The Giggle

[0:00]

Hello, dear listener, and welcome back to the 2nd great and bountiful Human Empire, the only Doctor Who flash cast where half of the hosts are recording in their underpants and the other half are going commando, and we'll let you imagine who's in which half.

I'm Nathan.

I'm Brendan.

I'm James.

And I'm Simon.

Well, so we watched yesterday the last of the 60th anniversary specials, The Giggle by RTD and directed by Chanya Button.

I'm going to go round the table and try not to think too hard about what everyone's wearing and we'll find out what people thought of it just overall.

How did you find it, Brendan?

Can I just ask, is the commando Colonel Ibrahim in this instance?

Because I am 100% behind that.

We've had a hot unit commander in 2 out of 3 of these.

Yeah, it's a pattern, I think.

Yeah.

I had misgivings.

[01:01]

I thought, oh, hold on.

What don't I like?

Oh, I'm not entirely clear.

And so when I watched it again, it's like, right.

I'm going to watch this particular section very clearly to see if it says what I think it says, I'm like, oh, it does.

Okay.

So my 2nd time through.

I was able to enjoy it a lot more.

There was like a few hours between those where I'm just kind of sitting there going, I'm not sure I like that.

Not, no.

Mm.

What did you think, James?

Uh, look, I really liked it.

Uh, I was expecting a lot of what happened in the story.

But I was pleasantly surprised in how it was managed.

The performances were just so enjoyable.

Uh, and we'll get to this later in the episode, of course, but, um, duty amazing.

And and yeah, look, I mean, we knew, I think we most of us knew a lot of what was coming in this story.

Uh, a lot of it had been spoiled um, over the last year, but not to extent that it ruined the enjoyment of the episode.

[02:10]

So overall, I was, yeah, there were moments when I was in, I was crying.

There were moments when I was punching the air, uh, and I, yeah, I was really pleasantly surprised.

Simon.

Well, I don't feel I was particularly spoiled.

Maybe I don't spend enough time online or maybe that means I spend the correct amount of time online.

I don't know, but I thought it was really, really good.

You know, I mean, obviously I have a few reservations on a couple of things, but they're at the periphery.

The whole episode for me is about the fantastic performance of Neil Patrick Harris and just the quality of that performance and the detail he brings to so many parts of it is just so wonderful.

And what's great is to have a humanoid villain on the right side of the chewing the scenery line.

Yes, he's big.

Yes, he's chewing the scenery.

Yes, he's showering off and doing everything, but I am carried along with it absolutely every step of the way and that, for me, absolutely makes the episode.

[03:10]

So I'm prepared to eat my words and the reservations I had about sort of RTD to from last week and this week, whilst again there are some peripheral things that, you know, I wish were a bit different.

I had 2 of the best weeks of my Doctor Who life.

Oh, wonderful.

I thought it was really tremendous.

I was slightly spoiled because I had the idea that we weren't going to say goodbye to the 14th doctor. finally.

But that was really all that I knew.

And otherwise I was kind of largely unspoiled except for what I'd seen in the trailers and things like that.

So that's exactly the right amount of spoiled, I think.

But yes, it exceeded my expectations.

It was very, very clever.

And it did a thing which I'll talk about a little bit later, which I think is long overdue in New Doctor Who, and which I'm really looking forward to playing out over the next few years.

Let's talk about the beginning.

I think there's a few things that happen in this episode, and I want to talk about just the very beginning when we were 1st introduced to the toymaker in that opening scene back in 1925.

[04:13]

What do you think about how the Toymaker gets introduced to us and how he works as a character in this context?

What about you, Simon?

The kind of comedy German accent where at 1st you're going, oh, is this actually going where I want it to go, is quickly papered over by the fact that, you know, the other guy into your accent when he's kind of changing.

So he's definitely playing that up.

It's creepy.

Neil Patrick Harris owns the screen the 2nd he steps onto it.

It's that great typical old style mysterious opening to a Doctor Who story.

So I really loved it.

Brendan?

Yes, I very much enjoyed that 1st scene.

And I think one of the lines that just made me chuckle was, it is raining here with all this delicious splashing on the pavement.

I want to know how much, sorry, Brandon, I want to know how much of that was actually scripted and how much of that is, is Adelaide.

Totally.

Yeah, there is an interview with Neil Patrick on YouTube just saying this is unlike anything I've ever done.

[05:18]

I'm like, well, don't puppetry.

I done juggling.

I done dancing, I've done singing.

I've never done them all in the one production.

James?

What I love, what I love about that scene is that they are taking a character who has been problematically racist in the past because of production decisions and making him deliberately racist to show that he is evil.

That horrible comment about you, you know, oh, you're used to sunny at times.

It's it's basically hanging a lantern on it and and also saying this person is doing this because they are.

I've asked it, basically.

I mean, I think that the interesting thing is that the original toymaker isn't played in Yellowface and Michael Goff doesn't do an accent, but what it is doing is what Professor Lightfoot's character does in talons of Wing Chiang or what his family does, they appropriate, you know, the culture of the place that they've kind of invaded and colonised or been involved in that.

[06:21]

And I gather that, um, Russell himself made some comment in unleashed about kind of the idea of making the toy maker, a racist as kind of a way of, a way of making him useable, I think, in the current day.

And I think he works incredibly well.

You know, his evil posh English accent was the accent that he does that I liked the best, I think.

Although he's American, you know, I guess that's okay then during the puppet show was also pretty great.

That's actually the most the most dark part of his accents, actually.

It's it's, but I guess that's all right then. is actually the darkest thing.

Look, I mean, I sort of, I'm not prepared to sort of agree or disagree with anything that you said there, James, because I think that we don't really care.

You can't solve all of the deliberate or accidental bits of racism from the show's history, particularly from the show's early history.

And I think that doing what they did in this just gives enough of a little nod to the concerns that some of the audience will have to say that, look, we know what your concern is, and look, where we've tried to address it here, without making the whole thing about it, because that would have just been utterly dumb.

[07:33]

Yeah, exactly.

I think that's the right level to pitch that.

Yeah, yeah.

So let's move on to the unit show.

And for those people who are hoping for a unit spinoff.

That's almost what this looked like.

It was a back door pilot for.

I'm still not convinced that our unit's been off has legs, but I do think that this is a version of unit that we will actually see going forward.

And of course, we see them investigating the mysterious sound that has turned all of humanity into a YouTube comment section.

So what did we think about that?

Yeah, look, I quite like the unit set.

I think as an ongoing set for a TV series.

You kind of got a massive set with about 10 people sitting behind desks in it.

But, you know, all looking at a screen.

It's the Star Trek, the original series problem of everyone's hunched over their consoles waiting for something to happen.

[08:34]

But that being said, I like this group of people.

I like Kate Lithbridge Stewart and it looks like someone said to her, can you act a little bit more, please?

Peter can't be with us tonight, but I'd love to hear his thoughts on the performance.

Of course, I love Ruth Madely as Shirley.

Melt back.

No, Mel, let's go.

Yes.

It's, that's, and that's amazing.

And, you know, we know that Aces don't work for Unit and Tegan's don't work for Unit and Kate offered everyone a job at Companions Anonymous a few weeks ago.

So, and then you've got, yeah, silly robot man.

Yeah, what the hell's that?

It's the Links.

Was I supposed to know what was I supposed to know what that was?

No, you see, good.

It's deliberately there and I'm hoping that it's an ongoing character that he's literally never explained to us and that it's just this sort of robot that they have and we have literally no idea.

[09:36]

It's the morn from Deep Space 9 of this version of unit, and I think that that would be actually pretty gray.

It is very funny.

Russell is already on record as saying that character will return. in an upgraded form.

So perhaps able to actually move.

It did look like it was the cheapest part of the entire thing, if I may say.

But I have to say puppets.

I puppet villains.

I want there to be more puppet villains.

You like the return of the puppets, do you?

puppets.

Heaps of puppets this episode.

All little creatures from the end of colony in space kind of thing.

Russell was saying in interviews and hospital, so unleashed this week that originally, as scripted, the villain of this story is Spooky Bill.

And he got quite far through the drafting process before he realised, this isn't working.

I cannot have this puppet menacing David Turner on a rooftop. 50 floors up.

[10:43]

What can I do?

He's a puppet or I need a puppet pasta.

Maybe a toy maker.

And also the idea of villainous puppets and a villainous toy maker is in the zeitgeist at the moment.

You have the Annabelle movies.

You have Megan, which, you know, I know that's an automaton rather than a puppet, but it's in the zeitgeist.

But yeah, I think we're definitely seeing a bit of that.

Yeah.

Did everyone else jump when the puppet's mouth dropped open?

It's forcibly to believe it.

No, exactly.

But isn't that isn't that something always freaky about those very primitive early television.

Whatever it is, whether it's a real person or a puppet.

It just makes it so demonic and strange looking.

It apparently didn't catch fire the 1st time it was used and it was used in sort of public demonstrations of television, but it did eventually get sort of horribly singed. incineration by Wikipedia, whether it was human hair or not.

Which.

[11:45]

But the other thing that I thought worked really well was just them working out exactly what the giggle was and having Donna work it out because she's clever, having Mel sing some arpeggios for us after all these years, she's never sung on the show.

Using that wonderful musical theatre training.

Yes.

That's right.

Yeah, so I thought all of that was really just terrifically fun.

Isn't it wonderful to have Neil Patrick Harris do that whole Spice Schools routine?

you know, using part as he said, he uses every single skill that he has in the one piece of television drama and he just dances that so absolutely beautifully.

And and it's shot like a video clip because you, you know, you'll cut to another shot and he'll be in that shot as well. suddenly be there.

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

There's no logic.

There's no logic to how people are moving about.

He said, he said, he said to the production team.

So you got me doing a lot.

I mean, I can do this and I can do that and, you know, like, I can do puppets, I can juggle, like, um, I think I can dance.

[12:48]

I mean, I can dance, but I've not had any lessons.

Well, he said, That's why we employed you, too.

I particularly love about that that dance thing.

You know, you know that Bonnie did all those spins herself and then they just had to speed it up a bit.

And on 2nd viewing, on 2nd viewing, during those spins, I can just hear a little bit of a scream in the key of F. Just...

It didn't take phantom that long to actually put that scream over the top and post it to Twitter.

Marvel.

Of course. absolutely marvellous.

We're clearly back in 2023 now.

And it's not very long before the toy maker actually kills the doctor.

And I have to say that that did take me by surprise because we're about 20 minutes from the end of the episode then.

Were people expecting that or not?

[13:49]

I wasn't, although I didn't have the little timer thing on the screen, so I didn't know how far into it I was.

I was actually a bit surprised that it happened sort of so suddenly because it did feel a bit, um, I don't feel like I've had a climax quite the climax yet from that point of view, but then it kind of, of course, the climax is then yet to come.

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

I was expecting it.

That's because I had a brain fart moment. on Sunday morning and clicked on Facebook before watching the episode and saw the scene of them splitting in half and looking at each other.

It's like, damn you.

Damn it.

I mean I knew it was coming.

I'd heard.

They're so inconsiderate and annoying.

I heard the split regeneration rumour, so I kind of knew it was coming. and then I saw it, I was like, 0 my, I mean, like, I knew it was coming.

But also it was just so frustrating, but that didn't spoil the scene.

Now the thing is, I'd heard about the split regeneration thing, but I hadn't heard about it actually sort of emerging from the same body, what have you?

[14:58]

So that moment did still take me by surprise and it was only when he's like, could you?

Oh, that I thought, oh, my god, like they're literally going to like pull them apart like a one of those American cheese string things.

Yeah, yeah.

So I got a little bit.

I got a little bit of surprise from that, thankfully, but, you know, Russell had also said a few months ago, you don't have to wait for Christmas to see Chutie.

Shooty will be in the specials and I kind of went, just my immediate thought was, oh, this is interesting.

We're kind of doing the reverse of the telly movie where one doctor has 2 thirds of the beginning and then the next doctor picks up straight away and yeah, it wasn't quite like that.

I would have preferred it if it had been more like that because I think it would have been better if it had happened earlier.

Um, and can I can I venture my little critique of this now?

Or is this not the right time?

No, no, no.

I don't have a problem with the bi-generation stuff or bi-regeneration, whatever it is, fine.

[16:00]

It's a thing.

And it's, I think it's interesting to have both actors.

And it's a way of doing sort of a mini multi-dog story.

I wondered whether, in hindsight, it was unfortunate, because usually what happens is that the previous doctor explodes in a, in whatever bunch of light, and then suddenly he or she is the next doctor.

And I've always instantly accepted that person is the doctor, even though I already knew who it was going to be.

But you instantly accept it.

The problem with doing it this way is that Tenant is still there.

And so I think that it cheats shooty of that moment of those early moments where he owns the role.

So I think if you're going to do this, maybe another way of doing it, is for a start, have it a little bit earlier in the plot, maybe during the 1st game that, that, um, you know, when, when it's won all, that the doctor has with the toy maker, and, and the tenant doctor is then knocked unconscious by the bi-generation process, so that then you have shoot his moments in the sun for 10 minutes, however long it is, and then tenant comes to, and they can have the multi-doctor bit for the rest of the episode.

[17:04]

I just worry that Chooty's been cheated of that full strength to boo.

That all.

Except that he absolutely outdoes Tenant immediately right from the get go and makes himself his doctor much, much more exciting than Tenant's doctor.

Yeah, no, no, I'll pay that, yeah.

Yeah, I mean, it's a little bit like, you know, bringing Tom Baker into a pertwee story for for Robot.

And, you know, he's got pert to his show around him, but he's just much better than everyone else in it.

And so we're fine.

We're going to be okay with this new doctor.

And I think I think that Shooty here isn't better than everyone else around him, but because Tennant chooses graciously, I think, to downplay it and allow Shooty to have the floor.

And also because that doctor's character is so kind of beleaguered and tired and sort of miserable.

You know, he told us at the end of wild blue yonder that he would get better, but it would take a 1000000 years before he felt any better.

[18:08]

And, you know, you have Donna stopping him saying, you're staggering from place to place now.

And so he's a much less charismatic character because he's so beleaguered, I think.

And then when Judy comes along and isn't any of those things, it's such a relief.

It's so wonderful.

And so instantly Tennant takes the place of the past doctor.

He's suddenly John Pertey and the 5 doctors instead of being the lead of this episode.

And I thought that that was really well done.

I think that's a fair enough view to a taken from it.

I just still felt, even though Shooty's much more dynamic from the get go, and tenant's kind of more retiring for one of a better description, it's because tenant is already there, tenant is established, that's what I'm talking about.

Like it feels it feels too much like this character rather than the next doctor.

It was just my takeaway from it.

See, I also have this thing.

You know, in a Christmas carol where um, Catherine Sardic hugs young Catherine Sardic. like he goes to hit him.

[19:12]

He goes to hit his younger self, and sees the younger self flinch, and then hugs him, and there's that moment, and having Shooty be able to kind of help tenant through, you know, tenant's the man who regrets, and he's talking about the people who've died, that hilarious comedy moment where Kate says, where are all the staff on the, on the big laser gun?

And, And Neil Patrick Harris says, I think they're still falling.

And then you hear the sound of the...

That's dark.

That's very good.

And so you have shooty comforting him and making it okay for him, I think.

And all of that where Shooty comes not just to save the day, but to save the doctor.

I think that's pretty good.

My misgivings are similar to yours, Simon, for the 1st time I watched it through, because all the way through Jody's tenure, there's all these crossovers in comics, video games, and Time Lord Victorious, where Tenant is put in front of Jody.

[20:18]

And then, of course, she turns into him.

And I'm like, really starting off, Shooty Gatwaz era with a spare David Tennant over in the corner that we can wheel out.

It was actually the 2nd go around where it becomes very clear that, no, the intention is, the 14th doctor can retire and take it easy because the 15th doctor carries on the work.

But, but it's actually more nuanced than that, is that the 14th doctor, all of the memories that he will have before he eventually regenerates, are with the 15th doctor.

I'm okay because you healed yourself.

Like, he remembers everything to that doctor.

That doctor is retiring with his adopted family and going through the process of healing from the last, what is it, 4.5000000 years?

[21:19]

I didn't notice that the 1st time, the 2nd time around, it's very clear that he's actually saying, you know, you did the healing and that's why I'm okay.

And the production team have gone on record basically saying that bi-generation did not just happen to the 14th doctor.

It happened to every incarnation of the doctor to the very beginning of the show.

So there is now a split reality where William Hartnell goes on at the end of 10th planet.

Patrick Towson on earth.

Like, it's, it's created a, what Russell referred to as the doctor verse.

I actually don't care.

Like, I mean, it was very nice.

And if they want to do, you know, big finish audios on that basis, fabulous.

You know, that's the extended universe.

But sometimes I wish people wouldn't put too much thought into these things because what matches is who they're going to cast to be the doctor in each of the seasons as we move forward and who they do or don't invite to come back.

I think the show works best probably if Tennant doesn't come back again, even though we get it hinted at that with his family, he's sneaking off.

[22:27]

I mean, we've already got one in the parallel universe, for God's sake.

Yeah, I know, we're just leaving copies of tenants all over the place all through time.

Oh well.

But I like that point, James, which I picked up as well, which is, and it's said with the most moffety line imaginable. you know, we're time lords, we don't do rehab in the right order.

And so shooty goes off, enjoying the new outlook on the show that was one because Tenant stays behind and has an adopted family and Mad Auntie Mel and all of that, which.

Oh, look, I'm just looking forward to the big finish box set with the 14th doctor and Mad Auntie Mel in that 20s New York.

Yes. absolutely.

So good.

So good.

Get up and take my money.

But I just wanted to say that the incredible thing was was shooty's performance and how immediately sort of sexy he makes that moment where they're splitting off and they're kind of sharing a body and they're facing one another.

[23:42]

You know, he's smiling super broadly and all of that and just kind of how relaxed.

You know, he's in his underpants for that entire 15 minutes because he gets half a turn.

The rest of the show.

So so he gets the shoes.

I mean, if you got it flaunted, I say.

He's got great spites.

He's got extraordinary thighs.

He does a lot of squats.

Evidently.

It's like, I mean, he's so relaxed and so sexy, and I think the thing for me that this has done is something that I think Chibnal tried to do, but backtracked on because he couldn't make it work.

But ever since Doctor Who came back in 2005, the doctor's been a tragic hero in some sense, and so it's been the time war, then we fix the time war, and then it's, am I a good man?

And I remember when Capoldi left the stage and and Jody Whittaker turned up and she looked at herself in the mirror and said, brilliant.

[24:46]

You know, I don't hate myself. this is the best thing ever And I thought, this is the era of man pain over.

And of course, it wasn't because Chibnell destroyed Gallifrey again, just to put Jody into a Marty mood for series 12.

But I think that very much, Russell, now is going to do a version of Doctor Who, where the doctor isn't constantly saddled with this sort of terrible angst and where we get to see him and Ruby having fun.

I'm looking forward to that.

I will pay that.

I think that's great. if that's where we're going because I am really sick of the angst.

My worry is, of course, they'll do that for 3 episodes and then there'll be a new angst thing to introduce, you know, because sometimes these people can't help themselves.

He does touch on this thing in all 3 of the of these specials.

Do you know what I mean?

All 3 of the specials are working towards the moment where the doctor decides to stay behind with Donna and heal.

And I think that absolutely that this is indicative of where Russell wants to take the show.

[25:51]

Yeah.

And, you know, that's juxtaposed with Donna, you know, we find out she's given away all her money, uh, et cetera, et cetera.

But she keeps reiterating how happy she is.

She's got a caring husband.

She's got a beautiful daughter.

She's got a better relationship with her, mom, her granddad's being looked after.

Despite the problems of real life, which she alludes to with the doctor saying, I'll go mad.

And she's like, yeah, it does drive you mad, but you've got this amazing life while it drives you mad.

It's kind of a closure.

I didn't know I needed for Donna because, you know, when we see Donna previously, it's like she's got a lottery win and she's marrying Sean and everything's fine.

It's like, yeah, except she's lost this thing and then we, you know, we come back and she's given away all the money.

Um, It's then this message that she still has the life she chose, making her very, very happy.

There's that brilliant moment where Kate offers her a job for 60 K a year and Donna just says 100 K and 5 weeks off and she gets it and she just, oh, my good.

[27:01]

Yeah.

Whereas I think Kate's going, the salary is 100, but I'll tell her 60 and she won't take.

For that brilliant moment as well in that scene with Donna and Mel working together on the computers, you know, fastest type of in choosing.

But she could also code.

That's some secretarial, Collie.

Well, remember, she does subconsciously tap the knowledge of the doctor.

That is true.

Yes, of course.

Oh, yeah.

Yeah, remember, way back in Journey's End, she can realign the Dalek path web quicker than anyone.

Yeah.

I'd just delete that period of the show from my memory.

Wow.

That's the one you delete.

Yeah, that's right.

Season 20 is right there.

All right.

Well, in that case, I'm just going to plug a few things.

We have our FDE series 9 coverage, which finished on Sunday.

[28:01]

So you can catch up with that.

It was our series 9 retrospective.

And of course, on Christmas Day, we will be releasing the Christmas special, the Husbands of River Song.

Startling Barbara Bain continues to exist, and there's every chance we'll record an episode at the end of this month.

And of course, maximum power is continuing to release series C episodes, and untitled Star Trek project has ended a triumphant year with a commentary on Star Trek for the Voyage Home.

And of course, we will be back here at the 2nd great and Bountiful Human Empire sometime very soon after Christmas and the Christmas special, the church on Ruby Road.

All that remains is for me to say, until next time, you probably need to stop buying bone broth and synthetic androgen supplements from Trinity Wells.

Thank you very much for listening and good night.

Good night.

See you soon.

Bye bye.

[29:03]

Trinity Wells.

She's back.

That's amazing.