WEBVTT NOTE This transcript was created on 2026-05-02 at 15:32:48 1 00:00:00.000 --> 00:00:02.700 Hello, dear listener, and welcome back to the 2nd great and 2 00:00:02.700 --> 00:00:06.780 bountiful Human Empire, the only dogs who flash cast in possession 3 00:00:06.780 --> 00:00:09.720 of a good fortune, which must be in want of a bird. 4 00:00:09.900 --> 00:00:11.880 I'm Nathan. 5 00:00:11.939 --> 00:00:13.080 I'm Brendan. 6 00:00:13.140 --> 00:00:14.400 I'm James. 7 00:00:14.460 --> 00:00:15.660 I'm Simon. 8 00:00:15.720 --> 00:00:17.039 And I'm Todd. 9 00:00:17.100 --> 00:00:23.399 So, uh, we're here today to discuss season one episode probably 10 00:00:23.399 --> 00:00:29.160 six, uh, depending on whether you're Disney or the BBC. 11 00:00:29.219 --> 00:00:35.820 It is Rogue, written by Kate Heron and Bryney Redmond, and 12 00:00:35.820 --> 00:00:40.320 directed by Ben Chessel, who we saw earlier this season doing the 13 00:00:40.320 --> 00:00:42.299 devil's chord. 14 00:00:42.359 --> 00:00:46.500 I want to start with just a quick sort of round of general 15 00:00:46.500 --> 00:00:47.700 impressions. 16 00:00:47.759 --> 00:00:51.179 This might be a good place for your mark out of 10 or your 17 00:00:51.179 --> 00:00:53.579 feelings about the episode generally. 18 00:00:53.579 --> 00:00:56.100 I think I have to start with Todd after saying that. 19 00:00:56.460 --> 00:01:01.500 I have to say, any episode that surprises me with Kylie in such a 20 00:01:01.500 --> 00:01:05.939 delightful way is going to get lots of plus points and I enjoyed 21 00:01:05.939 --> 00:01:09.299 the whole thing thoroughly, at least an 8 out of 10 for me. 22 00:01:09.359 --> 00:01:10.260 Brilliant. 23 00:01:10.319 --> 00:01:11.519 What about you, Brendan? 24 00:01:12.060 --> 00:01:13.980 I'm with Todd. 25 00:01:14.040 --> 00:01:14.939 It's an 8 out of 10. 26 00:01:15.239 --> 00:01:19.859 The only place it loses points is I felt it repeated some ideas 27 00:01:19.859 --> 00:01:24.000 from Captain Jack and River, but not enough for it to sort of bore 28 00:01:24.000 --> 00:01:26.040 me or me to go, oh, we've seen this before. 29 00:01:26.099 --> 00:01:26.760 I get it. 30 00:01:26.819 --> 00:01:30.180 It's kind of a shorthand, but yeah, it's a solid 8 out of 10 from 31 00:01:30.180 --> 00:01:30.299 me. 32 00:01:30.480 --> 00:01:32.640 What about you, Simon? 33 00:01:33.060 --> 00:01:34.920 Well, goodness me. 34 00:01:34.980 --> 00:01:36.780 I might even say 8.5 out of 10. 35 00:01:36.959 --> 00:01:39.599 I think there is there is there is gas. 36 00:01:39.659 --> 00:01:43.079 There is much to love about this episode, including, and 37 00:01:43.079 --> 00:01:46.319 particularly the way it's made, you know, the structure of it with 38 00:01:46.319 --> 00:01:49.680 that wonderful cold open, it just drags you in. 39 00:01:49.739 --> 00:01:51.420 It's just fantastic. 40 00:01:51.480 --> 00:01:54.180 The costuming, it's so great that we have a doctor who enjoys 41 00:01:54.180 --> 00:01:56.219 dressing up when he goes into the past. 42 00:01:56.340 --> 00:01:59.099 There is much to like about it. 43 00:01:59.159 --> 00:02:02.519 It's not perfect, and we'll come to those little niggling 44 00:02:02.519 --> 00:02:05.459 annoyances later, but no, I was engaged throughout the entire 45 00:02:05.459 --> 00:02:06.900 thing and charmed. 46 00:02:06.959 --> 00:02:08.460 And James. 47 00:02:08.580 --> 00:02:12.780 Oh, look, I think this is my favourite episode of the season so 48 00:02:12.780 --> 00:02:13.080 far. 49 00:02:13.139 --> 00:02:19.979 Um, and that's not to say, structurally, it's the best or the, I 50 00:02:19.979 --> 00:02:20.699 it's just so much fun. 51 00:02:20.759 --> 00:02:23.639 I think fun is what sums it up for me. 52 00:02:23.699 --> 00:02:27.840 I was just smiling with glee the entire episode. 53 00:02:27.900 --> 00:02:32.819 Even, even the, the, sort of, more serious bits. 54 00:02:32.879 --> 00:02:34.319 I was like, 0 my god, they're going there. 55 00:02:34.379 --> 00:02:38.639 Or just like, yeah, oh, fantastic, fantastic. really enjoyed it. 56 00:02:38.699 --> 00:02:40.259 Nathan, what about you? 57 00:02:40.979 --> 00:02:44.460 Well, I actually really, really enjoyed it as well. 58 00:02:44.460 --> 00:02:47.340 And I find I found myself falling for all of the episodes 59 00:02:47.340 --> 00:02:48.479 intrigues as well. 60 00:02:48.539 --> 00:02:49.500 I'm kind of going, what? 61 00:02:49.620 --> 00:02:51.060 So, no, Ruby's not dead. 62 00:02:51.120 --> 00:02:51.840 Is Ruby dead? 63 00:02:51.900 --> 00:02:53.639 Are we getting another face, the raven moment? 64 00:02:53.699 --> 00:02:54.360 What's happening here? 65 00:02:54.419 --> 00:02:56.099 And all of that sort of stuff? 66 00:02:56.159 --> 00:02:59.099 Like, I just completely fell for it in every way. 67 00:02:59.159 --> 00:03:01.979 And I love romance. 68 00:03:02.099 --> 00:03:05.099 We'll talk about that a little bit later because I think it's 69 00:03:05.099 --> 00:03:08.520 super central, but it's a genre that I really enjoy and obviously 70 00:03:08.520 --> 00:03:10.860 it works in this sort of historical setting. 71 00:03:10.919 --> 00:03:13.800 And the other thing that I thought was really great was just the 72 00:03:13.800 --> 00:03:17.039 artificiality of it, that we have people fighting, like our 73 00:03:17.039 --> 00:03:22.979 monsters want to have the best guest role in the show, and that's 74 00:03:22.979 --> 00:03:24.360 kind of what they're fighting over. 75 00:03:24.419 --> 00:03:29.159 And the whole thing is designed to create a TV show for our 76 00:03:29.159 --> 00:03:29.699 amusement. 77 00:03:29.759 --> 00:03:31.500 It's the thing that the children do. 78 00:03:31.560 --> 00:03:35.099 So I thought it was really fun and funny and clever. 79 00:03:35.159 --> 00:03:37.740 And I thought the romance landed just spectacularly. 80 00:03:37.860 --> 00:03:40.259 Let's talk about Bridgerton. 81 00:03:40.319 --> 00:03:42.599 Has anyone here watched Bridgerton? 82 00:03:42.659 --> 00:03:43.860 Yes. 83 00:03:43.860 --> 00:03:44.460 I confess. 84 00:03:45.060 --> 00:03:46.919 Because I confess I've never actually watched it. 85 00:03:46.979 --> 00:03:47.759 Yeah, not me. 86 00:03:47.819 --> 00:03:51.840 That being said, the current, the current season's trailers have 87 00:03:51.840 --> 00:03:52.800 me very intrigued. 88 00:03:52.860 --> 00:03:57.479 So it's just possible despite what she says that Ruby doesn't 89 00:03:57.479 --> 00:04:00.539 watch Bridgerton, otherwise she would have recognised Jocelyn from 90 00:04:00.539 --> 00:04:04.979 Space Babies. as Queen Charlotte from Regent. 91 00:04:06.840 --> 00:04:11.580 Um, But I have watched Bridgerton and Bridgerton is very much 92 00:04:11.580 --> 00:04:15.360 about that, you know, one of the things, one of the things that we 93 00:04:15.360 --> 00:04:19.980 said last week, I think, was that we were doing the race thing in 94 00:04:19.980 --> 00:04:25.439 episode 5 in space and that it meant we would be unlikely to do it 95 00:04:25.439 --> 00:04:27.240 in the Bridgerton episode. 96 00:04:27.300 --> 00:04:30.060 And one of the things that Bridgerton is famous for is, of course 97 00:04:30.060 --> 00:04:31.259 the colourblind casting. 98 00:04:31.319 --> 00:04:35.519 And so we do kind of just do that. 99 00:04:35.579 --> 00:04:39.720 We don't go for a 2nd episode in a row with an all white guest 100 00:04:39.720 --> 00:04:44.639 cast and we just let that happen and do other things. 101 00:04:44.699 --> 00:04:47.160 And in fact, it's much more about queerness. 102 00:04:47.220 --> 00:04:49.740 I think that it is about race. 103 00:04:49.800 --> 00:04:54.180 Um, so I think all of that stuff, you know, I've got a lot to say 104 00:04:54.180 --> 00:04:57.899 when it comes time to talk about this on flight through entirety 105 00:04:57.899 --> 00:05:02.879 um, because just of the artificiality of the past and the way that 106 00:05:02.879 --> 00:05:06.060 it really leans into that and has the characters willingly 107 00:05:06.060 --> 00:05:10.740 participating, in creating a dramatic artificial setting, which I 108 00:05:10.740 --> 00:05:11.459 think is really fun. 109 00:05:12.240 --> 00:05:15.120 How did we feel about the Chuldor? 110 00:05:15.420 --> 00:05:19.920 Uh, I think they've very effectively realised with the exception 111 00:05:19.920 --> 00:05:22.800 of the blue one, which was really distracting me. 112 00:05:22.860 --> 00:05:23.939 No, the blue one. 113 00:05:24.000 --> 00:05:27.959 There was something about it, which made it look like velvet, like 114 00:05:27.959 --> 00:05:33.420 that blue head was... was just terribly off-putting for me. 115 00:05:33.480 --> 00:05:37.740 But no, I really liked the idea of them. 116 00:05:37.800 --> 00:05:41.100 Yeah, just wanting to have fun, almost like the eternals, like 117 00:05:41.100 --> 00:05:45.720 they're just kind of, um, um, passing the time by by taking over 118 00:05:45.720 --> 00:05:48.540 other people's bodies and okay, that person gets killed, but um 119 00:05:48.540 --> 00:05:49.560 they don't really care. 120 00:05:49.620 --> 00:05:52.259 I don't think it was necessary that suddenly everything was 121 00:05:52.259 --> 00:05:55.620 heightened towards the end when what they were going to destroy 122 00:05:55.620 --> 00:05:57.660 the effectively destroy the entire world. 123 00:05:57.720 --> 00:05:58.500 Yeah. 124 00:05:58.500 --> 00:06:00.060 By the time they finished. 125 00:06:00.120 --> 00:06:03.600 I actually thought that was, not just unnecessary, but I think 126 00:06:03.600 --> 00:06:07.980 that actually detracted from the kind of the, what I wanted them 127 00:06:07.980 --> 00:06:10.019 to be, which was kind of just much more carefree. 128 00:06:10.500 --> 00:06:13.620 I mean they were going to have fun doing it, weren't they? 129 00:06:13.680 --> 00:06:16.620 They were going to sort of start wars with Portugal and stuff. for 130 00:06:16.620 --> 00:06:18.720 fun and maybe be the king. 131 00:06:18.779 --> 00:06:23.639 I think the stakes needed to be high so that Ruby sacrificing 132 00:06:23.639 --> 00:06:28.560 herself worked or the doctor refusing to, you know, had to refute 133 00:06:28.560 --> 00:06:29.459 had to stop them, you know. 134 00:06:29.519 --> 00:06:32.639 Yeah, I don't know because that's I think, I mean, the most 135 00:06:32.639 --> 00:06:36.000 obvious comparison for me is girl in the fireplace. this episode. 136 00:06:36.060 --> 00:06:38.519 And I think one of the reasons, one of the many reasons I 137 00:06:38.519 --> 00:06:41.639 absolutely love that episode is because there isn't actually 138 00:06:41.639 --> 00:06:44.220 anything at stake apart from the life of one woman. 139 00:06:44.279 --> 00:06:48.540 And I think if they'd have kept it to that, I think if Ruby had 140 00:06:48.540 --> 00:06:52.199 been wanting to sacrifice itself because of the doctor, so the 141 00:06:52.199 --> 00:06:54.120 doctor and Rogue can do their thing. 142 00:06:54.180 --> 00:06:56.819 I think that would have been a much more nicer thing rather than 143 00:06:56.819 --> 00:06:59.579 because, you know, we're going to go to war with Portugal or the 144 00:06:59.579 --> 00:07:01.800 whole world's going to be consumed by this, you know, it's kind of 145 00:07:01.800 --> 00:07:03.240 like, yeah, yeah, I just don't care about that. 146 00:07:03.300 --> 00:07:04.800 Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. 147 00:07:04.860 --> 00:07:05.220 Yeah. 148 00:07:05.279 --> 00:07:06.720 What do you think, Brendan? 149 00:07:06.779 --> 00:07:10.860 Yeah, I'm I'm a little I'm a little bit with Simon on this one. you 150 00:07:10.860 --> 00:07:15.240 know, I loved I love the design and I think, um, children of 1990 151 00:07:15.240 --> 00:07:18.060 Zelda games and James is going to know what I'm talking about. 152 00:07:18.120 --> 00:07:20.519 We have an aversion to owls who talk too much. 153 00:07:23.160 --> 00:07:31.560 But, uh, I think, I think for me, is it's a bit like in Ghostlight 154 00:07:31.560 --> 00:07:34.800 where Josiah is suddenly, and I'm going to kill Queen Victoria. 155 00:07:34.800 --> 00:07:38.160 Yeah, you don't care. 156 00:07:38.220 --> 00:07:41.579 It's like we're escalating the stakes. 157 00:07:41.639 --> 00:07:41.939 Why? 158 00:07:42.000 --> 00:07:42.480 Shut up. 159 00:07:42.540 --> 00:07:43.019 That's why. 160 00:07:43.500 --> 00:07:46.439 You know, I'm swept along with it. 161 00:07:46.500 --> 00:07:48.240 It doesn't affect my enjoyment. 162 00:07:48.300 --> 00:07:50.939 But yeah, it also, it almost would have been nice if their whole 163 00:07:50.939 --> 00:07:53.339 thing was just, no, we're just going to go around and kill people 164 00:07:53.339 --> 00:07:54.540 at garden parties. 165 00:07:54.959 --> 00:07:59.100 And maybe maybe, yeah, and maybe you can get rogue going. 166 00:07:59.160 --> 00:08:01.139 Actually, France have got a similar idea right now. 167 00:08:01.199 --> 00:08:02.100 I'm just saying. 168 00:08:03.480 --> 00:08:05.519 Tips the wrong country. 169 00:08:05.759 --> 00:08:08.040 What do you think, Todd? 170 00:08:08.100 --> 00:08:10.139 As a Bridgerton afficionado? 171 00:08:10.259 --> 00:08:12.600 What do you call myself an aficiado? 172 00:08:12.600 --> 00:08:16.980 It was just so much fun and it looked so it was shot so well. 173 00:08:17.040 --> 00:08:21.959 It just, it was just, Glamorous is not the word I want to use. 174 00:08:22.019 --> 00:08:25.680 It was, it just had this feel about it, whether you were inside or 175 00:08:25.680 --> 00:08:30.000 outside majestic, and I just was drawn into it, and the 176 00:08:30.000 --> 00:08:35.039 performance is not only of the characters in terms of the real 177 00:08:35.039 --> 00:08:40.559 characters, like the cold open with that very nasty but hot lord. 178 00:08:40.620 --> 00:08:43.860 And then the lady her, um, what's her name? 179 00:08:43.860 --> 00:08:46.080 Indira, um... 180 00:08:46.139 --> 00:08:48.539 And like, she wasn't a nice person either. 181 00:08:48.600 --> 00:08:52.259 Like, they were actually not, like, it was all this intrigue and 182 00:08:52.259 --> 00:08:54.659 you know, the season and all that sort of stuff, and then they 183 00:08:54.659 --> 00:08:57.059 were replaced with people who were determined to even go one step 184 00:08:57.059 --> 00:08:57.480 further. 185 00:08:57.539 --> 00:08:59.700 I just, the funness and all of that. 186 00:08:59.759 --> 00:09:00.899 I'm still smiling. 187 00:09:00.960 --> 00:09:05.519 Like, it probably is my, could possibly be my, like I said, eight 188 00:09:05.519 --> 00:09:08.639 but I, you know, You're talking yourself up. 189 00:09:08.700 --> 00:09:11.879 I threw myself up, but I just enjoyed the whole thing. 190 00:09:11.940 --> 00:09:16.139 The last 3 weeks, I've enjoyed all of those episodes, but they've 191 00:09:16.139 --> 00:09:21.299 all been either Dr. Light for a reason or, or, um, in the doctor 192 00:09:21.299 --> 00:09:24.720 in a particular, in one position. 193 00:09:24.779 --> 00:09:27.539 So we had constraints, whereas this didn't have those 194 00:09:27.539 --> 00:09:28.440 constraints. 195 00:09:28.500 --> 00:09:30.960 So I just enjoyed the whole spectacle. 196 00:09:31.019 --> 00:09:32.279 It was a spectacle. 197 00:09:32.340 --> 00:09:36.480 And I have to say that shooty just looked absolutely stunning. 198 00:09:36.539 --> 00:09:37.379 Yeah. 199 00:09:37.440 --> 00:09:38.519 Yeah. 200 00:09:38.580 --> 00:09:44.639 Yeah, I think India Obama deserves all of the props because she is 201 00:09:44.639 --> 00:09:50.340 unbelievably horrible as Lady Pemberton or whatever she is, Duchess 202 00:09:50.340 --> 00:09:51.419 Pemberton. 203 00:09:51.480 --> 00:09:55.259 Um, and then when she's taken over by the bird and she suddenly 204 00:09:55.259 --> 00:09:59.039 starts acquiring these sort of birdlike movements, like the way 205 00:09:59.039 --> 00:09:59.879 she moves her head. 206 00:09:59.940 --> 00:10:03.480 She's got an alarmingly long neck as well, which she absolutely 207 00:10:03.480 --> 00:10:05.279 uses to her advantage. 208 00:10:05.340 --> 00:10:06.779 I just think she's fantastic. 209 00:10:06.840 --> 00:10:10.259 And I think it solves the problem in series one of Torture. 210 00:10:10.320 --> 00:10:13.320 They clearly keep killing Susie because she has foul pest. 211 00:10:15.360 --> 00:10:19.559 They do keep killing Susie, not even in Doctor Who. 212 00:10:19.620 --> 00:10:22.740 Like she, she killed so often. 213 00:10:22.799 --> 00:10:24.000 She killed in everything. 214 00:10:24.840 --> 00:10:27.960 Yeah, no, that was that was so much fun. 215 00:10:28.019 --> 00:10:31.320 Um, And I agree with you, Todd. 216 00:10:31.379 --> 00:10:33.059 It, it, it looks luxe. 217 00:10:33.179 --> 00:10:40.320 And beautiful and I think, you know, that sort of majesticness, um 218 00:10:40.320 --> 00:10:46.080 is bec- probably because they they employed again for the 2nd time 219 00:10:46.080 --> 00:10:46.799 this season. 220 00:10:48.240 --> 00:10:50.100 The choreographer from Bridgeton. 221 00:10:50.159 --> 00:10:50.700 Right. 222 00:10:50.759 --> 00:10:51.899 Oh. 223 00:10:51.899 --> 00:10:57.000 Yes, he he choreographed the dancing. 224 00:10:57.000 --> 00:10:59.700 In Devil's Court. 225 00:10:59.759 --> 00:11:00.120 Yeah. 226 00:11:00.179 --> 00:11:01.200 As well. 227 00:11:01.259 --> 00:11:03.720 Yeah, because it's the same director, isn't it? 228 00:11:03.779 --> 00:11:04.799 I did wonder about that actually. 229 00:11:04.860 --> 00:11:06.600 Yeah. interesting. 230 00:11:06.659 --> 00:11:10.139 Can I just say a little slight Bridgerton annoyance that I have? 231 00:11:10.259 --> 00:11:12.720 I mean, I've never I've never watched it, but it is on the list. 232 00:11:12.779 --> 00:11:13.620 We'll get to it eventually. 233 00:11:13.679 --> 00:11:16.139 And I know that it's very much part of the current site, guys. 234 00:11:16.200 --> 00:11:18.539 But I was kind of annoyed that sort of in one line. 235 00:11:18.600 --> 00:11:23.039 We sort of erase 50 or 60 years of quality BBC period drama 236 00:11:23.039 --> 00:11:24.779 because it's all about Bridgerton. 237 00:11:24.840 --> 00:11:26.039 Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. 238 00:11:26.340 --> 00:11:30.059 And the other thing is, I'm very glad that we didn't have a real 239 00:11:30.059 --> 00:11:31.200 historical figure in it. 240 00:11:31.320 --> 00:11:34.620 I was hoping that like Jane Austen wasn't actually going to turn 241 00:11:34.620 --> 00:11:36.840 up because that would have been really tiresome. 242 00:11:36.899 --> 00:11:41.820 You just thought bath, here she is, bath 1813, where she... 243 00:11:41.940 --> 00:11:44.639 I did I did love the... 244 00:11:44.700 --> 00:11:47.700 I mean, I haven't watched Bridgerton, but Jason does. 245 00:11:47.759 --> 00:11:54.360 And so I do catch bits of it in the background and I did love the 246 00:11:54.360 --> 00:11:58.139 uh, the use of, popular music. 247 00:11:58.200 --> 00:11:58.799 Hmm. 248 00:11:58.799 --> 00:12:00.720 Uh, in it. 249 00:12:00.779 --> 00:12:05.940 Like, you know, like, um, The, like, bad guy by Billie Eilish 250 00:12:05.940 --> 00:12:11.220 playing when, when, um, with during the meat cube, or, um, was it 251 00:12:11.220 --> 00:12:11.940 poker face? 252 00:12:11.940 --> 00:12:17.639 Yeah, it was. during the fight scene between Ruby and the blue the 253 00:12:17.639 --> 00:12:18.419 blue dressed bird. 254 00:12:18.480 --> 00:12:19.259 Emily, thank you. 255 00:12:19.379 --> 00:12:21.419 Blue dressed bit. 256 00:12:21.480 --> 00:12:24.360 So yeah, that because that music is being played by notionally 257 00:12:24.360 --> 00:12:27.299 being played by the string quartet in the room, not as incidental 258 00:12:27.299 --> 00:12:27.600 music. 259 00:12:27.659 --> 00:12:29.940 Yeah, it was kind of... 260 00:12:29.940 --> 00:12:31.200 That is a feature of Bridgerton. 261 00:12:31.259 --> 00:12:32.940 Like that is a thing that Bridget does. 262 00:12:33.000 --> 00:12:34.139 So, I see. 263 00:12:34.200 --> 00:12:35.039 Yeah, yeah, yeah. 264 00:12:35.100 --> 00:12:38.100 So, you know, there is there's a sense in which this isn't said in 265 00:12:38.100 --> 00:12:42.720 any kind of actual, you know, 1813 that ever took place. 266 00:12:42.779 --> 00:12:47.340 It is taking place in a Bridgerton version of that, Brendan. 267 00:12:47.399 --> 00:12:51.960 And it gives us a subtle reprise of the, I didn't realise that was 268 00:12:51.960 --> 00:12:55.139 diagetic joke from the devil's chord. 269 00:12:55.200 --> 00:12:56.220 Yeah, yeah. 270 00:12:56.279 --> 00:12:58.379 Just further on the music, though, it is actually interesting 271 00:12:58.379 --> 00:13:03.600 because those anachronistic selections of music are right, only 272 00:13:03.600 --> 00:13:06.419 arrive later because we start with a hide and string quartet in 273 00:13:06.419 --> 00:13:08.220 the in the pre-credit sequence. 274 00:13:08.220 --> 00:13:12.059 And then we have another contemporary work from the Pirul from 275 00:13:12.059 --> 00:13:13.620 1801, 1802, something like that. 276 00:13:13.679 --> 00:13:16.860 When the doctor and Ruby are dancing just straight after the 277 00:13:16.860 --> 00:13:17.340 credits. 278 00:13:17.399 --> 00:13:20.580 So it's kind of like you sort of lulled into it that way. 279 00:13:20.639 --> 00:13:22.500 So that's actually very, very interesting choice. 280 00:13:22.620 --> 00:13:25.259 I do have to, just on the music, if I may, absolutely. 281 00:13:25.320 --> 00:13:27.360 I mean, great to have poker face and all that sort of stuff. 282 00:13:27.419 --> 00:13:30.840 But I think when Rogue and the doctor are dancing. 283 00:13:30.899 --> 00:13:35.340 I think, having Piazola's libertango, which is about from 973, I 284 00:13:35.340 --> 00:13:37.259 think, is a fantastic choice. 285 00:13:37.259 --> 00:13:40.440 And, you know, the music is just perfect for it. 286 00:13:40.500 --> 00:13:43.740 And I don't know whether, I think a lot of the audience would be 287 00:13:43.740 --> 00:13:46.620 probably familiar with the music, like they'll go, oh, that rings 288 00:13:46.620 --> 00:13:48.000 a bell without actually knowing what it is. 289 00:13:48.059 --> 00:13:49.860 And so I think that's just a super super choice. 290 00:13:49.919 --> 00:13:52.980 I thought the musical school was fabulous, isn't it? 291 00:13:52.980 --> 00:13:53.820 It drew me in. 292 00:13:53.879 --> 00:13:55.620 It was just another layer to everything. 293 00:13:55.679 --> 00:13:57.360 That was going on. 294 00:13:57.419 --> 00:14:00.600 It added to the elegance, the overall flavour. 295 00:14:00.659 --> 00:14:00.899 Yeah. 296 00:14:00.960 --> 00:14:04.980 Just do, and just to sort of hark on, hark on about the, the sort 297 00:14:04.980 --> 00:14:07.139 of the majesty of it, for whatever better word. 298 00:14:07.200 --> 00:14:07.740 It's so great. 299 00:14:07.799 --> 00:14:08.820 We are in a large house. 300 00:14:08.879 --> 00:14:09.600 It's not a set. 301 00:14:09.659 --> 00:14:10.679 We've got lots of extras. 302 00:14:10.799 --> 00:14:11.759 It's populated. 303 00:14:11.820 --> 00:14:14.340 There's proper, proper choreographed dance sequences. 304 00:14:14.399 --> 00:14:19.139 The library that's, that, that, that they go to, um, is, is also 305 00:14:19.139 --> 00:14:22.980 large and and, it's wonderful to be dimly lit and and, and 306 00:14:22.980 --> 00:14:24.059 glorious like that. 307 00:14:24.120 --> 00:14:29.159 And yet, the external sequences are also, at no point am I 308 00:14:29.159 --> 00:14:31.799 thinking, oh, this is all just kind of been pasted together from 309 00:14:31.799 --> 00:14:34.620 stuff, or this is a bit of half wall, and we grabbed this from 310 00:14:34.620 --> 00:14:36.179 this other program, even if they did. 311 00:14:36.240 --> 00:14:36.720 I don't know. 312 00:14:36.779 --> 00:14:38.519 Yeah, yeah. 313 00:14:38.580 --> 00:14:42.000 All right, well, let's move on very quickly and talk about Millie 314 00:14:42.000 --> 00:14:44.700 subplot, which is kind of disposable, really. 315 00:14:44.759 --> 00:14:48.659 So it's basically her and Emily and her interactions with the 316 00:14:48.659 --> 00:14:49.139 children. 317 00:14:49.200 --> 00:14:51.720 How do we think Millie was served by this episode? 318 00:14:52.740 --> 00:14:57.000 I liked it because I think that often the Doctor 2 companions do 319 00:14:57.000 --> 00:15:00.299 go into a subplot and and it's good to see that rather than just 320 00:15:00.299 --> 00:15:01.379 being together all the time. 321 00:15:01.440 --> 00:15:05.700 I do think there was a cheat with it because when Emily grabs her 322 00:15:05.700 --> 00:15:09.360 and changes, then we cut to outside and there's a lot of flashing 323 00:15:09.360 --> 00:15:11.879 but then in the flashback, there's very little flashing. 324 00:15:11.940 --> 00:15:15.179 I just felt that was a bit naughty. send us up, send us up the 325 00:15:15.179 --> 00:15:16.139 garden parts. 326 00:15:16.200 --> 00:15:19.679 And then I was a bit confused because Emily and the Lord were then 327 00:15:19.679 --> 00:15:20.639 having their conversation. 328 00:15:21.600 --> 00:15:25.200 And, and were they just play acting that because they knew she was 329 00:15:25.200 --> 00:15:29.460 there or was Emily, was Emily actually Emily at that and then got 330 00:15:29.460 --> 00:15:31.259 like, why go through all of that stuff? 331 00:15:31.320 --> 00:15:33.899 Like, I just, I just kind of, that just stuck. 332 00:15:33.960 --> 00:15:34.799 Is that part of the cosplay? 333 00:15:34.919 --> 00:15:36.240 Yes, that's what I think it is. 334 00:15:36.299 --> 00:15:39.480 I think they're having their great scene together and the fun 335 00:15:39.480 --> 00:15:42.240 thing is that they have an audience, you know, she's there 336 00:15:42.240 --> 00:15:46.019 watching while they do this incredibly important scene from the 337 00:15:46.019 --> 00:15:49.620 romance plot that's being cosplayed in this episode. 338 00:15:49.679 --> 00:15:51.720 So I think it does play with that. 339 00:15:51.779 --> 00:15:55.559 Okay, because I loved her, all her clumsy stuff there. 340 00:15:55.620 --> 00:15:57.779 She might be very much of Joe Grant quite frankly, and I just 341 00:15:57.779 --> 00:15:58.740 thought she did a wonderful job. 342 00:15:58.799 --> 00:16:00.059 Yes, yes. 343 00:16:00.120 --> 00:16:00.779 Good comparison. 344 00:16:00.840 --> 00:16:06.120 I also liked the sort of hiding in plain sight, the solution. 345 00:16:06.179 --> 00:16:09.659 You know, don't set them into battle mode, which is a throwaway 346 00:16:09.659 --> 00:16:11.580 line at the beginning of the episode. 347 00:16:11.639 --> 00:16:15.659 And then it's the way you solve the, oh, how the hell did you get 348 00:16:15.659 --> 00:16:15.960 out of that? 349 00:16:16.019 --> 00:16:19.440 They do a good job there too, of setting up the rules of the 350 00:16:19.440 --> 00:16:21.179 triform in the other plot. 351 00:16:21.240 --> 00:16:25.740 So we get to see that in operation before we get to see it play a 352 00:16:25.740 --> 00:16:27.179 major part in the episode. 353 00:16:27.240 --> 00:16:31.139 And, you know, nothing just sort of comes out of nowhere. 354 00:16:31.200 --> 00:16:33.419 It is all very carefully structured, I think. 355 00:16:33.480 --> 00:16:36.659 Yes, and that that old law of conservation of information. 356 00:16:36.720 --> 00:16:38.940 Yes, the fact that, you know, why do I know how to dance? 357 00:16:39.000 --> 00:16:40.500 Oh, it's because of the earrings, which is actually at the time 358 00:16:40.500 --> 00:16:41.100 when I'm watching that. 359 00:16:41.159 --> 00:16:42.179 I was like, oh, we don't care. 360 00:16:42.240 --> 00:16:43.500 I don't care how she knows I did that. 361 00:16:43.559 --> 00:16:44.460 She just does. 362 00:16:44.519 --> 00:16:47.639 You know, I'm sick of the explanation, but yeah, the payoff is the 363 00:16:47.639 --> 00:16:48.179 earrings. 364 00:16:48.240 --> 00:16:50.039 Although do we really need that anyway? 365 00:16:50.100 --> 00:16:50.399 Whatever. 366 00:16:50.460 --> 00:16:51.179 Yeah. 367 00:16:51.179 --> 00:16:56.879 Something I really loved about Millie this week is she's really 368 00:16:56.879 --> 00:17:01.080 showing her comedy chops because there's several, there's several 369 00:17:01.080 --> 00:17:03.539 times when things are happening around her and she's just kind of 370 00:17:03.539 --> 00:17:08.400 doing sort of pointing and faces like, do I go over, this is so 371 00:17:08.400 --> 00:17:09.359 awkward. 372 00:17:09.420 --> 00:17:11.940 Oh, wait, I'm not watching this as a TV show. 373 00:17:12.000 --> 00:17:12.720 I need to go over there. 374 00:17:12.900 --> 00:17:19.079 And just, there are actors and comedians who have, you know 375 00:17:19.079 --> 00:17:22.680 trained years to do that, and it's so easy to forget that Millie 376 00:17:22.680 --> 00:17:23.160 is 18. 377 00:17:23.339 --> 00:17:24.720 You know? 378 00:17:24.779 --> 00:17:30.599 And yes, she's been acting for years, but just her level of at 379 00:17:30.599 --> 00:17:35.460 times subtlety and at times broadness, she pitches it perfectly. 380 00:17:35.460 --> 00:17:39.299 And I was so impressed and especially like the battle mode scene 381 00:17:39.299 --> 00:17:41.700 where she's surprised by what she's doing. 382 00:17:41.819 --> 00:17:43.319 Yeah, yeah. 383 00:17:43.319 --> 00:17:44.220 Yeah. 384 00:17:44.279 --> 00:17:44.880 All right. 385 00:17:44.940 --> 00:17:46.200 Well, let's talk about the romance. 386 00:17:46.319 --> 00:17:52.319 For me, this is really something where you have one night where 387 00:17:52.319 --> 00:17:55.680 the doctor meets a handsome stranger, they fight monsters 388 00:17:55.680 --> 00:17:56.220 together. 389 00:17:56.279 --> 00:18:00.900 They exchange, you know, they talk to one another about how much 390 00:18:00.900 --> 00:18:05.759 they've lost, and then he disappears from his life forever. 391 00:18:05.819 --> 00:18:10.859 And I thought that that just was a great structure. 392 00:18:10.920 --> 00:18:12.960 And it's something that Doctor Who hasn't done. 393 00:18:13.019 --> 00:18:16.440 I mean, we've had River, we've had Jack, sort of. 394 00:18:16.500 --> 00:18:20.579 But this, I think, is something quite different from that. 395 00:18:21.900 --> 00:18:26.099 How do we feel about Jonathan Groff, Simon? 396 00:18:26.640 --> 00:18:30.900 At the risk of flexing that I just saw him on Broadway in Merrily 397 00:18:30.900 --> 00:18:31.500 we Roll along. 398 00:18:31.559 --> 00:18:32.519 This is what we are. 399 00:18:32.579 --> 00:18:34.920 This is... 400 00:18:34.920 --> 00:18:36.000 You dropped this. 401 00:18:38.279 --> 00:18:41.460 The performance was actually remarkably similar to the one I just 402 00:18:41.460 --> 00:18:44.160 saw on stake in that he was very, you just know, and just in terms 403 00:18:44.160 --> 00:18:46.500 of the fact that he was very still, and also he was very 404 00:18:46.500 --> 00:18:49.740 underplayed compared with everything else going on around him. 405 00:18:49.799 --> 00:18:53.519 And I really like him as an actor. 406 00:18:53.579 --> 00:18:55.559 I think he's great. 407 00:18:55.619 --> 00:19:00.779 I am questioning whether there is a fine line between being 408 00:19:00.779 --> 00:19:06.480 understated and being flat and I'm not 100% sure that he's not 409 00:19:06.480 --> 00:19:08.880 just sometimes flat because he's trying to be still, he's trying 410 00:19:08.880 --> 00:19:12.059 to be obviously suave and cool and everything, but not in an 411 00:19:12.059 --> 00:19:12.539 annoying way. 412 00:19:12.660 --> 00:19:16.920 And I think contrasted with shooting and contrasted with all the 413 00:19:16.920 --> 00:19:19.079 other heightened performances which are going on around him. 414 00:19:19.140 --> 00:19:21.240 It is a little bit out of place. 415 00:19:21.299 --> 00:19:24.240 Having said that, you know, he's great and he certainly does know 416 00:19:24.240 --> 00:19:24.779 what he's doing. 417 00:19:24.839 --> 00:19:27.420 I wouldn't dare to question the choices. 418 00:19:27.480 --> 00:19:30.539 See, I think he's a shy nerd. 419 00:19:30.599 --> 00:19:35.099 You know, who secretly loves Kylie and plays Dungeons and Dragons 420 00:19:35.099 --> 00:19:37.740 and named himself after the rogue class. 421 00:19:37.799 --> 00:19:43.680 And so we expected him to be Jack and we're kind of fooled into 422 00:19:43.680 --> 00:19:47.579 that because we get the scene from the empty child only instead of 423 00:19:47.579 --> 00:19:51.839 someone taking the companion to their spaceship. 424 00:19:51.900 --> 00:19:54.000 He takes the doctor to the spaceship. 425 00:19:54.059 --> 00:19:56.039 And it is exactly that scene, isn't it? 426 00:19:56.700 --> 00:20:04.500 But he's lonely and he's on his own and he's he's charmed by the 427 00:20:04.500 --> 00:20:08.579 doctor, but he's also very quiet and nerdy. 428 00:20:08.640 --> 00:20:13.500 He's not the loud suave guy that Jack is at all. 429 00:20:13.980 --> 00:20:16.680 So he's Henry Cavell is what you're saying. 430 00:20:16.980 --> 00:20:18.599 He wishes. 431 00:20:18.660 --> 00:20:19.859 No, he can act. 432 00:20:19.920 --> 00:20:20.640 Sorry, Brendan. 433 00:20:20.700 --> 00:20:22.079 Yeah, I was going to say it's bad. 434 00:20:22.140 --> 00:20:24.359 Don't be rude to Jonathan Groff. 435 00:20:27.599 --> 00:20:34.920 Yeah, I found, I found their chemistry rather wonderful and um 436 00:20:34.920 --> 00:20:39.119 something I said to um, uh, friend of the podcast this week and it 437 00:20:39.119 --> 00:20:44.339 was either Bob or Alex, so if you're listening, Lads High, um, was 438 00:20:44.339 --> 00:20:51.960 I think the doctor sees his pain, his past pain in rogue. 439 00:20:52.019 --> 00:20:56.220 And in the doctor, Rogue sees someone he'd like to be more like 440 00:20:56.220 --> 00:20:57.839 because he's a bounty hunter. 441 00:20:57.900 --> 00:21:02.099 But It's not like a blood sport. 442 00:21:02.160 --> 00:21:06.000 And you know, I think this interpretation of the word bounty 443 00:21:06.000 --> 00:21:09.720 hunter is very informed by the Mandalorian, another Disney Plus 444 00:21:09.720 --> 00:21:14.039 property. in that this is an honourable figure who is interested 445 00:21:14.039 --> 00:21:16.920 in protecting the lives of innocence, and that's why he does what 446 00:21:16.920 --> 00:21:19.140 he does, but is also deeply lonely. 447 00:21:19.380 --> 00:21:22.380 And I think the doctor recognises that. 448 00:21:22.799 --> 00:21:25.619 I agree with you, Brendan, on this. 449 00:21:25.680 --> 00:21:30.420 I kind of think there is this connection between them which slowly 450 00:21:30.420 --> 00:21:33.059 builds because the doctor sees certain things in rogue and then 451 00:21:33.059 --> 00:21:34.680 rogue sees certain things in the doctor. 452 00:21:34.740 --> 00:21:38.220 So as it goes along through all that Kylie stuff, that's slowly 453 00:21:38.220 --> 00:21:38.640 building. 454 00:21:38.700 --> 00:21:42.299 And I actually think it goes at a pretty, well, I think it goes at 455 00:21:42.299 --> 00:21:45.240 a good pace, you know, and I actually see, you know, all the stuff 456 00:21:45.240 --> 00:21:48.240 in the TARDIS and the little flirting there and the almost kissing 457 00:21:48.240 --> 00:21:48.839 and all that. 458 00:21:48.900 --> 00:21:51.779 I just, I just love the way in which you'd sort of built and I 459 00:21:51.779 --> 00:21:53.339 actually thought they had a good chemistry. 460 00:21:53.400 --> 00:21:56.099 And I think, um, Simon Wright, you're right. 461 00:21:56.160 --> 00:21:58.740 Like he certainly underplayed it more, but there were certain 462 00:21:58.740 --> 00:22:00.180 times where you could see he wanted to. 463 00:22:01.079 --> 00:22:04.019 You know, he wanted to give more, you know, and he's obviously 464 00:22:04.019 --> 00:22:07.019 gone through a lot of pain and and I just bought, you know, when 465 00:22:07.019 --> 00:22:08.940 he went down on his knee with the ring in that scene. 466 00:22:09.000 --> 00:22:12.960 I almost lost it, like, you know, and then, and then at the end 467 00:22:12.960 --> 00:22:15.480 you know, with the kiss and his sacrifice. 468 00:22:15.539 --> 00:22:17.220 I mean, I bought the whole thing. 469 00:22:17.279 --> 00:22:19.799 I was just swept away in the romance of it all. 470 00:22:19.859 --> 00:22:22.200 I mean, I don't want to... 471 00:22:22.200 --> 00:22:25.259 This is Dizzy's performance because I think he's very good. 472 00:22:25.319 --> 00:22:28.380 It's just that I couldn't help thinking, as you're saying, Nathan 473 00:22:28.380 --> 00:22:29.880 the kind of the shy nerd. 474 00:22:29.940 --> 00:22:32.640 I kind of, I just wanted to see that that being a little bit more 475 00:22:32.640 --> 00:22:34.140 visible in his performance than it was. 476 00:22:34.200 --> 00:22:34.619 That's all. 477 00:22:34.740 --> 00:22:38.039 I just, and it's just partly because of the, the, the kind of 478 00:22:38.039 --> 00:22:41.400 level of performance of everything else around him. need to be the 479 00:22:41.400 --> 00:22:43.319 population. more, don't you, in Doctor Who? 480 00:22:43.380 --> 00:22:43.619 Exactly. 481 00:22:43.680 --> 00:22:44.279 Yeah, yeah, yeah. 482 00:22:44.339 --> 00:22:44.819 Yeah, yeah, yeah. 483 00:22:44.880 --> 00:22:46.440 But, I mean, he's so charming. 484 00:22:46.500 --> 00:22:47.819 The 2 of them are so attractive. 485 00:22:47.880 --> 00:22:52.680 And, you know, like instantly even up on the balcony, they're kind 486 00:22:52.680 --> 00:22:55.559 of flirting and having fun with one another. 487 00:22:55.559 --> 00:23:01.200 And the doctor like dancing and like lip syncing to Kylie in the 488 00:23:01.200 --> 00:23:04.859 sort of incredibly kind of sexy way. 489 00:23:04.859 --> 00:23:07.200 And, you know, I don't know. 490 00:23:08.519 --> 00:23:12.720 We've had the doctor fall in love with someone in an episode 491 00:23:12.720 --> 00:23:17.039 before, we mentioned girl in the fireplace, and maybe this is 492 00:23:17.039 --> 00:23:20.700 something for flights through entirety, but I remember that Paul 493 00:23:20.700 --> 00:23:25.500 Cornell when he made John Smith fall in love with Joan Redford, one 494 00:23:25.500 --> 00:23:30.240 of the things that he said to us in the book was that, he made the 495 00:23:30.240 --> 00:23:35.579 doctor straight and that was a thing that meant that something had 496 00:23:35.579 --> 00:23:39.480 been lost because Doctor Who had a gay fandom and one of the 497 00:23:39.480 --> 00:23:42.660 reasons it had a gay fandom was that the doctor travelled with 498 00:23:42.660 --> 00:23:45.420 these beautiful women but wasn't really particularly interested in 499 00:23:45.420 --> 00:23:45.660 them. 500 00:23:45.720 --> 00:23:50.460 He wasn't a normal romantic hero and we could kind of insert 501 00:23:50.460 --> 00:23:52.559 ourselves in there. 502 00:23:52.619 --> 00:23:53.579 Do you know what I mean? 503 00:23:53.640 --> 00:23:55.559 We could identify with that in some way. 504 00:23:55.619 --> 00:23:59.640 And by making him heterosexual, I think we do open the character 505 00:23:59.640 --> 00:24:03.000 up, make him more interesting, give him the chance to be involved 506 00:24:03.000 --> 00:24:04.619 in romance and things. 507 00:24:04.740 --> 00:24:09.900 And so now this is us being represented as well in the character 508 00:24:09.900 --> 00:24:10.799 of the doctor. 509 00:24:10.859 --> 00:24:15.000 And I thought it was pretty, it was pretty amazing actually. 510 00:24:15.059 --> 00:24:19.380 And the fake, the faint with that, they're gonna kiss, but they 511 00:24:19.380 --> 00:24:21.779 don't, because the thing dings, and you sort of think, oh, well 512 00:24:21.779 --> 00:24:22.680 they're not gonna kiss then. 513 00:24:22.740 --> 00:24:24.059 That's done. 514 00:24:24.059 --> 00:24:25.799 And of course, the highlight. 515 00:24:25.859 --> 00:24:29.339 Um, you know, that the big kiss at the end, which is so 516 00:24:29.339 --> 00:24:29.819 wonderful. 517 00:24:29.880 --> 00:24:32.400 Uh, you know, I just... 518 00:24:32.400 --> 00:24:33.180 Ruby's reaction. 519 00:24:33.240 --> 00:24:34.740 Yeah, yeah. 520 00:24:34.799 --> 00:24:39.059 Even though she's about to be sent to a barren dimension 521 00:24:39.059 --> 00:24:39.420 somewhere. 522 00:24:40.500 --> 00:24:44.759 The warmth and generosity there at the end, like in that moment 523 00:24:44.759 --> 00:24:46.980 and then making the doctor hug it out. 524 00:24:47.039 --> 00:24:47.819 Yeah. 525 00:24:47.880 --> 00:24:52.920 You know, it's her performance as that character, I really, really 526 00:24:52.920 --> 00:24:53.940 love those aspects. 527 00:24:54.480 --> 00:24:58.440 I think, though, there's a difference between the way this is done 528 00:24:58.440 --> 00:25:01.980 and the way say girl in the fireplace is done or any of the other 529 00:25:01.980 --> 00:25:03.480 like the river and so on. 530 00:25:03.539 --> 00:25:08.160 The, the, the, the kind of the, the falling in love aspects. 531 00:25:08.220 --> 00:25:13.200 He really falls into an emotional love with Madame de Pompadour in 532 00:25:13.200 --> 00:25:13.859 that. 533 00:25:14.160 --> 00:25:18.839 This, I think, is different because it is, and certainly with 534 00:25:18.839 --> 00:25:19.380 River as well. 535 00:25:19.440 --> 00:25:22.559 It's an intellectual and emotional attachment and love. 536 00:25:23.400 --> 00:25:27.839 With this, I think this is the 1st time you get the concept of the 537 00:25:27.839 --> 00:25:31.500 doctor being a sexual being because there is a bit more of an 538 00:25:31.500 --> 00:25:36.180 animalistic desire that I think we're seeing there, in the passion 539 00:25:36.180 --> 00:25:41.279 of the kiss and and also the way the doctor is flirting with rogue 540 00:25:41.279 --> 00:25:45.059 very, very actively, like, whereas with River and Madame de 541 00:25:45.059 --> 00:25:49.019 Pompadour, he's being, doctors being courted by them, really. 542 00:25:49.079 --> 00:25:53.220 Whereas in this case, the doctor is at least an equal partner, if 543 00:25:53.220 --> 00:25:57.299 not, he's the one almost making the moves on rogue. 544 00:25:57.299 --> 00:26:00.660 And I think that is a different way of doing it. 545 00:26:00.720 --> 00:26:04.019 Now, I do subscribe to that kind of whilst I love girl in the 546 00:26:04.019 --> 00:26:04.380 fireplace. 547 00:26:04.440 --> 00:26:05.819 I love human nature, et cetera, et cetera. 548 00:26:05.940 --> 00:26:07.259 And I love the relationship with the river. 549 00:26:07.319 --> 00:26:10.019 I still always default to the fact that, you know, I still like 550 00:26:10.019 --> 00:26:10.859 that doctor. 551 00:26:10.920 --> 00:26:12.960 Not so much being an asexual being, but it's just something that 552 00:26:12.960 --> 00:26:13.799 we just don't really deal with. 553 00:26:13.859 --> 00:26:18.599 And I think it's okay for it to be done like very sparingly, and I 554 00:26:18.599 --> 00:26:21.299 get that it's part of what you need to do in the modern era, but I 555 00:26:21.299 --> 00:26:23.940 query where there's some of the discomfort that some people have 556 00:26:23.940 --> 00:26:27.119 had with that has not been around that I've read online, has not 557 00:26:27.119 --> 00:26:30.900 been around the gayness of it per se, but about the doctor being a 558 00:26:30.900 --> 00:26:31.920 more sexual being. 559 00:26:31.980 --> 00:26:36.180 And I don't think the doctor's necessarily straight for human 560 00:26:36.180 --> 00:26:36.599 nature. 561 00:26:36.660 --> 00:26:39.119 He's neither straight nor gain nor b nor anything. 562 00:26:39.180 --> 00:26:44.279 He's kind of, because he's an alien, it's, it's, it, it may be 563 00:26:44.279 --> 00:26:46.680 maybe he has different sexualities depending on the regeneration 564 00:26:46.680 --> 00:26:49.140 or maybe he's always got all sexualities. 565 00:26:49.200 --> 00:26:49.619 Who knows? 566 00:26:49.680 --> 00:26:53.160 It's just that ability to be able to read your own, your own 567 00:26:53.160 --> 00:26:57.480 vision, your own interpretation into different aspects of the 568 00:26:57.480 --> 00:26:57.900 program. 569 00:26:57.960 --> 00:27:00.900 And I think we should always, the program should always aspire to 570 00:27:00.900 --> 00:27:03.539 be able to be open to all those interpretations simultaneously. 571 00:27:03.660 --> 00:27:09.779 I think, though, that the, while they are both sexy men and while 572 00:27:09.779 --> 00:27:15.480 they are flirting with one another, it's, um, the kneeling down 573 00:27:15.480 --> 00:27:18.359 which is so romantic, where he kneels and gives him like that, it's 574 00:27:18.359 --> 00:27:23.339 incredibly romantic, the moment where they open up and they see 575 00:27:23.339 --> 00:27:27.660 the loss that each of them is experienced, you know, like there is 576 00:27:27.660 --> 00:27:28.740 an emotional level. 577 00:27:28.799 --> 00:27:30.299 It isn't just about sex. 578 00:27:30.359 --> 00:27:34.680 And I do think, yeah, I think that, you know, there's a reason, you 579 00:27:34.680 --> 00:27:38.279 know, certainly there are people who prefer the show where the 580 00:27:38.279 --> 00:27:42.779 doctor isn't, um, uh, you know, isn't involved in romances. 581 00:27:42.839 --> 00:27:44.700 The doctor doesn't dance. 582 00:27:44.759 --> 00:27:48.900 Yeah, my feeling, though, is that there are people leaping online 583 00:27:48.900 --> 00:27:54.059 to complain about girl in the fireplace. and I think that their 584 00:27:54.059 --> 00:27:58.559 complaints are fairly, clearly motivated for one thing. 585 00:27:58.619 --> 00:27:59.819 Yeah. 586 00:27:59.819 --> 00:28:00.000 Yeah. 587 00:28:00.059 --> 00:28:03.960 Because I do think, like, I do think this is adorably romantic. 588 00:28:03.960 --> 00:28:07.980 And I think you're right, Simon. he's never said to be straight 589 00:28:07.980 --> 00:28:13.680 we've never had him, you know, given a label and even now we 590 00:28:13.680 --> 00:28:17.519 haven't, you know, but we did see him in a lot of mixed sex 591 00:28:17.519 --> 00:28:18.240 relationships. 592 00:28:18.299 --> 00:28:20.940 We've seen him in lots of heterosexual relationships and I think 593 00:28:20.940 --> 00:28:24.480 Moffatt constructs him as a straight man because Moffatt has 594 00:28:24.480 --> 00:28:28.559 things to say about, um, about men and women and the relationships 595 00:28:28.559 --> 00:28:29.160 between them. 596 00:28:29.160 --> 00:28:31.799 And all of that is really good and I enjoyed all of that stuff at 597 00:28:31.799 --> 00:28:32.519 the time. 598 00:28:32.759 --> 00:28:37.200 But actually seeing him kiss a man in a way that we haven't seen 599 00:28:37.200 --> 00:28:37.619 before. 600 00:28:37.619 --> 00:28:41.339 And, you know, he doesn't kiss Jack, Jack kisses him. 601 00:28:41.400 --> 00:28:43.440 I think it's it matters. 602 00:28:43.559 --> 00:28:46.140 And it's not a it's not a romantic kiss with Jack. 603 00:28:46.200 --> 00:28:47.400 No. 604 00:28:47.460 --> 00:28:52.980 Also, the idea of doing a queer romance came from the writers, not 605 00:28:52.980 --> 00:28:53.519 from Russell. 606 00:28:53.579 --> 00:28:54.180 Yeah. 607 00:28:54.240 --> 00:28:55.980 They actually suggested it to him. 608 00:28:56.039 --> 00:29:00.000 The funny thing is that Kate Heron directed an executive produced 609 00:29:00.000 --> 00:29:05.339 the 1st season of Loki, and Russell said that saying that Loki was 610 00:29:05.339 --> 00:29:10.200 bisexual was just absolute cheap representation because they never 611 00:29:10.200 --> 00:29:11.279 showed anything. 612 00:29:11.339 --> 00:29:14.099 You can put the word bisexual, you can type it into your script 613 00:29:14.099 --> 00:29:16.559 and it costs you absolutely nothing at all. 614 00:29:16.619 --> 00:29:21.299 And so when he hires her, she says, all right, you know, I'm doing 615 00:29:21.299 --> 00:29:22.740 it and he's going to be kissing a man. 616 00:29:22.799 --> 00:29:23.880 I think that's pretty great. 617 00:29:24.660 --> 00:29:28.920 I also think, like, you know, with the bi-regeneration thing, is 618 00:29:28.920 --> 00:29:31.980 that a lot of the baggage of the doctor has gone, and we've seen 619 00:29:31.980 --> 00:29:34.500 him in shooting that is much more emotional. 620 00:29:34.559 --> 00:29:35.819 Like he's crying so much. 621 00:29:35.880 --> 00:29:38.759 Like again, at the end of the episode, there are tears, and I 622 00:29:38.759 --> 00:29:42.660 think that allows him to be more open to actually take the lead in 623 00:29:42.660 --> 00:29:45.420 being the romantic lead. 624 00:29:45.539 --> 00:29:48.960 And I mean, if you look at the, and going back to what Simon's 625 00:29:48.960 --> 00:29:51.240 saying, like, you know, in the original series run, the doctor was 626 00:29:51.240 --> 00:29:52.019 very asexual. 627 00:29:52.079 --> 00:29:56.460 In the next generation from 2004 to 2022, a lot of people 628 00:29:56.460 --> 00:29:58.019 instigated the romance on him. 629 00:29:58.079 --> 00:30:02.880 Here, he is, this is now a different series, series, season one or 630 00:30:02.880 --> 00:30:03.660 series one again. 631 00:30:03.720 --> 00:30:08.460 So it's it is a new way of interpreting the doctor and I'm all for 632 00:30:08.460 --> 00:30:09.359 it, you know? 633 00:30:09.420 --> 00:30:11.700 I'm all forward. all for it as a one-off, certainly. 634 00:30:11.759 --> 00:30:13.920 But, you know, are you going to do it every week? 635 00:30:13.980 --> 00:30:14.519 No, you're not. 636 00:30:14.579 --> 00:30:18.299 But it's nice to see a difference from what has happened before 637 00:30:18.299 --> 00:30:19.200 you know? 638 00:30:19.259 --> 00:30:22.440 And representation certainly in the way it's been done. 639 00:30:22.500 --> 00:30:24.240 You better find him though. 640 00:30:24.299 --> 00:30:25.380 Yeah, absolutely. 641 00:30:25.440 --> 00:30:26.640 All right. 642 00:30:26.700 --> 00:30:28.619 I think we're going to wind it up there. 643 00:30:28.680 --> 00:30:33.299 We've got some things to plug, untitled Star Trek Project is on 644 00:30:33.299 --> 00:30:37.799 obviously, every Friday, and I can't even remember what our next 645 00:30:37.799 --> 00:30:39.660 episode is, but I'm sure it's lovely. 646 00:30:39.720 --> 00:30:41.400 We're a few weeks ahead. 647 00:30:41.579 --> 00:30:45.660 Startling Barbara Bain, I think, is probably recording next week. 648 00:30:45.779 --> 00:30:49.619 If you don't know about it, it's our Space 1999 commentary podcast 649 00:30:49.619 --> 00:30:55.680 which is pretty fun and is about to drop its 6th episode. 650 00:30:55.740 --> 00:30:57.839 Brendan, what do you want to plug? 651 00:30:58.019 --> 00:31:03.420 Before I plug, I just want to say, um, if you enjoyed uh, the 652 00:31:03.420 --> 00:31:07.200 doctor inadvertently getting a marriage proposal and a companion 653 00:31:07.200 --> 00:31:10.859 almost being married off against their will, not to mention the 654 00:31:10.859 --> 00:31:13.980 doctor's actions inadvertently almost leading to the death of a 655 00:31:13.980 --> 00:31:17.039 companion, you might enjoy Doctor Who, the Aztecs. 656 00:31:17.279 --> 00:31:21.059 Oh, this is your link to this is my link. 657 00:31:21.119 --> 00:31:22.440 This is my link. 658 00:31:22.500 --> 00:31:27.660 And as I as I wasn't on last week, I can say last week's link to 659 00:31:27.660 --> 00:31:31.140 the keys of Baroness is that we have a global computer controlling 660 00:31:31.140 --> 00:31:33.180 how people think and feel. 661 00:31:33.240 --> 00:31:36.779 And a set of monsters where you're like, maybe they've got a 662 00:31:36.779 --> 00:31:37.200 point. 663 00:31:37.920 --> 00:31:43.200 And at the end, our sort of vapid blonde hero goes up and says 664 00:31:43.200 --> 00:31:45.779 yeah, I'll be fine as she walks towards an acid C. 665 00:31:45.839 --> 00:31:47.339 Brilliant. 666 00:31:47.400 --> 00:31:48.900 What's up to the Aztecs? 667 00:31:48.960 --> 00:31:50.759 The sensor rights. 668 00:31:50.819 --> 00:31:52.680 So I'll be interested to see how it helps. 669 00:31:53.339 --> 00:31:57.480 A legend of Ruby Sunday. measures up to the sensorize. 670 00:31:57.539 --> 00:32:01.140 But yes, in terms of what I have to plug, the BJBJ game show will 671 00:32:01.140 --> 00:32:05.759 be back next week with the tourist, and after that, we are playing 672 00:32:05.759 --> 00:32:13.440 the Talos principal, and also back next week is the three-handed 673 00:32:13.440 --> 00:32:18.059 game where we are going into the new Avengers to start off the 674 00:32:18.059 --> 00:32:20.220 cool war with to catch a rat. 675 00:32:20.339 --> 00:32:21.480 Brilliant. 676 00:32:21.839 --> 00:32:26.220 All right, in that case, until next time, I've been boarding up 677 00:32:26.220 --> 00:32:29.759 all the doors and windows here, so Susan Twist can't get in, so 678 00:32:29.759 --> 00:32:31.980 that might be something you might want to consider. 679 00:32:32.039 --> 00:32:34.799 Thank you very much for listening and good night. 680 00:32:34.859 --> 00:32:35.940 Good night. 681 00:32:36.059 --> 00:32:37.019 Ta-ta. 682 00:32:37.140 --> 00:32:37.980 Bye-bye. 683 00:32:38.039 --> 00:32:39.180 See you soon.