today and I ranked the Russell T Davies season enders and I'm like, okay. Yes, I saw that. Yeah. So it's like Bad Wolf Parting of the Ways, Journey's End, and last of the time, Lords, I consider them all to be 10 out of 10. Um, Army of Ghost Doomsday are considered to be 9 out of 10. This and the giggle, I consider a 7 out of 10. So they're still solid. They're still solid. And then you've got the end of time. Daylight, the end of time. I'm in shock, Frank. I'm in shock Not what I expected from you. Yeah. Now, look, I completely agree with what's been said so far. I think Bonnie is excellent. I think shoot he's amazing. I think the cliffhanger resolve of, oh, what if we just pull the doctor out of the way of the slow moving agent of Soutek? is it made me laugh in the moment. It's just like a proper 80s cliffhanger resolution, isn't it? Yeah, yeah, yeah. We did call that a proper 80s cliffhanger is wait. We did it in flux as well, I think, didn't we? Where we just moved quickly away from swarm at one point. Yeah, and look, I think most of my problems with it are sort of around explanations for why things are happening in the plot just seem to be, and it's this now, and because this is how this works. And I just feel like some of those more fantastical explanations we've had since Russell came back have been better handled in the past, like where gods come from and how magic works and da da da da. I don't know if some lines were cut out or if it was something with the direction and the vision made things clearer. That being said, I still very much enjoyed it. I don't think it's a bad or weak episode by any means. It's just what has come before, including last week was so good that this needed to be more explicit, in my opinion, in what it was trying to do. I did think there were some important moments of explanation that were actually fudged by the director. And in particular, I think, uh, maybe the, the reveal where Louise points to the, the lamp post and we discover it's a thing. I think that's actually badly done. I think I think that's that or whole thing and this is probably about the season rather than the episode, but I find that a bit trite. this mysterious figure pointing in a very kind of Gothic way. It's all, and then for it to just reveal that she's just a normal person, basically, and ends now a nurse, I think that's, that's probably the weakest thing. But because it didn't, it's not what the episode was about. That didn't bother me too much. See, in a way, I think it is what the episode's about, and I liked it for that reason, that it wasn't, you know, a science fiction thing, and it wasn't quite the Gothic thing that we imagined it was going to be. We had the rug pulled out from under us last week with the, it was 2004. It wasn't Charles Dickens, you know. And so having that very strange fairy tale thing and then just learning that in fact it was just a frightened girl abandoning her baby, you know, like I did actually like that outcome, it meant that we don't have a space reasons thing about Ruby's origin. She's just a person. I don't mind that at all. It's just that, like, here's this mysterious hooded figure, and she's pointing in an ominous way, and then in other episodes Maestro's saying that there's something wrong with Ruby and her song, and I just kind of think that it just doesn't quite, 2 and 2 don't make four. you know what I mean? Like, I just think that's how I feel about that. But I don't necessarily loathe it. I just think that it wasn't the best, you know? Yeah, it's not the fact that she's a normal person. the fact that it's all the setup with all the the pointing in the robes and everything like that. It's just like, unless there's something next season, you know? Exactly. And that's maybe what the maestro thing was. It's supposed to be referring to that, but, you know, Yeah. And look, you know, Russell knew when he started writing this season that the next season had been commissioned. Right. So, yeah, he has made some comments in recent weeks that storylines continue next season and he's now working on season 3 which has not been officially commissioned, but he is working on it. Hence, the woman in Mary Tam's outfit from the rebus operation, who was previously wearing Clara's outfit from Face the Raven. I think she's fabulous and I thought that ending was magnificent. Just absolutely. I was actually really happy that she had nothing to do with C tech and nothing to do with it. because that was the assumption in the previous episode. and I think that that was, that was, that was pretty good. And she sounds really terrifying. She's going to go and kill God. I just think she's wonderful. Like, you know, all of her little lines. I had such plans for a boy and then, you know, yeah, just, yeah yeah. in what was it? absolute terror. It was just delicious. Yeah, I mean, that's the thing. Like, I've been saying all along. I think she's river song, but now with some comments Russell has made this week where Russell's like, no, I deliberately put in red herrings, because I know fans are going to talk about them. Um, it's like, okay, her name is based on water, she's wearing Romana's coat. She's got a parasol on a roof. She's got a suitcase that I thought said trends of law, but it actually says Penzance. So it's like where it's being hinted that she is Romana River song at Clara. She none of them. Oh, there was a hint she was Susan last week, too, remember? And yeah, and she was Susan, of course. Yes. Yeah, but yeah, I've now decided she's none of them. No, she's Chancellor Flavia. Well, you know Russell loves Chancellor Flavia, so that's entirely a possibility. You know, I just, I just loved, like, I love the call back to 73 yards and I love the memory TARDIS. I loved that and all the little things to do with the past in that. You know, I just thought it was really beautiful, so much of it you know? Do we know if they built the memory Tartars for this and then decided to do all of the tales from the Tartars? Yeah, right. So it was that way round rather than, yeah. So yeah, we'll get to that in a minute because I think that that plays an important role in the episode, obviously. But let's just talk about how it begins because the cliffhanger is resolved, but then things get worse. And I think that that's the best kind of cliffhanger. It's like, um, Greatest Show in the Galaxy 4. You know, there's a cliffhanger and then things just build and build and get worse and worse and worse. And things have rarely been quite as bad as this, I think, in Doctor Who. How did people feel about that sequence? Todd. One of the things I dislike is when you actually start killing off everybody, because then you know there's a magical reset, and the moment that rose and um, Kate and all of them turn to dust. I just went, oh, so now we're going to have a reset button, right at the end. So I was on the back foot. I did not buy that death at all. If it had just been Kate by herself or something like that, then maybe I would have thought, oh no. But I went, oh, no. Like, it's just going to be this reset. I'm just, how are they going to get out of this? Is it going to be a crap explanation? So I was on the back foot from that for a little while. I thought it was glorious that everybody came back, including those poor men that were killed last week. I just thought that was wonderful. Everybody lives, yes. And including Susan Triad. I think it was great that she ended up living too. I thought the Vlinks was definitely for it. When the blinks got killed, I thought, oh, that's like killing Adrick. No, it'll care. And then they killed everyone else. What did you think, Simon? Well, I was going to say, I was... I took a little bit longer to get to the thing, oh, it's just great. have a great big reset button because I thought it was not entirely impossible. He was using this as a way to kind of cleanse all of the all that kind of unit team and go, okay, we're going to do something else later. But I thought, well, they're probably all coming back when they all turned to dust, and I certainly thought that we were all coming back as soon as it started to spread around the globe. I mean, it is very impressive, very frightening, especially it's not just the earth. It's everywhere the doctor has visited in the last, you know, since Pyramids of Mars. He's basically effectively polluted or infected with this gift of dust to all the universe. So, it's, it's, look, I mean, Doctor Who has done that before obviously, you know, whether it's logopolis or other things, like the flux and so on, but it's never going to be overly impressive and it's more frightening when people are picked off, you know, one by one, but they're going for the big, big shock value and it's certainly made for a great special effect. So I can't really complain. And it also actually, I think that scene where he's on the alien planet and it's just that woman with her, you know, dead child, I assume, uh, is very effective. And I think this idea that there are so, for some reason, there are a few pockets of people who have been accidentally left, but they're on the way out anyway, and that actually kind of is the payoff to, to everybody turning to dust at once. Well, I like that because he doesn't mean the doctor actually visited that planet. It may have been spread to that planet as it suggested in the dialogue, like eventually gets there through Susan Triad or through space and whatever. And I spent that whole scene going, I know this woman. I know this woman. I know this woman. And then only when I watched it again. The penny dropped that it's Claire from Fleabag and I thought she was tremendous and I really didn't love that scene. Do you know, that seems to me in some ways to be an answer to the tubital era, because that is a classic tubital era scene. It's like Survivors of the Flux or like Ascension of the Cyberman. And it is kind of Russell showing A, that he can do that and make us care about it. And B, that the doctor's job is to fix that sort of thing rather than just go away somewhere else at the end of the episode. And so I just thought that was incredibly beautiful. The details about the opera house, you know, and her husband being tall and like all of that stuff, I just thought was so skilfully done and the, and just that sort of the brownness of everything. You know, the dust in the air, all of that, even the opticals of the planets, which are all sort of shrouded in dust and things. I just thought it was, it was really very good. And of course, that action sequence leading up to it with the bus and the, and the, and the chase and all of that, I thought, was amazing. And then suddenly we can see the money. I mean, that's the sort of stuff. I mean, there would obviously would have been CGI crashes in there as well, but, you know, all those people, there would have been a lot of extras there. There was a lot of hardware happening. There was a lot of crashes. Yeah, as I said, some of it CGI, but I think there's real stuff going on there and that costs money. I actually think that, I mean, there's a lot being made about, you know, shooting being emotional and they're being the odd emotional scene here, they're everywhere throughout the season. But I actually think that this is the only one. That scene is the only one for me, which actually was properly emotional. The rest were just like, he was just an emotional scene we're going to do. Come on, everybody, let's feel emotional. And you need to have more than that to actually be affected. And I think that was the 1st time in the season where I thought yeah, we're actually doing that that kind of scene properly for the 1st time. Yeah, no, I think that's a, that is an amazing, amazingly good scene. All right. Let's talk about Sutek himself. Um, and someone pointed out that in the very 1st episode of the new series, uh, Clive identifies the doctor's constant companion as deaf, um, and what this reminded me of is the arc. um naturally. Of course. Dodo. You remember that there's this line where the doctor suggests that perhaps they've been infecting people wherever they've gone with their germs and so they've been bringing germs everywhere. Earlier in the, in the previous episode last week, the doctor said that he brought havoc and death wherever he went and that's why he hadn't gone back to visit Susan and, you know, Kate says, no, no, I think you bring joy. But, you know, the doctors fear that he brings death and destruction and mayhem with him wherever he goes, and that's made real by having big old Soutec crouched over the ship for the last 40 something years. Um, how did people feel that Sutec, Sutec went and and and that resolution, Brendan? So I said last week that I thought, you know, within 2 minutes of the start of this episode, he'd be a man in a suit swanning around um, that unit set, and it wasn't. And again, I was really impressed by the visual effects of Soutech. I think having, um, I think having Harriet and later Mel and Susan Triad, Sutex Avatars, if you like, um, helped helped lend to that as well. It gave it a sense of scale. But I thought the visual representation was really good. They get a lot of emotionality out of that totally invented face. And of course, Gabrielle Wolf has still got it. So no complaints here. What did you think, Tom? I don't know. I'm a bit on the fence with it. Just a lot, like a big dog all the time and then the voice over the top. Do you know what I mean? Like, is that... No, I agree. I agree. And then I was trying to point out, well, when did he grab onto the TARDIS in the pyramids of Mars? Was it when he 1st the vision happened at the beginning where Sarah saw him? Or was it, like, because later on he's sent to his doom, like in the future? But the Tatars isn't in that corridor. So I guess I got stuck in that, Brendan? I think you're absolutely right. And I messaged Nathan earlier saying, I've realised something about pyramids above. If I forget, tell me. No, I think it is when Sarah sees Sutek at the starter pyramids of Mars. Remember, they're en route to Unit HQ and then they are knocked off course back to 1911. So I think Soutex going forward. The TARDIS is and runs into the TARDIS and sends it backwards. Good explanation just as you're a perfect explanation, Brendan. It's just like your unit dating theory. Yeah, it's the same thing with Pyramids and Mars. So, you know, you're bringing that. I, however, have a much more Sorry, you... I was just going to say, my unit dating theory depends on Soutec grabbing onto the time vortex and ripping it out of shape. And what happens? What happens? Anyway, sorry, go away. That's right. Look, I mean, I'm a Doctor Who fan. I'm never going to let some misused continuity get in the way of enjoying the episode. But look, I, for echoing what Todd was saying. I can understand why they present Z Tech like this. you know modern audience, modern thing. have CGI, we can do all this stuff. I just think, though, that there is something and, you know, we can mock the papier mache mask from 1975, but I think if you'd have taken that look and just done it with today's technology in today's ability, I think, at nuances and so on, I think it would have been much more freaky. I mean, that mask, even now when I watch Pyramids of Mars has a freaky devilishness to it for me. But anyway, look, that was not going to detract. was just like, oh this is how I would have done it instead. I think, I mean, they love, it's like that thing that, you know the modern era likes to try and recreate the catch lines that all the kids were saying on the bus when very elaborate was overhearing them. So, you know, we have to say, I bring Sutex gifts of dust to all the universal humanity over and over again rather than just once which would have been much more powerful. I think the makeup on the, on the, the minions is the most freakish and brilliant part of it because it is relatively understated, certainly understated compared to the way CTex presented. And I think the performances of those 3 actresses is immaculate when they're being possessed. And that does have that kind of devilish evil thing. I'm not convinced. I mean, I maybe I misheard things or wasn't paying attention, but Sutech is an a siren, a race, a super advanced race that visits ancient Egypt, and, you know, any adequately advanced technology is indistinguishable from magic, and godlike godness. And that's why they are worshipped as gods and they influence the development of Egypt and the human race ultimately. And now suddenly he's just kind of a hyper dimensional being. Am I am I hearing that, right? There is a line of dialogue where it's the fact that he travels around the time vortex, you know, holding the TARDIS over all of that time that eventually he does turn into the god that he always imagined himself. They could have to be. But he imagines himself to be. Yeah, that's a tough thing. I, I still think, and they try and recreate it and not really successfully, the reason that we remember Zue Tech, apart from the cushion, obviously, is that scene with Tom. Uh, and it's that, that scene where he, uh, you know, Tom is in the in the pyramid with SUTEC, and he's being tortured. And Soutec, um, says what he thinks is good. You know, like I leave death and destruction or what, you know wherever I go, I find that good. And then Tom says you're an abomination in the name of sort of all sentient creation and things. And I think that's one of the great highlights of the classic series. And, you know, far better than the story that it finds itself in. And as recently as Flux, Chibnill tried to do that with Azure as well, she and the doctor have a similar conversation along those lines. And I think that's incredible and that's where you get, you know that crisp voice of Gabriel Wolf and the incredible stillness and Tom in pain and stuff. I think it's one of the absolute highlights of the series. They do try and do that in the time window with shooting and the big old dog, but it doesn't quite land in the same way. does seem to be just an echo of it. That's partly because I think there's just, I mean, this is the new series generally. There is just not enough stillness in the new series. particularly in this season. It's too much going on. It's not the way they're making it, which is unfortunate, but we have to live with that. I don't know about the cultural appropriation line, which is very odd and not, I think, misplaced, but, you know, that's not atypical of this season. Well, I think I think it's like a throwaway and almost a comedy line as well. I mean, the problem with one of the big problems with pyramids of Mars is that by modern standards, it's quite racist. And so, you know, if he is going to bring that character in, he has to do what he did with the toy maker, I think, and sort of address it in some way without waiting. I don't necessarily see that though. Really? Yeah, there's lots of sort of silly Egyptian. apart from Ibrahim Nam in the beginning. And I mean, yeah, I think they're the character. Is that sort of thing? But the concept of having him having influenced ancient Egypt and basically effectively being an Egyptian god. I don't... It's one of those unfortunate things that, you know, if you're going to say a line like that, let there be actual cultural appropriation as opposed to, you know, cultural inspiration, should we say? I think there's cultural appropriation in the sense of taking Egyptian culture and turning it into a hammer horror film and probably that's what he's referring to rather than anything in universe as such. I think it's a metacometry. And also, it's a quicker way for the doctor to explain to Ruby. Well, he's actually an alien who came here and was worshipped as a god, and that was the foundation for Egyptian culture, and da da da. It's cultural appropriation. Ruby's like, oh, I know what that means. Yeah. But having him as the big dog was fantastic because it gave us that wonderful moment, which I didn't actually see coming where Ruby's going to go and show him the tablet or whatever and I'm going, I want to know what's the name and then she drops it and leashes him and it's like on for young and old. I thought that was great. The god of nothing line. She was so magnificent. Is that what she says? God of nothing. You know, she mocks him. And then puts a leash on him and that kind of... Yes, it's pretty great. Some men would pay good money for that. And I guess, you know, people are obviously going to say Deos X Markina, because they always say that about Russell's finales whether they have a day or sex Markina in them or not. This one obviously has a deos in mark in our. We had a dayos lying around, and obviously we have to use that to solve the problem that it's created. And so while I'm not kind of sure that, you know, death squared equals life, whatever, I guess, it's magic and that's how we're going to resolve it. I kind of went, yeah, death plus death equals life, does it really? And just by dragging through the vortex, suddenly, by touching the sides, he's going to just make everything on every world. okay? I don't know. I just I wanted a bit more explanation. I'm okay with it, right? I, you know, there is an explanation there. It's just if you dig a little bit deeper, sometimes that's not as satisfactory, but I'm not, I'm not saying I don't like it, like there is an explanation. I think multiply death by death rather than... exactly. It's like the square of minus one and square of minus one is one. Yeah, that's it. Yeah, yeah, that's what I was going to say. Like the 12-year-old at home has just learned in maths this week that if you multiply a negative by a negative, you get a positive. And I think that's what Russell's going for. And frankly, scientifically, it's like shoving all the IVs in the lift shower in New Earth and you suddenly cure everything. Okay, Russell, sure care, Russell. But, like, yeah, I don't think, like... Yeah. But like you, Todd, I'm just along for the ride. It's like, okay, that's the explanation I'm given. Everyone in the room believes it. Okay. Yep, fine. I'm along. Yeah. Well, I'm totally okay with him being let off the leash and then dying in the vortex because he's no longer connected to the TARDIS in some way. So that I had no problem with that at all. I think that looked great. Yeah. Oh, yeah, stunning. I thought that looked good. I mean, it's one of those things. When you create a situation like that where the entirety of creation is being obliterated by this dust, no way out. There is no way out of that that's going to be either plausible or ultimately satisfactory. So whenever those sorts of things happen on that sort of scale, I just kind of go, oh, you know, whatever. I mean, I think I think we want the visuals from that. Do you know what I mean? I think it would be poor if the show was less ambitious if it said well, we can't plausibly get out of this, so we'll just give everyone a bit of a cold or something like that. Do you know what I mean? Like, yeah, yeah, yeah. It's better that they sort of attempt it and then do, you know they have a god lying around and so they use that to solve the problem. I think, you know, that's kind of okay. I mean, it's just that like sort of lack of sophistication that I alluded to earlier in the season. That's all, it's just, and that's for me, the issue, broadly speaking, with Russell's version of the show, is just a broad, like a sophistication, to my taste. It doesn't mean I can't enjoy it because the one thing that most of this season has had, of course, isn't it's been engaging, even if I haven't liked all of it. What I wasn't necessarily okay with was Colonel Ibrahim and Kate holding hands at the end. Yes, what was that? What was that? Why? Because they were dead. In fact, it wasn't a recent button. We fixed it. Do you know what I mean? Like all of that happened. They were aware that it happened. Yeah, where it happened. Yeah, it's interesting that, yeah, I've I've said on a previous episode this season, we've had some episodes of really where they're influencers on their sleeve, and I think a big influence with Mel slowly fading away. And it occurred to me afterwards because, of course, we just lost Donald Sutherland a few days ago, is the 1978 invasion of the body snatchers where it's when you fall asleep that they get you. And I felt like it was very much like the characters in that version trying to stay awake. As for the revivification, I think Russell is directly taking it from the Avengers endgame films. Yeah, with the snap. Because, yeah, with the snap and with the fact that we can't change time because it creates a paradox, therefore, we will bring everyone back 5 years later. And I do wonder whether we're going to explore next season the fact that everyone in the world has been dead for 2 hours or whatever it was and everyone remembers it on some level. Um, because something I really liked when we had those death scenes was out with our with our heroes and their supporters and family and Carla and the unit people and everyone, there was a stoicism and acceptance and sadness and I thought that Gemma Redgrave speech about the birds was so beautifully done. And I found myself thinking, what is it about the birds? And then I thought back today of the doctor and she's out watching the ravens. And they need recharging or something. That's right. I thought it was great in this two-part. Like, I don't care what people say about her. I actually really, all the women, all the women were fabulous in this. And one scene that moved me to absolute tears was actually Ruby meeting a mum and I didn't think I was going to. I actually had tears. So well done. Let's talk about that because I think that so has done 4 proper kind of full season finales and only in one of them has the companion departed of their own free will and that's Martha. And I think that we liked that. I think, you know, generally speaking, we like it because she just gets to leave on her own terms and she doesn't leave for space reasons. She just says, I'm kind of done here. And that scene where she's there with a doctor and she's trying to talk to him, but she's distracted by her phone. Like, and it's her life. All these changes in her life, her mother, her father, all calling her away from him and her being torn and it's an amazing performance by Millie. And I think it's the right decision. I was expecting, you know, we were all expecting her to be, you know, some hyper intelligent pan-dimensional being or something. And she just ends up being Millie and she just leaves on her own terms in a normal way. And I found it really incredibly moving. And the bit that I liked the most was where the doctor tells her not to go and speak to Louise and the reason he does that is he's a foundling, and he wants them to be foundlings together, and he fears that he'll lose her, if she finds her mother, that that's you know, there's a little selfish moment there, um, where he tries to persuade her out of it. And you can see that in that final scene where he knows that he's going to say goodbye to her because the big thing that they had in common all this time is now gone and she has something better. It's a little bit like, you know, Rose gets her father back at the end of series two, you know, Millie gets her whole family back or a new family or a, you know, an origin. It was just all very well done. It's interesting you say that because that's not how I read that conversation between the doctor and Millie. When they're outside the cafe, I mean, and how I read it is he's listing all the reasons he still hasn't popped forward to the 22nd century to see. Susan. Yeah. But there's that too. And then that is mentioned in that. Well, I've seen it. I think certainly in that last scene, there is an element of, you know, Ruby is now moving away from him because not only has she got the family who raised her, but she's found the family, who created her, you know, and she, so she's surrounded by twice the love she had before, if not more. And I think I think there's an element in of sadness in there of he doesn't feel needed and even feels like he might be intruding on that. Um, Yeah, and I, I, I just thought his his reaction to watching them in the cafes is so lovely. And and melancholy and heartbreaking. It's a bit of a rebuke too, isn't it, to, you know, the way the doctor had the watch and she just threw it away. She decided not to investigate it and look into it. And now he sees Ruby making a completely different decision and starts to think, well, maybe that's what I should have done. Um, nothing to add. I mean, I, I, it's funny because I read it as the, at the scene outside the cafe as the doctor was playing. It was so that she wasn't having an internal monologue. It was kind of, it was kind of an external version of the internal monitor. Should I go in there? What if she doesn't like me? What if she hates me? What if she doesn't want to see it? Basically, it's like that thing. As soon as, as soon as she steps through the door and talks to her there is only, you know, it'll be what it'll be and she can't, she can't ever wonder whether, you know, if the reaction is bad, she can't even wonder what might the reaction have been like? you know what I mean? I'm not expressing that right, but it's that kind of thing. It's basically the doctor's providing the procrastination. I just saw it as a use of a character in drama rather than anything deeper than that, I'm afraid, but that probably says a lot about me. I thought it was really good casting, actually, because I really... I thought it was great casting, like, really? Like, really? Like I just couldn't believe, you know? And just to expand on what you were saying, Nathan, about the way she leaves is that, I mean, it's not just the space not having space reasons. It's the fact that a companion leaving on their own terms, which can be for space reasons, but it's the fact that rather than the space reasons keeping them away from the doctor because there's an interdimensional rifter, whatever hell it is, um, it's because they've decided, have learnt so much from you. I've loved our time together, but I actually think I am more used to doing this now, being basically taking everything I've learnt from you and helping these other people here and I need to go and add big do and be an adult over here now. And I think that for me, that's what's most appealing. It's funny, the space reasons, uh, things that Russell does. He walks both of them back. And one of them more successfully than the other. Uh, you know, Billy gets a spare David Tennant. Spare David Tennant, because that's... And of course, Russell does make us wait 15 years or whatever, but eventually we resolve the Donna thing as well. So those are never particularly satisfactory. We had Moffat. Although Donna's a space reason, though. Yeah, but she's back. Do you know what I mean? It's kind of like, let's not do that. Let's actually just have her stay with another spare David Tennant. It's very traumatised. It's a very trial of a time, Lord 14. No, we shouldn't have done that. That's a bit Moffatt does that too. Ruby, the actress that Ruby is coming back, if not in the Christmas special, the next year. So they are just, unfortunately they are just going to undo it and she's going to be left with another spare David Tennant or something. Oh, Simon. That is not beyond the realms of possibility, Todd. Exactly. We'd all like a lot of things. That's, that's, that was, that was exactly what I thought when I heard Russell was coming back to produce the show. The one thing that I was disappointed you guys didn't pick up on last week, though, was the VHS tape and, you know, when they're in the time portal or whatever the hell it's quite time window. What was it called? Someone is actually, and this is kudos to whoever looked up, looked after this on the production, but they've actually put dropouts and things on the VHS. It actually looks like an enormous projected VHS tape, the kind that's been sitting around for a long while, so there are bits missing and there's a few jumps and so on like that. I read that as not the fact that it was distortion because of the time window because of the fact that it was a VHS. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah. Just even the quality of the image. I thought. Yes, yeah, yeah. Slightly smudgy and slightly musy, you know. Yeah. That whole sequence. Is that tape? I thought there was tapes for a second. I think this tape, oh, yeah. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah, yeah, yeah. You know, I reckon Steve Roberts was sitting at home saying, that's what it's like. That's what it like. So, Brendan. Yes. What about your season one, season one? Yeah, okay, right. So we're up to the reign of terror, of course. And look, for understandable reasons. Everyone's quite maudlin this week. But the big one is, in fact, related to Roger Appwilliam. who, of course, is the prime minister. And when the doctor turns up outside the office, He says, I was here when he was deposed. Well, who gets deposed at the end of Reign of Terror, but citizen Robespierre, who the doctor had previously been to sea, but he's not actually there when he's dragged out of the office. So we have that. And of course, you know, Robespierre is a complicated figure in French historical politics, but also has a long legacy and as soon as the doctor hears and things of the name Roger at William back in 73 yards, he's able to sort of rattle off everything he can do. Whereas, you know, Harriet Jones, he had to think about it for a few hours. And he's like, oh, I know that name's familiar. So, yeah, we have a significant historical figure being deposed from office and the doctor was somehow involved. Well known, Brendan. I just, look, I thought the sensor rights was going to be difficult. ended up having like 3 or four. Well, see, this is the end of the season, and so we'll be back this Christmas to see whether Stephen Moffat's up to writing a Christmas special or not. So we'll see you a couple of days after Christmas Day. And of course, if there's any urgent spinoff that suddenly gets released between now and then, I imagine we might be back for that. If you're interested in keeping up with the 2nd great and bountiful Human Empire news. You can follow us at FDE podcast on X or even better on Mastodon or Blue Sky. I'm just going to plug untitled Star Trek Project. This Friday's episode is Angel One, the Planet of Aggressive and Very Sexy Women, and a very, very, very important message about feminism, which is we're not remotely interested in it here at Star Trek the Next Generation. Brendan, do you have things that you want to plant? Uh, yes. So, um, this uh, we can just go on by. We are up to the cool war for the 3 handed game with the Avengers and we are looking at our 1st episode of the New Avengers, which is called Catch a Rat. So that's at the three-handed game. Meanwhile, over on my gaming podcast, BJ and I have gone on holiday to play the tourist, so that you can find at the BJBJ game show. And so you can keep up with us at flightsorentirety.com, of course uh, and on our website here, greatandbountiful.com, uh, or if you have a bit more time on your hands, the 2nd great and bountifulhuman empire.com, or even possibly Shooty summoned a hopeful dentate harbinger.com. Until next time, then, remember, you can wait nearly 44 years, and finally, a Doctor Who story comes along in which the planet Tigella is destroyed. So never stop hoping. Thank you very much for listening and good night. Good night. I can't even see Matilla Oriensis. I'll see you soon