WEBVTT NOTE This transcript was created on 2026-06-07 at 11:58:56 1 00:00:00.000 --> 00:00:09.720 Hello, dear listener, and welcome back to the 2nd great and bountiful Human Empire, the only dogs who flash cast in possession of a good fortune, which must be in want of a bird. 2 00:00:09.900 --> 00:00:11.880 I'm Nathan. 3 00:00:11.939 --> 00:00:13.080 I'm Brendan. 4 00:00:13.140 --> 00:00:14.400 I'm James. 5 00:00:14.460 --> 00:00:15.660 I'm Simon. 6 00:00:15.720 --> 00:00:17.039 And I'm Todd. 7 00:00:17.100 --> 00:00:29.160 So, uh, we're here today to discuss season one episode probably six, uh, depending on whether you're Disney or the BBC. 8 00:00:29.219 --> 00:00:42.299 It is Rogue, written by Kate Heron and Bryney Redmond, and directed by Ben Chessel, who we saw earlier this season doing the devil's chord. 9 00:00:42.359 --> 00:00:47.700 I want to start with just a quick sort of round of general impressions. 10 00:00:47.759 --> 00:00:53.579 This might be a good place for your mark out of 10 or your feelings about the episode generally. 11 00:00:53.579 --> 00:00:56.100 I think I have to start with Todd after saying that. 12 00:00:56.460 --> 00:01:09.299 I have to say, any episode that surprises me with Kylie in such a delightful way is going to get lots of plus points and I enjoyed the whole thing thoroughly, at least an 8 out of 10 for me. 13 00:01:09.359 --> 00:01:10.260 Brilliant. 14 00:01:10.319 --> 00:01:11.519 What about you, Brendan? 15 00:01:12.060 --> 00:01:13.980 I'm with Todd. 16 00:01:14.040 --> 00:01:14.939 It's an 8 out of 10. 17 00:01:15.239 --> 00:01:26.040 The only place it loses points is I felt it repeated some ideas from Captain Jack and River, but not enough for it to sort of bore me or me to go, oh, we've seen this before. 18 00:01:26.099 --> 00:01:26.760 I get it. 19 00:01:26.819 --> 00:01:30.299 It's kind of a shorthand, but yeah, it's a solid 8 out of 10 from me. 20 00:01:30.480 --> 00:01:32.640 What about you, Simon? 21 00:01:33.060 --> 00:01:34.920 Well, goodness me. 22 00:01:34.980 --> 00:01:36.780 I might even say 8.5 out of 10. 23 00:01:36.959 --> 00:01:39.599 I think there is there is there is gas. 24 00:01:39.659 --> 00:01:49.680 There is much to love about this episode, including, and particularly the way it's made, you know, the structure of it with that wonderful cold open, it just drags you in. 25 00:01:49.739 --> 00:01:51.420 It's just fantastic. 26 00:01:51.480 --> 00:01:56.219 The costuming, it's so great that we have a doctor who enjoys dressing up when he goes into the past. 27 00:01:56.340 --> 00:01:59.099 There is much to like about it. 28 00:01:59.159 --> 00:02:06.900 It's not perfect, and we'll come to those little niggling annoyances later, but no, I was engaged throughout the entire thing and charmed. 29 00:02:06.959 --> 00:02:08.460 And James. 30 00:02:08.580 --> 00:02:13.080 Oh, look, I think this is my favourite episode of the season so far. 31 00:02:13.139 --> 00:02:20.699 Um, and that's not to say, structurally, it's the best or the, I, it's just so much fun. 32 00:02:20.759 --> 00:02:23.639 I think fun is what sums it up for me. 33 00:02:23.699 --> 00:02:27.840 I was just smiling with glee the entire episode. 34 00:02:27.900 --> 00:02:32.819 Even, even the, the, sort of, more serious bits. 35 00:02:32.879 --> 00:02:34.319 I was like, 0 my god, they're going there. 36 00:02:34.379 --> 00:02:38.639 Or just like, yeah, oh, fantastic, fantastic. really enjoyed it. 37 00:02:38.699 --> 00:02:40.259 Nathan, what about you? 38 00:02:40.979 --> 00:02:44.460 Well, I actually really, really enjoyed it as well. 39 00:02:44.460 --> 00:02:48.479 And I find I found myself falling for all of the episodes intrigues as well. 40 00:02:48.539 --> 00:02:49.500 I'm kind of going, what? 41 00:02:49.620 --> 00:02:51.060 So, no, Ruby's not dead. 42 00:02:51.120 --> 00:02:51.840 Is Ruby dead? 43 00:02:51.900 --> 00:02:53.639 Are we getting another face, the raven moment? 44 00:02:53.699 --> 00:02:54.360 What's happening here? 45 00:02:54.419 --> 00:02:56.099 And all of that sort of stuff? 46 00:02:56.159 --> 00:02:59.099 Like, I just completely fell for it in every way. 47 00:02:59.159 --> 00:03:01.979 And I love romance. 48 00:03:02.099 --> 00:03:10.860 We'll talk about that a little bit later because I think it's super central, but it's a genre that I really enjoy and obviously it works in this sort of historical setting. 49 00:03:10.919 --> 00:03:24.360 And the other thing that I thought was really great was just the artificiality of it, that we have people fighting, like our monsters want to have the best guest role in the show, and that's kind of what they're fighting over. 50 00:03:24.419 --> 00:03:29.699 And the whole thing is designed to create a TV show for our amusement. 51 00:03:29.759 --> 00:03:31.500 It's the thing that the children do. 52 00:03:31.560 --> 00:03:35.099 So I thought it was really fun and funny and clever. 53 00:03:35.159 --> 00:03:37.740 And I thought the romance landed just spectacularly. 54 00:03:37.860 --> 00:03:40.259 Let's talk about Bridgerton. 55 00:03:40.319 --> 00:03:42.599 Has anyone here watched Bridgerton? 56 00:03:42.659 --> 00:03:43.860 Yes. 57 00:03:43.860 --> 00:03:44.460 I confess. 58 00:03:45.060 --> 00:03:46.919 Because I confess I've never actually watched it. 59 00:03:46.979 --> 00:03:47.759 Yeah, not me. 60 00:03:47.819 --> 00:03:52.800 That being said, the current, the current season's trailers have me very intrigued. 61 00:03:52.860 --> 00:04:04.979 So it's just possible despite what she says that Ruby doesn't watch Bridgerton, otherwise she would have recognised Jocelyn from Space Babies. as Queen Charlotte from Regent. 62 00:04:06.840 --> 00:04:27.240 Um, But I have watched Bridgerton and Bridgerton is very much about that, you know, one of the things, one of the things that we said last week, I think, was that we were doing the race thing in episode 5 in space and that it meant we would be unlikely to do it in the Bridgerton episode. 63 00:04:27.300 --> 00:04:31.259 And one of the things that Bridgerton is famous for is, of course, the colourblind casting. 64 00:04:31.319 --> 00:04:35.519 And so we do kind of just do that. 65 00:04:35.579 --> 00:04:44.639 We don't go for a 2nd episode in a row with an all white guest cast and we just let that happen and do other things. 66 00:04:44.699 --> 00:04:47.160 And in fact, it's much more about queerness. 67 00:04:47.220 --> 00:04:49.740 I think that it is about race. 68 00:04:49.800 --> 00:05:11.459 Um, so I think all of that stuff, you know, I've got a lot to say when it comes time to talk about this on flight through entirety, um, because just of the artificiality of the past and the way that it really leans into that and has the characters willingly participating, in creating a dramatic artificial setting, which I think is really fun. 69 00:05:12.240 --> 00:05:15.120 How did we feel about the Chuldor? 70 00:05:15.420 --> 00:05:22.800 Uh, I think they've very effectively realised with the exception of the blue one, which was really distracting me. 71 00:05:22.860 --> 00:05:23.939 No, the blue one. 72 00:05:24.000 --> 00:05:33.420 There was something about it, which made it look like velvet, like that blue head was... was just terribly off-putting for me. 73 00:05:33.480 --> 00:05:37.740 But no, I really liked the idea of them. 74 00:05:37.800 --> 00:05:49.560 Yeah, just wanting to have fun, almost like the eternals, like they're just kind of, um, um, passing the time by by taking over other people's bodies and okay, that person gets killed, but um, they don't really care. 75 00:05:49.620 --> 00:05:57.660 I don't think it was necessary that suddenly everything was heightened towards the end when what they were going to destroy the effectively destroy the entire world. 76 00:05:57.720 --> 00:05:58.500 Yeah. 77 00:05:58.500 --> 00:06:00.060 By the time they finished. 78 00:06:00.120 --> 00:06:10.019 I actually thought that was, not just unnecessary, but I think that actually detracted from the kind of the, what I wanted them to be, which was kind of just much more carefree. 79 00:06:10.500 --> 00:06:13.620 I mean they were going to have fun doing it, weren't they? 80 00:06:13.680 --> 00:06:18.720 They were going to sort of start wars with Portugal and stuff. for fun and maybe be the king. 81 00:06:18.779 --> 00:06:29.459 I think the stakes needed to be high so that Ruby sacrificing herself worked or the doctor refusing to, you know, had to refute, had to stop them, you know. 82 00:06:29.519 --> 00:06:36.000 Yeah, I don't know because that's I think, I mean, the most obvious comparison for me is girl in the fireplace. this episode. 83 00:06:36.060 --> 00:06:44.220 And I think one of the reasons, one of the many reasons I absolutely love that episode is because there isn't actually anything at stake apart from the life of one woman. 84 00:06:44.279 --> 00:06:54.120 And I think if they'd have kept it to that, I think if Ruby had been wanting to sacrifice itself because of the doctor, so the doctor and Rogue can do their thing. 85 00:06:54.180 --> 00:07:03.240 I think that would have been a much more nicer thing rather than because, you know, we're going to go to war with Portugal or the whole world's going to be consumed by this, you know, it's kind of like, yeah, yeah, I just don't care about that. 86 00:07:03.300 --> 00:07:04.800 Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. 87 00:07:04.860 --> 00:07:05.220 Yeah. 88 00:07:05.279 --> 00:07:06.720 What do you think, Brendan? 89 00:07:06.779 --> 00:07:18.060 Yeah, I'm I'm a little I'm a little bit with Simon on this one. you know, I loved I love the design and I think, um, children of 1990 Zelda games and James is going to know what I'm talking about. 90 00:07:18.120 --> 00:07:20.519 We have an aversion to owls who talk too much. 91 00:07:23.160 --> 00:07:34.800 But, uh, I think, I think for me, is it's a bit like in Ghostlight, where Josiah is suddenly, and I'm going to kill Queen Victoria. 92 00:07:34.800 --> 00:07:38.160 Yeah, you don't care. 93 00:07:38.220 --> 00:07:41.579 It's like we're escalating the stakes. 94 00:07:41.639 --> 00:07:41.939 Why? 95 00:07:42.000 --> 00:07:42.480 Shut up. 96 00:07:42.540 --> 00:07:43.019 That's why. 97 00:07:43.500 --> 00:07:46.439 You know, I'm swept along with it. 98 00:07:46.500 --> 00:07:48.240 It doesn't affect my enjoyment. 99 00:07:48.300 --> 00:07:54.540 But yeah, it also, it almost would have been nice if their whole thing was just, no, we're just going to go around and kill people at garden parties. 100 00:07:54.959 --> 00:07:59.100 And maybe maybe, yeah, and maybe you can get rogue going. 101 00:07:59.160 --> 00:08:01.139 Actually, France have got a similar idea right now. 102 00:08:01.199 --> 00:08:02.100 I'm just saying. 103 00:08:03.480 --> 00:08:05.519 Tips the wrong country. 104 00:08:05.759 --> 00:08:08.040 What do you think, Todd? 105 00:08:08.100 --> 00:08:10.139 As a Bridgerton afficionado? 106 00:08:10.259 --> 00:08:12.600 What do you call myself an aficiado? 107 00:08:12.600 --> 00:08:16.980 It was just so much fun and it looked so it was shot so well. 108 00:08:17.040 --> 00:08:21.959 It just, it was just, Glamorous is not the word I want to use. 109 00:08:22.019 --> 00:08:40.559 It was, it just had this feel about it, whether you were inside or outside majestic, and I just was drawn into it, and the performance is not only of the characters in terms of the real characters, like the cold open with that very nasty but hot lord. 110 00:08:40.620 --> 00:08:43.860 And then the lady her, um, what's her name? 111 00:08:43.860 --> 00:08:46.080 Indira, um... 112 00:08:46.139 --> 00:08:48.539 And like, she wasn't a nice person either. 113 00:08:48.600 --> 00:08:57.480 Like, they were actually not, like, it was all this intrigue and, you know, the season and all that sort of stuff, and then they were replaced with people who were determined to even go one step further. 114 00:08:57.539 --> 00:08:59.700 I just, the funness and all of that. 115 00:08:59.759 --> 00:09:00.899 I'm still smiling. 116 00:09:00.960 --> 00:09:08.639 Like, it probably is my, could possibly be my, like I said, eight, but I, you know, You're talking yourself up. 117 00:09:08.700 --> 00:09:11.879 I threw myself up, but I just enjoyed the whole thing. 118 00:09:11.940 --> 00:09:24.720 The last 3 weeks, I've enjoyed all of those episodes, but they've all been either Dr. Light for a reason or, or, um, in the doctor in a particular, in one position. 119 00:09:24.779 --> 00:09:28.440 So we had constraints, whereas this didn't have those constraints. 120 00:09:28.500 --> 00:09:30.960 So I just enjoyed the whole spectacle. 121 00:09:31.019 --> 00:09:32.279 It was a spectacle. 122 00:09:32.340 --> 00:09:36.480 And I have to say that shooty just looked absolutely stunning. 123 00:09:36.539 --> 00:09:37.379 Yeah. 124 00:09:37.440 --> 00:09:38.519 Yeah. 125 00:09:38.580 --> 00:09:51.419 Yeah, I think India Obama deserves all of the props because she is unbelievably horrible as Lady Pemberton or whatever she is, Duchess Pemberton. 126 00:09:51.480 --> 00:09:59.879 Um, and then when she's taken over by the bird and she suddenly starts acquiring these sort of birdlike movements, like the way she moves her head. 127 00:09:59.940 --> 00:10:05.279 She's got an alarmingly long neck as well, which she absolutely uses to her advantage. 128 00:10:05.340 --> 00:10:06.779 I just think she's fantastic. 129 00:10:06.840 --> 00:10:10.259 And I think it solves the problem in series one of Torture. 130 00:10:10.320 --> 00:10:13.320 They clearly keep killing Susie because she has foul pest. 131 00:10:15.360 --> 00:10:19.559 They do keep killing Susie, not even in Doctor Who. 132 00:10:19.620 --> 00:10:22.740 Like she, she killed so often. 133 00:10:22.799 --> 00:10:24.000 She killed in everything. 134 00:10:24.840 --> 00:10:27.960 Yeah, no, that was that was so much fun. 135 00:10:28.019 --> 00:10:31.320 Um, And I agree with you, Todd. 136 00:10:31.379 --> 00:10:33.059 It, it, it looks luxe. 137 00:10:33.179 --> 00:10:46.799 And beautiful and I think, you know, that sort of majesticness, um, is bec- probably because they they employed again for the 2nd time this season. 138 00:10:48.240 --> 00:10:50.100 The choreographer from Bridgeton. 139 00:10:50.159 --> 00:10:50.700 Right. 140 00:10:50.759 --> 00:10:51.899 Oh. 141 00:10:51.899 --> 00:10:57.000 Yes, he he choreographed the dancing. 142 00:10:57.000 --> 00:10:59.700 In Devil's Court. 143 00:10:59.759 --> 00:11:00.120 Yeah. 144 00:11:00.179 --> 00:11:01.200 As well. 145 00:11:01.259 --> 00:11:03.720 Yeah, because it's the same director, isn't it? 146 00:11:03.779 --> 00:11:04.799 I did wonder about that actually. 147 00:11:04.860 --> 00:11:06.600 Yeah. interesting. 148 00:11:06.659 --> 00:11:10.139 Can I just say a little slight Bridgerton annoyance that I have? 149 00:11:10.259 --> 00:11:12.720 I mean, I've never I've never watched it, but it is on the list. 150 00:11:12.779 --> 00:11:13.620 We'll get to it eventually. 151 00:11:13.679 --> 00:11:16.139 And I know that it's very much part of the current site, guys. 152 00:11:16.200 --> 00:11:18.539 But I was kind of annoyed that sort of in one line. 153 00:11:18.600 --> 00:11:24.779 We sort of erase 50 or 60 years of quality BBC period drama because it's all about Bridgerton. 154 00:11:24.840 --> 00:11:26.039 Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. 155 00:11:26.340 --> 00:11:31.200 And the other thing is, I'm very glad that we didn't have a real historical figure in it. 156 00:11:31.320 --> 00:11:36.840 I was hoping that like Jane Austen wasn't actually going to turn up because that would have been really tiresome. 157 00:11:36.899 --> 00:11:41.820 You just thought bath, here she is, bath 1813, where she... 158 00:11:41.940 --> 00:11:44.639 I did I did love the... 159 00:11:44.700 --> 00:11:47.700 I mean, I haven't watched Bridgerton, but Jason does. 160 00:11:47.759 --> 00:11:58.139 And so I do catch bits of it in the background and I did love the, uh, the use of, popular music. 161 00:11:58.200 --> 00:11:58.799 Hmm. 162 00:11:58.799 --> 00:12:00.720 Uh, in it. 163 00:12:00.779 --> 00:12:11.940 Like, you know, like, um, The, like, bad guy by Billie Eilish playing when, when, um, with during the meat cube, or, um, was it poker face? 164 00:12:11.940 --> 00:12:18.419 Yeah, it was. during the fight scene between Ruby and the blue the blue dressed bird. 165 00:12:18.480 --> 00:12:19.259 Emily, thank you. 166 00:12:19.379 --> 00:12:21.419 Blue dressed bit. 167 00:12:21.480 --> 00:12:27.600 So yeah, that because that music is being played by notionally being played by the string quartet in the room, not as incidental music. 168 00:12:27.659 --> 00:12:29.940 Yeah, it was kind of... 169 00:12:29.940 --> 00:12:31.200 That is a feature of Bridgerton. 170 00:12:31.259 --> 00:12:32.940 Like that is a thing that Bridget does. 171 00:12:33.000 --> 00:12:34.139 So, I see. 172 00:12:34.200 --> 00:12:35.039 Yeah, yeah, yeah. 173 00:12:35.100 --> 00:12:42.720 So, you know, there is there's a sense in which this isn't said in any kind of actual, you know, 1813 that ever took place. 174 00:12:42.779 --> 00:12:47.340 It is taking place in a Bridgerton version of that, Brendan. 175 00:12:47.399 --> 00:12:55.139 And it gives us a subtle reprise of the, I didn't realise that was diagetic joke from the devil's chord. 176 00:12:55.200 --> 00:12:56.220 Yeah, yeah. 177 00:12:56.279 --> 00:13:08.220 Just further on the music, though, it is actually interesting because those anachronistic selections of music are right, only arrive later because we start with a hide and string quartet in the in the pre-credit sequence. 178 00:13:08.220 --> 00:13:13.620 And then we have another contemporary work from the Pirul from 1801, 1802, something like that. 179 00:13:13.679 --> 00:13:17.340 When the doctor and Ruby are dancing just straight after the credits. 180 00:13:17.399 --> 00:13:20.580 So it's kind of like you sort of lulled into it that way. 181 00:13:20.639 --> 00:13:22.500 So that's actually very, very interesting choice. 182 00:13:22.620 --> 00:13:25.259 I do have to, just on the music, if I may, absolutely. 183 00:13:25.320 --> 00:13:27.360 I mean, great to have poker face and all that sort of stuff. 184 00:13:27.419 --> 00:13:30.840 But I think when Rogue and the doctor are dancing. 185 00:13:30.899 --> 00:13:37.259 I think, having Piazola's libertango, which is about from 973, I think, is a fantastic choice. 186 00:13:37.259 --> 00:13:40.440 And, you know, the music is just perfect for it. 187 00:13:40.500 --> 00:13:48.000 And I don't know whether, I think a lot of the audience would be probably familiar with the music, like they'll go, oh, that rings a bell without actually knowing what it is. 188 00:13:48.059 --> 00:13:49.860 And so I think that's just a super super choice. 189 00:13:49.919 --> 00:13:52.980 I thought the musical school was fabulous, isn't it? 190 00:13:52.980 --> 00:13:53.820 It drew me in. 191 00:13:53.879 --> 00:13:55.620 It was just another layer to everything. 192 00:13:55.679 --> 00:13:57.360 That was going on. 193 00:13:57.419 --> 00:14:00.600 It added to the elegance, the overall flavour. 194 00:14:00.659 --> 00:14:00.899 Yeah. 195 00:14:00.960 --> 00:14:07.139 Just do, and just to sort of hark on, hark on about the, the sort of the majesty of it, for whatever better word. 196 00:14:07.200 --> 00:14:07.740 It's so great. 197 00:14:07.799 --> 00:14:08.820 We are in a large house. 198 00:14:08.879 --> 00:14:09.600 It's not a set. 199 00:14:09.659 --> 00:14:10.679 We've got lots of extras. 200 00:14:10.799 --> 00:14:11.759 It's populated. 201 00:14:11.820 --> 00:14:14.340 There's proper, proper choreographed dance sequences. 202 00:14:14.399 --> 00:14:24.059 The library that's, that, that, that they go to, um, is, is also large and and, it's wonderful to be dimly lit and and, and glorious like that. 203 00:14:24.120 --> 00:14:36.179 And yet, the external sequences are also, at no point am I thinking, oh, this is all just kind of been pasted together from stuff, or this is a bit of half wall, and we grabbed this from this other program, even if they did. 204 00:14:36.240 --> 00:14:36.720 I don't know. 205 00:14:36.779 --> 00:14:38.519 Yeah, yeah. 206 00:14:38.580 --> 00:14:44.700 All right, well, let's move on very quickly and talk about Millie subplot, which is kind of disposable, really. 207 00:14:44.759 --> 00:14:49.139 So it's basically her and Emily and her interactions with the children. 208 00:14:49.200 --> 00:14:51.720 How do we think Millie was served by this episode? 209 00:14:52.740 --> 00:15:01.379 I liked it because I think that often the Doctor 2 companions do go into a subplot and and it's good to see that rather than just being together all the time. 210 00:15:01.440 --> 00:15:11.879 I do think there was a cheat with it because when Emily grabs her and changes, then we cut to outside and there's a lot of flashing, but then in the flashback, there's very little flashing. 211 00:15:11.940 --> 00:15:16.139 I just felt that was a bit naughty. send us up, send us up the garden parts. 212 00:15:16.200 --> 00:15:20.639 And then I was a bit confused because Emily and the Lord were then having their conversation. 213 00:15:21.600 --> 00:15:31.259 And, and were they just play acting that because they knew she was there or was Emily, was Emily actually Emily at that and then got, like, why go through all of that stuff? 214 00:15:31.320 --> 00:15:33.899 Like, I just, I just kind of, that just stuck. 215 00:15:33.960 --> 00:15:34.799 Is that part of the cosplay? 216 00:15:34.919 --> 00:15:36.240 Yes, that's what I think it is. 217 00:15:36.299 --> 00:15:49.620 I think they're having their great scene together and the fun thing is that they have an audience, you know, she's there watching while they do this incredibly important scene from the romance plot that's being cosplayed in this episode. 218 00:15:49.679 --> 00:15:51.720 So I think it does play with that. 219 00:15:51.779 --> 00:15:55.559 Okay, because I loved her, all her clumsy stuff there. 220 00:15:55.620 --> 00:15:58.740 She might be very much of Joe Grant quite frankly, and I just thought she did a wonderful job. 221 00:15:58.799 --> 00:16:00.059 Yes, yes. 222 00:16:00.120 --> 00:16:00.779 Good comparison. 223 00:16:00.840 --> 00:16:06.120 I also liked the sort of hiding in plain sight, the solution. 224 00:16:06.179 --> 00:16:11.580 You know, don't set them into battle mode, which is a throwaway line at the beginning of the episode. 225 00:16:11.639 --> 00:16:15.960 And then it's the way you solve the, oh, how the hell did you get out of that? 226 00:16:16.019 --> 00:16:21.179 They do a good job there too, of setting up the rules of the triform in the other plot. 227 00:16:21.240 --> 00:16:27.179 So we get to see that in operation before we get to see it play a major part in the episode. 228 00:16:27.240 --> 00:16:31.139 And, you know, nothing just sort of comes out of nowhere. 229 00:16:31.200 --> 00:16:33.419 It is all very carefully structured, I think. 230 00:16:33.480 --> 00:16:36.659 Yes, and that that old law of conservation of information. 231 00:16:36.720 --> 00:16:38.940 Yes, the fact that, you know, why do I know how to dance? 232 00:16:39.000 --> 00:16:41.100 Oh, it's because of the earrings, which is actually at the time when I'm watching that. 233 00:16:41.159 --> 00:16:42.179 I was like, oh, we don't care. 234 00:16:42.240 --> 00:16:43.500 I don't care how she knows I did that. 235 00:16:43.559 --> 00:16:44.460 She just does. 236 00:16:44.519 --> 00:16:48.179 You know, I'm sick of the explanation, but yeah, the payoff is the earrings. 237 00:16:48.240 --> 00:16:50.039 Although do we really need that anyway? 238 00:16:50.100 --> 00:16:50.399 Whatever. 239 00:16:50.460 --> 00:16:51.179 Yeah. 240 00:16:51.179 --> 00:17:09.359 Something I really loved about Millie this week is she's really showing her comedy chops because there's several, there's several times when things are happening around her and she's just kind of doing sort of pointing and faces like, do I go over, this is so awkward. 241 00:17:09.420 --> 00:17:11.940 Oh, wait, I'm not watching this as a TV show. 242 00:17:12.000 --> 00:17:12.720 I need to go over there. 243 00:17:12.900 --> 00:17:23.160 And just, there are actors and comedians who have, you know, trained years to do that, and it's so easy to forget that Millie is 18. 244 00:17:23.339 --> 00:17:24.720 You know? 245 00:17:24.779 --> 00:17:35.460 And yes, she's been acting for years, but just her level of at times subtlety and at times broadness, she pitches it perfectly. 246 00:17:35.460 --> 00:17:41.700 And I was so impressed and especially like the battle mode scene where she's surprised by what she's doing. 247 00:17:41.819 --> 00:17:43.319 Yeah, yeah. 248 00:17:43.319 --> 00:17:44.220 Yeah. 249 00:17:44.279 --> 00:17:44.880 All right. 250 00:17:44.940 --> 00:17:46.200 Well, let's talk about the romance. 251 00:17:46.319 --> 00:17:56.220 For me, this is really something where you have one night where the doctor meets a handsome stranger, they fight monsters together. 252 00:17:56.279 --> 00:18:05.759 They exchange, you know, they talk to one another about how much they've lost, and then he disappears from his life forever. 253 00:18:05.819 --> 00:18:10.859 And I thought that that just was a great structure. 254 00:18:10.920 --> 00:18:12.960 And it's something that Doctor Who hasn't done. 255 00:18:13.019 --> 00:18:16.440 I mean, we've had River, we've had Jack, sort of. 256 00:18:16.500 --> 00:18:20.579 But this, I think, is something quite different from that. 257 00:18:21.900 --> 00:18:26.099 How do we feel about Jonathan Groff, Simon? 258 00:18:26.640 --> 00:18:31.500 At the risk of flexing that I just saw him on Broadway in Merrily we Roll along. 259 00:18:31.559 --> 00:18:32.519 This is what we are. 260 00:18:32.579 --> 00:18:34.920 This is... 261 00:18:34.920 --> 00:18:36.000 You dropped this. 262 00:18:38.279 --> 00:18:49.740 The performance was actually remarkably similar to the one I just saw on stake in that he was very, you just know, and just in terms of the fact that he was very still, and also he was very underplayed compared with everything else going on around him. 263 00:18:49.799 --> 00:18:53.519 And I really like him as an actor. 264 00:18:53.579 --> 00:18:55.559 I think he's great. 265 00:18:55.619 --> 00:19:12.539 I am questioning whether there is a fine line between being understated and being flat and I'm not 100% sure that he's not just sometimes flat because he's trying to be still, he's trying to be obviously suave and cool and everything, but not in an annoying way. 266 00:19:12.660 --> 00:19:19.079 And I think contrasted with shooting and contrasted with all the other heightened performances which are going on around him. 267 00:19:19.140 --> 00:19:21.240 It is a little bit out of place. 268 00:19:21.299 --> 00:19:24.779 Having said that, you know, he's great and he certainly does know what he's doing. 269 00:19:24.839 --> 00:19:27.420 I wouldn't dare to question the choices. 270 00:19:27.480 --> 00:19:30.539 See, I think he's a shy nerd. 271 00:19:30.599 --> 00:19:37.740 You know, who secretly loves Kylie and plays Dungeons and Dragons and named himself after the rogue class. 272 00:19:37.799 --> 00:19:51.839 And so we expected him to be Jack and we're kind of fooled into that because we get the scene from the empty child only instead of someone taking the companion to their spaceship. 273 00:19:51.900 --> 00:19:54.000 He takes the doctor to the spaceship. 274 00:19:54.059 --> 00:19:56.039 And it is exactly that scene, isn't it? 275 00:19:56.700 --> 00:20:08.579 But he's lonely and he's on his own and he's he's charmed by the doctor, but he's also very quiet and nerdy. 276 00:20:08.640 --> 00:20:13.500 He's not the loud suave guy that Jack is at all. 277 00:20:13.980 --> 00:20:16.680 So he's Henry Cavell is what you're saying. 278 00:20:16.980 --> 00:20:18.599 He wishes. 279 00:20:18.660 --> 00:20:19.859 No, he can act. 280 00:20:19.920 --> 00:20:20.640 Sorry, Brendan. 281 00:20:20.700 --> 00:20:22.079 Yeah, I was going to say it's bad. 282 00:20:22.140 --> 00:20:24.359 Don't be rude to Jonathan Groff. 283 00:20:27.599 --> 00:20:51.960 Yeah, I found, I found their chemistry rather wonderful and um, something I said to um, uh, friend of the podcast this week and it was either Bob or Alex, so if you're listening, Lads High, um, was, I think the doctor sees his pain, his past pain in rogue. 284 00:20:52.019 --> 00:20:57.839 And in the doctor, Rogue sees someone he'd like to be more like because he's a bounty hunter. 285 00:20:57.900 --> 00:21:02.099 But It's not like a blood sport. 286 00:21:02.160 --> 00:21:19.140 And you know, I think this interpretation of the word bounty hunter is very informed by the Mandalorian, another Disney Plus property. in that this is an honourable figure who is interested in protecting the lives of innocence, and that's why he does what he does, but is also deeply lonely. 287 00:21:19.380 --> 00:21:22.380 And I think the doctor recognises that. 288 00:21:22.799 --> 00:21:25.619 I agree with you, Brendan, on this. 289 00:21:25.680 --> 00:21:34.680 I kind of think there is this connection between them which slowly builds because the doctor sees certain things in rogue and then rogue sees certain things in the doctor. 290 00:21:34.740 --> 00:21:38.640 So as it goes along through all that Kylie stuff, that's slowly building. 291 00:21:38.700 --> 00:21:48.839 And I actually think it goes at a pretty, well, I think it goes at a good pace, you know, and I actually see, you know, all the stuff in the TARDIS and the little flirting there and the almost kissing and all that. 292 00:21:48.900 --> 00:21:53.339 I just, I just love the way in which you'd sort of built and I actually thought they had a good chemistry. 293 00:21:53.400 --> 00:21:56.099 And I think, um, Simon Wright, you're right. 294 00:21:56.160 --> 00:22:00.180 Like he certainly underplayed it more, but there were certain times where you could see he wanted to. 295 00:22:01.079 --> 00:22:08.940 You know, he wanted to give more, you know, and he's obviously gone through a lot of pain and and I just bought, you know, when he went down on his knee with the ring in that scene. 296 00:22:09.000 --> 00:22:15.480 I almost lost it, like, you know, and then, and then at the end, you know, with the kiss and his sacrifice. 297 00:22:15.539 --> 00:22:17.220 I mean, I bought the whole thing. 298 00:22:17.279 --> 00:22:19.799 I was just swept away in the romance of it all. 299 00:22:19.859 --> 00:22:22.200 I mean, I don't want to... 300 00:22:22.200 --> 00:22:25.259 This is Dizzy's performance because I think he's very good. 301 00:22:25.319 --> 00:22:29.880 It's just that I couldn't help thinking, as you're saying, Nathan, the kind of the shy nerd. 302 00:22:29.940 --> 00:22:34.140 I kind of, I just wanted to see that that being a little bit more visible in his performance than it was. 303 00:22:34.200 --> 00:22:34.619 That's all. 304 00:22:34.740 --> 00:22:43.319 I just, and it's just partly because of the, the, the kind of level of performance of everything else around him. need to be the population. more, don't you, in Doctor Who? 305 00:22:43.380 --> 00:22:43.619 Exactly. 306 00:22:43.680 --> 00:22:44.279 Yeah, yeah, yeah. 307 00:22:44.339 --> 00:22:44.819 Yeah, yeah, yeah. 308 00:22:44.880 --> 00:22:46.440 But, I mean, he's so charming. 309 00:22:46.500 --> 00:22:47.819 The 2 of them are so attractive. 310 00:22:47.880 --> 00:22:55.559 And, you know, like instantly even up on the balcony, they're kind of flirting and having fun with one another. 311 00:22:55.559 --> 00:23:04.859 And the doctor like dancing and like lip syncing to Kylie in the sort of incredibly kind of sexy way. 312 00:23:04.859 --> 00:23:07.200 And, you know, I don't know. 313 00:23:08.519 --> 00:23:45.660 We've had the doctor fall in love with someone in an episode before, we mentioned girl in the fireplace, and maybe this is something for flights through entirety, but I remember that Paul Cornell when he made John Smith fall in love with Joan Redford, one of the things that he said to us in the book was that, he made the doctor straight and that was a thing that meant that something had been lost because Doctor Who had a gay fandom and one of the reasons it had a gay fandom was that the doctor travelled with these beautiful women but wasn't really particularly interested in them. 314 00:23:45.720 --> 00:23:52.559 He wasn't a normal romantic hero and we could kind of insert ourselves in there. 315 00:23:52.619 --> 00:23:53.579 Do you know what I mean? 316 00:23:53.640 --> 00:23:55.559 We could identify with that in some way. 317 00:23:55.619 --> 00:24:04.619 And by making him heterosexual, I think we do open the character up, make him more interesting, give him the chance to be involved in romance and things. 318 00:24:04.740 --> 00:24:10.799 And so now this is us being represented as well in the character of the doctor. 319 00:24:10.859 --> 00:24:15.000 And I thought it was pretty, it was pretty amazing actually. 320 00:24:15.059 --> 00:24:22.680 And the fake, the faint with that, they're gonna kiss, but they don't, because the thing dings, and you sort of think, oh, well, they're not gonna kiss then. 321 00:24:22.740 --> 00:24:24.059 That's done. 322 00:24:24.059 --> 00:24:25.799 And of course, the highlight. 323 00:24:25.859 --> 00:24:29.819 Um, you know, that the big kiss at the end, which is so wonderful. 324 00:24:29.880 --> 00:24:32.400 Uh, you know, I just... 325 00:24:32.400 --> 00:24:33.180 Ruby's reaction. 326 00:24:33.240 --> 00:24:34.740 Yeah, yeah. 327 00:24:34.799 --> 00:24:39.420 Even though she's about to be sent to a barren dimension somewhere. 328 00:24:40.500 --> 00:24:46.980 The warmth and generosity there at the end, like in that moment and then making the doctor hug it out. 329 00:24:47.039 --> 00:24:47.819 Yeah. 330 00:24:47.880 --> 00:24:53.940 You know, it's her performance as that character, I really, really love those aspects. 331 00:24:54.480 --> 00:25:03.480 I think, though, there's a difference between the way this is done and the way say girl in the fireplace is done or any of the other, like the river and so on. 332 00:25:03.539 --> 00:25:08.160 The, the, the, the kind of the, the falling in love aspects. 333 00:25:08.220 --> 00:25:13.859 He really falls into an emotional love with Madame de Pompadour in that. 334 00:25:14.160 --> 00:25:19.380 This, I think, is different because it is, and certainly with River as well. 335 00:25:19.440 --> 00:25:22.559 It's an intellectual and emotional attachment and love. 336 00:25:23.400 --> 00:25:49.019 With this, I think this is the 1st time you get the concept of the doctor being a sexual being because there is a bit more of an animalistic desire that I think we're seeing there, in the passion of the kiss and and also the way the doctor is flirting with rogue, very, very actively, like, whereas with River and Madame de Pompadour, he's being, doctors being courted by them, really. 337 00:25:49.079 --> 00:25:57.299 Whereas in this case, the doctor is at least an equal partner, if not, he's the one almost making the moves on rogue. 338 00:25:57.299 --> 00:26:00.660 And I think that is a different way of doing it. 339 00:26:00.720 --> 00:26:04.380 Now, I do subscribe to that kind of whilst I love girl in the fireplace. 340 00:26:04.440 --> 00:26:05.819 I love human nature, et cetera, et cetera. 341 00:26:05.940 --> 00:26:07.259 And I love the relationship with the river. 342 00:26:07.319 --> 00:26:10.859 I still always default to the fact that, you know, I still like that doctor. 343 00:26:10.920 --> 00:26:13.799 Not so much being an asexual being, but it's just something that we just don't really deal with. 344 00:26:13.859 --> 00:26:31.920 And I think it's okay for it to be done like very sparingly, and I get that it's part of what you need to do in the modern era, but I query where there's some of the discomfort that some people have had with that has not been around that I've read online, has not been around the gayness of it per se, but about the doctor being a more sexual being. 345 00:26:31.980 --> 00:26:36.599 And I don't think the doctor's necessarily straight for human nature. 346 00:26:36.660 --> 00:26:39.119 He's neither straight nor gain nor b nor anything. 347 00:26:39.180 --> 00:26:49.140 He's kind of, because he's an alien, it's, it's, it, it may be, maybe he has different sexualities depending on the regeneration or maybe he's always got all sexualities. 348 00:26:49.200 --> 00:26:49.619 Who knows? 349 00:26:49.680 --> 00:26:57.900 It's just that ability to be able to read your own, your own vision, your own interpretation into different aspects of the program. 350 00:26:57.960 --> 00:27:03.539 And I think we should always, the program should always aspire to be able to be open to all those interpretations simultaneously. 351 00:27:03.660 --> 00:27:28.740 I think, though, that the, while they are both sexy men and while they are flirting with one another, it's, um, the kneeling down, which is so romantic, where he kneels and gives him like that, it's incredibly romantic, the moment where they open up and they see the loss that each of them is experienced, you know, like there is an emotional level. 352 00:27:28.799 --> 00:27:30.299 It isn't just about sex. 353 00:27:30.359 --> 00:27:42.779 And I do think, yeah, I think that, you know, there's a reason, you know, certainly there are people who prefer the show where the doctor isn't, um, uh, you know, isn't involved in romances. 354 00:27:42.839 --> 00:27:44.700 The doctor doesn't dance. 355 00:27:44.759 --> 00:27:58.559 Yeah, my feeling, though, is that there are people leaping online to complain about girl in the fireplace. and I think that their complaints are fairly, clearly motivated for one thing. 356 00:27:58.619 --> 00:27:59.819 Yeah. 357 00:27:59.819 --> 00:28:00.000 Yeah. 358 00:28:00.059 --> 00:28:03.960 Because I do think, like, I do think this is adorably romantic. 359 00:28:03.960 --> 00:28:18.240 And I think you're right, Simon. he's never said to be straight, we've never had him, you know, given a label and even now we haven't, you know, but we did see him in a lot of mixed sex relationships. 360 00:28:18.299 --> 00:28:29.160 We've seen him in lots of heterosexual relationships and I think Moffatt constructs him as a straight man because Moffatt has things to say about, um, about men and women and the relationships between them. 361 00:28:29.160 --> 00:28:32.519 And all of that is really good and I enjoyed all of that stuff at the time. 362 00:28:32.759 --> 00:28:37.619 But actually seeing him kiss a man in a way that we haven't seen before. 363 00:28:37.619 --> 00:28:41.339 And, you know, he doesn't kiss Jack, Jack kisses him. 364 00:28:41.400 --> 00:28:43.440 I think it's it matters. 365 00:28:43.559 --> 00:28:46.140 And it's not a it's not a romantic kiss with Jack. 366 00:28:46.200 --> 00:28:47.400 No. 367 00:28:47.460 --> 00:28:53.519 Also, the idea of doing a queer romance came from the writers, not from Russell. 368 00:28:53.579 --> 00:28:54.180 Yeah. 369 00:28:54.240 --> 00:28:55.980 They actually suggested it to him. 370 00:28:56.039 --> 00:29:11.279 The funny thing is that Kate Heron directed an executive produced the 1st season of Loki, and Russell said that saying that Loki was bisexual was just absolute cheap representation because they never showed anything. 371 00:29:11.339 --> 00:29:16.559 You can put the word bisexual, you can type it into your script and it costs you absolutely nothing at all. 372 00:29:16.619 --> 00:29:22.740 And so when he hires her, she says, all right, you know, I'm doing it and he's going to be kissing a man. 373 00:29:22.799 --> 00:29:23.880 I think that's pretty great. 374 00:29:24.660 --> 00:29:34.500 I also think, like, you know, with the bi-regeneration thing, is that a lot of the baggage of the doctor has gone, and we've seen him in shooting that is much more emotional. 375 00:29:34.559 --> 00:29:35.819 Like he's crying so much. 376 00:29:35.880 --> 00:29:45.420 Like again, at the end of the episode, there are tears, and I think that allows him to be more open to actually take the lead in being the romantic lead. 377 00:29:45.539 --> 00:29:52.019 And I mean, if you look at the, and going back to what Simon's saying, like, you know, in the original series run, the doctor was very asexual. 378 00:29:52.079 --> 00:29:58.019 In the next generation from 2004 to 2022, a lot of people instigated the romance on him. 379 00:29:58.079 --> 00:30:03.660 Here, he is, this is now a different series, series, season one or series one again. 380 00:30:03.720 --> 00:30:09.359 So it's it is a new way of interpreting the doctor and I'm all for it, you know? 381 00:30:09.420 --> 00:30:11.700 I'm all forward. all for it as a one-off, certainly. 382 00:30:11.759 --> 00:30:13.920 But, you know, are you going to do it every week? 383 00:30:13.980 --> 00:30:14.519 No, you're not. 384 00:30:14.579 --> 00:30:19.200 But it's nice to see a difference from what has happened before, you know? 385 00:30:19.259 --> 00:30:22.440 And representation certainly in the way it's been done. 386 00:30:22.500 --> 00:30:24.240 You better find him though. 387 00:30:24.299 --> 00:30:25.380 Yeah, absolutely. 388 00:30:25.440 --> 00:30:26.640 All right. 389 00:30:26.700 --> 00:30:28.619 I think we're going to wind it up there. 390 00:30:28.680 --> 00:30:39.660 We've got some things to plug, untitled Star Trek Project is on, obviously, every Friday, and I can't even remember what our next episode is, but I'm sure it's lovely. 391 00:30:39.720 --> 00:30:41.400 We're a few weeks ahead. 392 00:30:41.579 --> 00:30:45.660 Startling Barbara Bain, I think, is probably recording next week. 393 00:30:45.779 --> 00:30:55.680 If you don't know about it, it's our Space 1999 commentary podcast, which is pretty fun and is about to drop its 6th episode. 394 00:30:55.740 --> 00:30:57.839 Brendan, what do you want to plug? 395 00:30:58.019 --> 00:31:17.039 Before I plug, I just want to say, um, if you enjoyed uh, the doctor inadvertently getting a marriage proposal and a companion almost being married off against their will, not to mention the doctor's actions inadvertently almost leading to the death of a companion, you might enjoy Doctor Who, the Aztecs. 396 00:31:17.279 --> 00:31:21.059 Oh, this is your link to this is my link. 397 00:31:21.119 --> 00:31:22.440 This is my link. 398 00:31:22.500 --> 00:31:33.180 And as I as I wasn't on last week, I can say last week's link to the keys of Baroness is that we have a global computer controlling how people think and feel. 399 00:31:33.240 --> 00:31:37.200 And a set of monsters where you're like, maybe they've got a point. 400 00:31:37.920 --> 00:31:45.779 And at the end, our sort of vapid blonde hero goes up and says, yeah, I'll be fine as she walks towards an acid C. 401 00:31:45.839 --> 00:31:47.339 Brilliant. 402 00:31:47.400 --> 00:31:48.900 What's up to the Aztecs? 403 00:31:48.960 --> 00:31:50.759 The sensor rights. 404 00:31:50.819 --> 00:31:52.680 So I'll be interested to see how it helps. 405 00:31:53.339 --> 00:31:57.480 A legend of Ruby Sunday. measures up to the sensorize. 406 00:31:57.539 --> 00:32:20.220 But yes, in terms of what I have to plug, the BJBJ game show will be back next week with the tourist, and after that, we are playing the Talos principal, and also back next week is the three-handed game where we are going into the new Avengers to start off the cool war with to catch a rat. 407 00:32:20.339 --> 00:32:21.480 Brilliant. 408 00:32:21.839 --> 00:32:31.980 All right, in that case, until next time, I've been boarding up all the doors and windows here, so Susan Twist can't get in, so that might be something you might want to consider. 409 00:32:32.039 --> 00:32:34.799 Thank you very much for listening and good night. 410 00:32:34.859 --> 00:32:35.940 Good night. 411 00:32:36.059 --> 00:32:37.019 Ta-ta. 412 00:32:37.140 --> 00:32:37.980 Bye-bye. 413 00:32:38.039 --> 00:32:39.180 See you soon.