WEBVTT NOTE This transcript was created on 2026-06-07 at 11:57:23 1 00:00:00.000 --> 00:00:14.039 Hello, dear listener, and welcome back to the 2nd great and bountiful Human Empire, the only Doctor Who flash cast where half of the hosts are recording in their underpants and the other half are going commando, and we'll let you imagine who's in which half. 2 00:00:14.099 --> 00:00:15.599 I'm Nathan. 3 00:00:15.660 --> 00:00:16.980 I'm Brendan. 4 00:00:17.039 --> 00:00:18.539 I'm James. 5 00:00:18.600 --> 00:00:20.219 And I'm Simon. 6 00:00:20.280 --> 00:00:29.460 Well, so we watched yesterday the last of the 60th anniversary specials, The Giggle by RTD and directed by Chanya Button. 7 00:00:29.519 --> 00:00:40.320 I'm going to go round the table and try not to think too hard about what everyone's wearing and we'll find out what people thought of it just overall. 8 00:00:40.380 --> 00:00:42.719 How did you find it, Brendan? 9 00:00:42.960 --> 00:00:47.640 Can I just ask, is the commando Colonel Ibrahim in this instance? 10 00:00:47.640 --> 00:00:51.119 Because I am 100% behind that. 11 00:00:51.179 --> 00:00:55.259 We've had a hot unit commander in 2 out of 3 of these. 12 00:00:55.320 --> 00:00:58.020 Yeah, it's a pattern, I think. 13 00:00:58.079 --> 00:00:58.619 Yeah. 14 00:00:58.619 --> 00:01:01.799 I had misgivings. 15 00:01:01.859 --> 00:01:03.119 I thought, oh, hold on. 16 00:01:03.179 --> 00:01:04.260 What don't I like? 17 00:01:04.319 --> 00:01:06.060 Oh, I'm not entirely clear. 18 00:01:06.120 --> 00:01:07.980 And so when I watched it again, it's like, right. 19 00:01:08.040 --> 00:01:13.799 I'm going to watch this particular section very clearly to see if it says what I think it says, I'm like, oh, it does. 20 00:01:13.859 --> 00:01:14.159 Okay. 21 00:01:14.219 --> 00:01:15.840 So my 2nd time through. 22 00:01:15.900 --> 00:01:18.120 I was able to enjoy it a lot more. 23 00:01:18.180 --> 00:01:24.000 There was like a few hours between those where I'm just kind of sitting there going, I'm not sure I like that. 24 00:01:24.060 --> 00:01:25.079 Not, no. 25 00:01:25.079 --> 00:01:25.980 Mm. 26 00:01:26.040 --> 00:01:27.780 What did you think, James? 27 00:01:28.260 --> 00:01:30.959 Uh, look, I really liked it. 28 00:01:31.019 --> 00:01:35.819 Uh, I was expecting a lot of what happened in the story. 29 00:01:35.879 --> 00:01:38.640 But I was pleasantly surprised in how it was managed. 30 00:01:39.659 --> 00:01:44.400 The performances were just so enjoyable. 31 00:01:44.459 --> 00:01:51.780 Uh, and we'll get to this later in the episode, of course, but, um, duty amazing. 32 00:01:52.079 --> 00:02:00.420 And and yeah, look, I mean, we knew, I think we most of us knew a lot of what was coming in this story. 33 00:02:00.480 --> 00:02:09.479 Uh, a lot of it had been spoiled um, over the last year, but not to extent that it ruined the enjoyment of the episode. 34 00:02:10.199 --> 00:02:15.840 So overall, I was, yeah, there were moments when I was in, I was crying. 35 00:02:15.900 --> 00:02:22.919 There were moments when I was punching the air, uh, and I, yeah, I was really pleasantly surprised. 36 00:02:22.979 --> 00:02:24.060 Simon. 37 00:02:24.780 --> 00:02:27.659 Well, I don't feel I was particularly spoiled. 38 00:02:27.719 --> 00:02:31.919 Maybe I don't spend enough time online or maybe that means I spend the correct amount of time online. 39 00:02:31.979 --> 00:02:34.800 I don't know, but I thought it was really, really good. 40 00:02:34.860 --> 00:02:40.379 You know, I mean, obviously I have a few reservations on a couple of things, but they're at the periphery. 41 00:02:40.439 --> 00:02:53.460 The whole episode for me is about the fantastic performance of Neil Patrick Harris and just the quality of that performance and the detail he brings to so many parts of it is just so wonderful. 42 00:02:53.520 --> 00:03:00.120 And what's great is to have a humanoid villain on the right side of the chewing the scenery line. 43 00:03:00.180 --> 00:03:00.960 Yes, he's big. 44 00:03:01.020 --> 00:03:01.979 Yes, he's chewing the scenery. 45 00:03:02.039 --> 00:03:10.439 Yes, he's showering off and doing everything, but I am carried along with it absolutely every step of the way and that, for me, absolutely makes the episode. 46 00:03:10.500 --> 00:03:19.740 So I'm prepared to eat my words and the reservations I had about sort of RTD to from last week and this week, whilst again there are some peripheral things that, you know, I wish were a bit different. 47 00:03:19.800 --> 00:03:21.840 I had 2 of the best weeks of my Doctor Who life. 48 00:03:21.900 --> 00:03:23.819 Oh, wonderful. 49 00:03:23.879 --> 00:03:26.159 I thought it was really tremendous. 50 00:03:26.219 --> 00:03:35.099 I was slightly spoiled because I had the idea that we weren't going to say goodbye to the 14th doctor. finally. 51 00:03:35.159 --> 00:03:37.080 But that was really all that I knew. 52 00:03:37.139 --> 00:03:42.900 And otherwise I was kind of largely unspoiled except for what I'd seen in the trailers and things like that. 53 00:03:42.960 --> 00:03:45.719 So that's exactly the right amount of spoiled, I think. 54 00:03:45.780 --> 00:03:48.240 But yes, it exceeded my expectations. 55 00:03:48.300 --> 00:03:49.800 It was very, very clever. 56 00:03:49.860 --> 00:03:59.580 And it did a thing which I'll talk about a little bit later, which I think is long overdue in New Doctor Who, and which I'm really looking forward to playing out over the next few years. 57 00:03:59.759 --> 00:04:02.219 Let's talk about the beginning. 58 00:04:02.280 --> 00:04:13.139 I think there's a few things that happen in this episode, and I want to talk about just the very beginning when we were 1st introduced to the toymaker in that opening scene back in 1925. 59 00:04:13.620 --> 00:04:20.819 What do you think about how the Toymaker gets introduced to us and how he works as a character in this context? 60 00:04:20.879 --> 00:04:22.920 What about you, Simon? 61 00:04:23.040 --> 00:04:33.420 The kind of comedy German accent where at 1st you're going, oh, is this actually going where I want it to go, is quickly papered over by the fact that, you know, the other guy into your accent when he's kind of changing. 62 00:04:33.480 --> 00:04:35.100 So he's definitely playing that up. 63 00:04:35.160 --> 00:04:36.180 It's creepy. 64 00:04:36.180 --> 00:04:39.360 Neil Patrick Harris owns the screen the 2nd he steps onto it. 65 00:04:39.420 --> 00:04:45.120 It's that great typical old style mysterious opening to a Doctor Who story. 66 00:04:45.180 --> 00:04:46.800 So I really loved it. 67 00:04:46.860 --> 00:04:47.819 Brendan? 68 00:04:47.879 --> 00:04:51.959 Yes, I very much enjoyed that 1st scene. 69 00:04:52.019 --> 00:05:01.439 And I think one of the lines that just made me chuckle was, it is raining here with all this delicious splashing on the pavement. 70 00:05:04.800 --> 00:05:11.279 I want to know how much, sorry, Brandon, I want to know how much of that was actually scripted and how much of that is, is Adelaide. 71 00:05:11.339 --> 00:05:12.839 Totally. 72 00:05:12.899 --> 00:05:17.939 Yeah, there is an interview with Neil Patrick on YouTube just saying this is unlike anything I've ever done. 73 00:05:18.000 --> 00:05:19.139 I'm like, well, don't puppetry. 74 00:05:19.199 --> 00:05:19.800 I done juggling. 75 00:05:19.860 --> 00:05:21.120 I done dancing, I've done singing. 76 00:05:21.180 --> 00:05:22.740 I've never done them all in the one production. 77 00:05:24.540 --> 00:05:26.100 James? 78 00:05:26.160 --> 00:05:42.060 What I love, what I love about that scene is that they are taking a character who has been problematically racist in the past because of production decisions and making him deliberately racist to show that he is evil. 79 00:05:42.120 --> 00:05:47.399 That horrible comment about you, you know, oh, you're used to sunny at times. 80 00:05:47.459 --> 00:05:55.560 It's it's basically hanging a lantern on it and and also saying this person is doing this because they are. 81 00:05:55.620 --> 00:05:57.899 I've asked it, basically. 82 00:05:57.959 --> 00:06:21.180 I mean, I think that the interesting thing is that the original toymaker isn't played in Yellowface and Michael Goff doesn't do an accent, but what it is doing is what Professor Lightfoot's character does in talons of Wing Chiang or what his family does, they appropriate, you know, the culture of the place that they've kind of invaded and colonised or been involved in that. 83 00:06:21.240 --> 00:06:37.439 And I gather that, um, Russell himself made some comment in unleashed about kind of the idea of making the toy maker, a racist as kind of a way of, a way of making him useable, I think, in the current day. 84 00:06:37.500 --> 00:06:39.720 And I think he works incredibly well. 85 00:06:39.779 --> 00:06:47.759 You know, his evil posh English accent was the accent that he does that I liked the best, I think. 86 00:06:47.819 --> 00:06:53.339 Although he's American, you know, I guess that's okay then during the puppet show was also pretty great. 87 00:06:53.399 --> 00:06:57.540 That's actually the most the most dark part of his accents, actually. 88 00:06:57.600 --> 00:07:02.699 It's it's, but I guess that's all right then. is actually the darkest thing. 89 00:07:02.759 --> 00:07:10.199 Look, I mean, I sort of, I'm not prepared to sort of agree or disagree with anything that you said there, James, because I think that we don't really care. 90 00:07:10.259 --> 00:07:17.939 You can't solve all of the deliberate or accidental bits of racism from the show's history, particularly from the show's early history. 91 00:07:18.000 --> 00:07:33.839 And I think that doing what they did in this just gives enough of a little nod to the concerns that some of the audience will have to say that, look, we know what your concern is, and look, where we've tried to address it here, without making the whole thing about it, because that would have just been utterly dumb. 92 00:07:33.959 --> 00:07:34.379 Yeah, exactly. 93 00:07:34.439 --> 00:07:37.560 I think that's the right level to pitch that. 94 00:07:37.620 --> 00:07:38.279 Yeah, yeah. 95 00:07:38.339 --> 00:07:41.639 So let's move on to the unit show. 96 00:07:41.699 --> 00:07:44.759 And for those people who are hoping for a unit spinoff. 97 00:07:44.819 --> 00:07:47.939 That's almost what this looked like. 98 00:07:48.000 --> 00:07:49.740 It was a back door pilot for. 99 00:07:49.800 --> 00:07:58.319 I'm still not convinced that our unit's been off has legs, but I do think that this is a version of unit that we will actually see going forward. 100 00:07:58.379 --> 00:08:08.040 And of course, we see them investigating the mysterious sound that has turned all of humanity into a YouTube comment section. 101 00:08:08.100 --> 00:08:11.699 So what did we think about that? 102 00:08:11.759 --> 00:08:15.060 Yeah, look, I quite like the unit set. 103 00:08:15.120 --> 00:08:18.420 I think as an ongoing set for a TV series. 104 00:08:18.480 --> 00:08:23.699 You kind of got a massive set with about 10 people sitting behind desks in it. 105 00:08:23.759 --> 00:08:27.839 But, you know, all looking at a screen. 106 00:08:27.899 --> 00:08:33.659 It's the Star Trek, the original series problem of everyone's hunched over their consoles waiting for something to happen. 107 00:08:34.259 --> 00:08:39.600 But that being said, I like this group of people. 108 00:08:39.659 --> 00:08:46.740 I like Kate Lithbridge Stewart and it looks like someone said to her, can you act a little bit more, please? 109 00:08:47.639 --> 00:08:52.440 Peter can't be with us tonight, but I'd love to hear his thoughts on the performance. 110 00:08:52.500 --> 00:08:55.860 Of course, I love Ruth Madely as Shirley. 111 00:08:57.120 --> 00:08:58.860 Melt back. 112 00:08:58.919 --> 00:09:00.419 No, Mel, let's go. 113 00:09:00.480 --> 00:09:00.899 Yes. 114 00:09:00.899 --> 00:09:03.539 It's, that's, and that's amazing. 115 00:09:03.600 --> 00:09:13.019 And, you know, we know that Aces don't work for Unit and Tegan's don't work for Unit and Kate offered everyone a job at Companions Anonymous a few weeks ago. 116 00:09:13.080 --> 00:09:16.379 So, and then you've got, yeah, silly robot man. 117 00:09:16.440 --> 00:09:18.360 Yeah, what the hell's that? 118 00:09:18.419 --> 00:09:19.799 It's the Links. 119 00:09:20.639 --> 00:09:23.580 Was I supposed to know what was I supposed to know what that was? 120 00:09:23.639 --> 00:09:25.440 No, you see, good. 121 00:09:25.500 --> 00:09:36.779 It's deliberately there and I'm hoping that it's an ongoing character that he's literally never explained to us and that it's just this sort of robot that they have and we have literally no idea. 122 00:09:36.840 --> 00:09:43.740 It's the morn from Deep Space 9 of this version of unit, and I think that that would be actually pretty gray. 123 00:09:43.799 --> 00:09:45.000 It is very funny. 124 00:09:45.059 --> 00:09:52.559 Russell is already on record as saying that character will return. in an upgraded form. 125 00:09:52.620 --> 00:09:54.840 So perhaps able to actually move. 126 00:09:56.519 --> 00:10:00.539 It did look like it was the cheapest part of the entire thing, if I may say. 127 00:10:00.600 --> 00:10:02.399 But I have to say puppets. 128 00:10:02.460 --> 00:10:04.620 I puppet villains. 129 00:10:04.679 --> 00:10:06.179 I want there to be more puppet villains. 130 00:10:06.240 --> 00:10:07.620 You like the return of the puppets, do you? 131 00:10:07.679 --> 00:10:08.759 puppets. 132 00:10:08.820 --> 00:10:10.379 Heaps of puppets this episode. 133 00:10:10.440 --> 00:10:12.779 All little creatures from the end of colony in space kind of thing. 134 00:10:13.559 --> 00:10:26.700 Russell was saying in interviews and hospital, so unleashed this week that originally, as scripted, the villain of this story is Spooky Bill. 135 00:10:29.220 --> 00:10:36.480 And he got quite far through the drafting process before he realised, this isn't working. 136 00:10:36.539 --> 00:10:43.259 I cannot have this puppet menacing David Turner on a rooftop. 50 floors up. 137 00:10:43.320 --> 00:10:44.639 What can I do? 138 00:10:44.700 --> 00:10:46.740 He's a puppet or I need a puppet pasta. 139 00:10:46.799 --> 00:10:48.539 Maybe a toy maker. 140 00:10:50.700 --> 00:10:57.240 And also the idea of villainous puppets and a villainous toy maker is in the zeitgeist at the moment. 141 00:10:57.299 --> 00:10:58.440 You have the Annabelle movies. 142 00:10:58.500 --> 00:11:06.899 You have Megan, which, you know, I know that's an automaton rather than a puppet, but it's in the zeitgeist. 143 00:11:06.960 --> 00:11:10.500 But yeah, I think we're definitely seeing a bit of that. 144 00:11:10.559 --> 00:11:10.860 Yeah. 145 00:11:10.919 --> 00:11:14.820 Did everyone else jump when the puppet's mouth dropped open? 146 00:11:15.720 --> 00:11:18.240 It's forcibly to believe it. 147 00:11:18.299 --> 00:11:19.259 No, exactly. 148 00:11:19.320 --> 00:11:23.700 But isn't that isn't that something always freaky about those very primitive early television. 149 00:11:23.820 --> 00:11:25.919 Whatever it is, whether it's a real person or a puppet. 150 00:11:25.980 --> 00:11:27.779 It just makes it so demonic and strange looking. 151 00:11:27.840 --> 00:11:42.779 It apparently didn't catch fire the 1st time it was used and it was used in sort of public demonstrations of television, but it did eventually get sort of horribly singed. incineration by Wikipedia, whether it was human hair or not. 152 00:11:42.899 --> 00:11:45.419 Which. 153 00:11:45.960 --> 00:12:02.100 But the other thing that I thought worked really well was just them working out exactly what the giggle was and having Donna work it out because she's clever, having Mel sing some arpeggios for us after all these years, she's never sung on the show. 154 00:12:02.159 --> 00:12:04.320 Using that wonderful musical theatre training. 155 00:12:04.379 --> 00:12:05.220 Yes. 156 00:12:05.340 --> 00:12:06.659 That's right. 157 00:12:07.559 --> 00:12:11.159 Yeah, so I thought all of that was really just terrifically fun. 158 00:12:11.220 --> 00:12:15.840 Isn't it wonderful to have Neil Patrick Harris do that whole Spice Schools routine? 159 00:12:15.899 --> 00:12:24.059 you know, using part as he said, he uses every single skill that he has in the one piece of television drama and he just dances that so absolutely beautifully. 160 00:12:24.120 --> 00:12:32.340 And and it's shot like a video clip because you, you know, you'll cut to another shot and he'll be in that shot as well. suddenly be there. 161 00:12:32.399 --> 00:12:33.299 Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. 162 00:12:33.360 --> 00:12:34.139 There's no logic. 163 00:12:34.200 --> 00:12:35.580 There's no logic to how people are moving about. 164 00:12:35.639 --> 00:12:38.879 He said, he said, he said to the production team. 165 00:12:38.940 --> 00:12:40.860 So you got me doing a lot. 166 00:12:40.919 --> 00:12:48.600 I mean, I can do this and I can do that and, you know, like, I can do puppets, I can juggle, like, um, I think I can dance. 167 00:12:48.659 --> 00:12:52.259 I mean, I can dance, but I've not had any lessons. 168 00:12:53.279 --> 00:12:57.059 Well, he said, That's why we employed you, too. 169 00:12:58.919 --> 00:13:02.100 I particularly love about that that dance thing. 170 00:13:02.220 --> 00:13:08.580 You know, you know that Bonnie did all those spins herself and then they just had to speed it up a bit. 171 00:13:09.059 --> 00:13:20.759 And on 2nd viewing, on 2nd viewing, during those spins, I can just hear a little bit of a scream in the key of F. Just... 172 00:13:20.820 --> 00:13:26.700 It didn't take phantom that long to actually put that scream over the top and post it to Twitter. 173 00:13:26.759 --> 00:13:27.600 Marvel. 174 00:13:27.600 --> 00:13:29.460 Of course. absolutely marvellous. 175 00:13:29.759 --> 00:13:34.019 We're clearly back in 2023 now. 176 00:13:34.080 --> 00:13:39.240 And it's not very long before the toy maker actually kills the doctor. 177 00:13:39.299 --> 00:13:47.279 And I have to say that that did take me by surprise because we're about 20 minutes from the end of the episode then. 178 00:13:47.340 --> 00:13:49.740 Were people expecting that or not? 179 00:13:49.799 --> 00:13:55.559 I wasn't, although I didn't have the little timer thing on the screen, so I didn't know how far into it I was. 180 00:13:55.620 --> 00:14:09.299 I was actually a bit surprised that it happened sort of so suddenly because it did feel a bit, um, I don't feel like I've had a climax quite the climax yet from that point of view, but then it kind of, of course, the climax is then yet to come. 181 00:14:09.360 --> 00:14:10.740 Yeah, yeah, yeah. 182 00:14:10.799 --> 00:14:12.659 I was expecting it. 183 00:14:12.720 --> 00:14:27.000 That's because I had a brain fart moment. on Sunday morning and clicked on Facebook before watching the episode and saw the scene of them splitting in half and looking at each other. 184 00:14:27.059 --> 00:14:28.740 It's like, damn you. 185 00:14:28.799 --> 00:14:29.340 Damn it. 186 00:14:29.399 --> 00:14:30.720 I mean I knew it was coming. 187 00:14:30.779 --> 00:14:31.620 I'd heard. 188 00:14:31.740 --> 00:14:33.899 They're so inconsiderate and annoying. 189 00:14:34.440 --> 00:14:42.419 I heard the split regeneration rumour, so I kind of knew it was coming. and then I saw it, I was like, 0 my, I mean, like, I knew it was coming. 190 00:14:42.480 --> 00:14:47.279 But also it was just so frustrating, but that didn't spoil the scene. 191 00:14:47.340 --> 00:14:58.200 Now the thing is, I'd heard about the split regeneration thing, but I hadn't heard about it actually sort of emerging from the same body, what have you? 192 00:14:58.259 --> 00:15:04.379 So that moment did still take me by surprise and it was only when he's like, could you? 193 00:15:05.039 --> 00:15:14.279 Oh, that I thought, oh, my god, like they're literally going to like pull them apart like a one of those American cheese string things. 194 00:15:14.759 --> 00:15:16.379 Yeah, yeah. 195 00:15:16.440 --> 00:15:17.940 So I got a little bit. 196 00:15:18.000 --> 00:15:25.019 I got a little bit of surprise from that, thankfully, but, you know, Russell had also said a few months ago, you don't have to wait for Christmas to see Chutie. 197 00:15:25.080 --> 00:15:31.379 Shooty will be in the specials and I kind of went, just my immediate thought was, oh, this is interesting. 198 00:15:31.440 --> 00:15:43.019 We're kind of doing the reverse of the telly movie where one doctor has 2 thirds of the beginning and then the next doctor picks up straight away and yeah, it wasn't quite like that. 199 00:15:43.440 --> 00:15:49.259 I would have preferred it if it had been more like that because I think it would have been better if it had happened earlier. 200 00:15:49.320 --> 00:15:53.639 Um, and can I can I venture my little critique of this now? 201 00:15:53.639 --> 00:15:55.740 Or is this not the right time? 202 00:15:55.799 --> 00:15:56.639 No, no, no. 203 00:15:56.639 --> 00:16:00.179 I don't have a problem with the bi-generation stuff or bi-regeneration, whatever it is, fine. 204 00:16:00.240 --> 00:16:00.899 It's a thing. 205 00:16:00.899 --> 00:16:03.600 And it's, I think it's interesting to have both actors. 206 00:16:03.600 --> 00:16:05.460 And it's a way of doing sort of a mini multi-dog story. 207 00:16:05.580 --> 00:16:19.559 I wondered whether, in hindsight, it was unfortunate, because usually what happens is that the previous doctor explodes in a, in whatever bunch of light, and then suddenly he or she is the next doctor. 208 00:16:19.620 --> 00:16:26.399 And I've always instantly accepted that person is the doctor, even though I already knew who it was going to be. 209 00:16:26.460 --> 00:16:27.720 But you instantly accept it. 210 00:16:27.779 --> 00:16:31.379 The problem with doing it this way is that Tenant is still there. 211 00:16:31.440 --> 00:16:38.700 And so I think that it cheats shooty of that moment of those early moments where he owns the role. 212 00:16:38.820 --> 00:17:04.140 So I think if you're going to do this, maybe another way of doing it, is for a start, have it a little bit earlier in the plot, maybe during the 1st game that, that, um, you know, when, when it's won all, that the doctor has with the toy maker, and, and the tenant doctor is then knocked unconscious by the bi-generation process, so that then you have shoot his moments in the sun for 10 minutes, however long it is, and then tenant comes to, and they can have the multi-doctor bit for the rest of the episode. 213 00:17:04.200 --> 00:17:08.400 I just worry that Chooty's been cheated of that full strength to boo. 214 00:17:08.460 --> 00:17:08.819 That all. 215 00:17:08.880 --> 00:17:19.440 Except that he absolutely outdoes Tenant immediately right from the get go and makes himself his doctor much, much more exciting than Tenant's doctor. 216 00:17:19.500 --> 00:17:22.319 Yeah, no, no, I'll pay that, yeah. 217 00:17:22.380 --> 00:17:29.099 Yeah, I mean, it's a little bit like, you know, bringing Tom Baker into a pertwee story for for Robot. 218 00:17:29.160 --> 00:17:33.839 And, you know, he's got pert to his show around him, but he's just much better than everyone else in it. 219 00:17:33.900 --> 00:17:35.460 And so we're fine. 220 00:17:35.519 --> 00:17:37.500 We're going to be okay with this new doctor. 221 00:17:37.559 --> 00:17:51.539 And I think I think that Shooty here isn't better than everyone else around him, but because Tennant chooses graciously, I think, to downplay it and allow Shooty to have the floor. 222 00:17:51.599 --> 00:18:00.000 And also because that doctor's character is so kind of beleaguered and tired and sort of miserable. 223 00:18:00.059 --> 00:18:08.700 You know, he told us at the end of wild blue yonder that he would get better, but it would take a 1000000 years before he felt any better. 224 00:18:08.759 --> 00:18:14.880 And, you know, you have Donna stopping him saying, you're staggering from place to place now. 225 00:18:14.940 --> 00:18:21.000 And so he's a much less charismatic character because he's so beleaguered, I think. 226 00:18:21.059 --> 00:18:26.579 And then when Judy comes along and isn't any of those things, it's such a relief. 227 00:18:26.640 --> 00:18:27.599 It's so wonderful. 228 00:18:27.660 --> 00:18:32.400 And so instantly Tennant takes the place of the past doctor. 229 00:18:32.460 --> 00:18:37.920 He's suddenly John Pertey and the 5 doctors instead of being the lead of this episode. 230 00:18:37.980 --> 00:18:40.259 And I thought that that was really well done. 231 00:18:40.319 --> 00:18:43.079 I think that's a fair enough view to a taken from it. 232 00:18:43.140 --> 00:18:53.279 I just still felt, even though Shooty's much more dynamic from the get go, and tenant's kind of more retiring for one of a better description, it's because tenant is already there, tenant is established, that's what I'm talking about. 233 00:18:53.339 --> 00:18:58.559 Like it feels it feels too much like this character rather than the next doctor. 234 00:18:58.619 --> 00:19:00.180 It was just my takeaway from it. 235 00:19:00.240 --> 00:19:01.920 See, I also have this thing. 236 00:19:01.980 --> 00:19:12.299 You know, in a Christmas carol where um, Catherine Sardic hugs young Catherine Sardic. like he goes to hit him. 237 00:19:12.359 --> 00:19:37.859 He goes to hit his younger self, and sees the younger self flinch, and then hugs him, and there's that moment, and having Shooty be able to kind of help tenant through, you know, tenant's the man who regrets, and he's talking about the people who've died, that hilarious comedy moment where Kate says, where are all the staff on the, on the big laser gun? 238 00:19:37.859 --> 00:19:41.819 And, And Neil Patrick Harris says, I think they're still falling. 239 00:19:41.819 --> 00:19:45.000 And then you hear the sound of the... 240 00:19:45.000 --> 00:19:45.839 That's dark. 241 00:19:47.160 --> 00:19:48.900 That's very good. 242 00:19:48.960 --> 00:19:53.579 And so you have shooty comforting him and making it okay for him, I think. 243 00:19:53.640 --> 00:19:58.140 And all of that where Shooty comes not just to save the day, but to save the doctor. 244 00:19:58.200 --> 00:19:59.519 I think that's pretty good. 245 00:20:00.359 --> 00:20:18.420 My misgivings are similar to yours, Simon, for the 1st time I watched it through, because all the way through Jody's tenure, there's all these crossovers in comics, video games, and Time Lord Victorious, where Tenant is put in front of Jody. 246 00:20:18.480 --> 00:20:21.180 And then, of course, she turns into him. 247 00:20:21.240 --> 00:20:29.220 And I'm like, really starting off, Shooty Gatwaz era with a spare David Tennant over in the corner that we can wheel out. 248 00:20:29.279 --> 00:20:41.460 It was actually the 2nd go around where it becomes very clear that, no, the intention is, the 14th doctor can retire and take it easy because the 15th doctor carries on the work. 249 00:20:41.700 --> 00:20:59.160 But, but it's actually more nuanced than that, is that the 14th doctor, all of the memories that he will have before he eventually regenerates, are with the 15th doctor. 250 00:21:00.299 --> 00:21:04.200 I'm okay because you healed yourself. 251 00:21:04.259 --> 00:21:09.359 Like, he remembers everything to that doctor. 252 00:21:09.420 --> 00:21:19.619 That doctor is retiring with his adopted family and going through the process of healing from the last, what is it, 4.5000000 years? 253 00:21:19.740 --> 00:21:30.299 I didn't notice that the 1st time, the 2nd time around, it's very clear that he's actually saying, you know, you did the healing and that's why I'm okay. 254 00:21:30.359 --> 00:21:38.099 And the production team have gone on record basically saying that bi-generation did not just happen to the 14th doctor. 255 00:21:38.160 --> 00:21:42.720 It happened to every incarnation of the doctor to the very beginning of the show. 256 00:21:42.779 --> 00:21:50.640 So there is now a split reality where William Hartnell goes on at the end of 10th planet. 257 00:21:50.700 --> 00:21:52.740 Patrick Towson on earth. 258 00:21:52.799 --> 00:21:57.539 Like, it's, it's created a, what Russell referred to as the doctor verse. 259 00:21:57.599 --> 00:21:59.160 I actually don't care. 260 00:21:59.220 --> 00:22:00.839 Like, I mean, it was very nice. 261 00:22:00.900 --> 00:22:05.460 And if they want to do, you know, big finish audios on that basis, fabulous. 262 00:22:05.519 --> 00:22:06.960 You know, that's the extended universe. 263 00:22:07.019 --> 00:22:17.940 But sometimes I wish people wouldn't put too much thought into these things because what matches is who they're going to cast to be the doctor in each of the seasons as we move forward and who they do or don't invite to come back. 264 00:22:18.000 --> 00:22:27.299 I think the show works best probably if Tennant doesn't come back again, even though we get it hinted at that with his family, he's sneaking off. 265 00:22:27.299 --> 00:22:32.279 I mean, we've already got one in the parallel universe, for God's sake. 266 00:22:32.339 --> 00:22:36.119 Yeah, I know, we're just leaving copies of tenants all over the place all through time. 267 00:22:36.180 --> 00:22:37.559 Oh well. 268 00:22:38.940 --> 00:22:50.759 But I like that point, James, which I picked up as well, which is, and it's said with the most moffety line imaginable. you know, we're time lords, we don't do rehab in the right order. 269 00:22:50.819 --> 00:23:08.039 And so shooty goes off, enjoying the new outlook on the show that was one because Tenant stays behind and has an adopted family and Mad Auntie Mel and all of that, which. 270 00:23:08.880 --> 00:23:18.359 Oh, look, I'm just looking forward to the big finish box set with the 14th doctor and Mad Auntie Mel in that 20s New York. 271 00:23:18.480 --> 00:23:20.220 Yes. absolutely. 272 00:23:20.279 --> 00:23:20.940 So good. 273 00:23:20.940 --> 00:23:22.559 So good. 274 00:23:22.619 --> 00:23:24.119 Get up and take my money. 275 00:23:25.920 --> 00:23:42.480 But I just wanted to say that the incredible thing was was shooty's performance and how immediately sort of sexy he makes that moment where they're splitting off and they're kind of sharing a body and they're facing one another. 276 00:23:42.539 --> 00:23:48.779 You know, he's smiling super broadly and all of that and just kind of how relaxed. 277 00:23:48.839 --> 00:23:55.380 You know, he's in his underpants for that entire 15 minutes because he gets half a turn. 278 00:23:56.099 --> 00:23:57.720 The rest of the show. 279 00:23:57.779 --> 00:24:00.119 So so he gets the shoes. 280 00:24:00.180 --> 00:24:02.880 I mean, if you got it flaunted, I say. 281 00:24:03.539 --> 00:24:04.799 He's got great spites. 282 00:24:04.859 --> 00:24:06.839 He's got extraordinary thighs. 283 00:24:08.279 --> 00:24:10.440 He does a lot of squats. 284 00:24:10.500 --> 00:24:11.940 Evidently. 285 00:24:12.000 --> 00:24:23.519 It's like, I mean, he's so relaxed and so sexy, and I think the thing for me that this has done is something that I think Chibnal tried to do, but backtracked on because he couldn't make it work. 286 00:24:23.640 --> 00:24:36.000 But ever since Doctor Who came back in 2005, the doctor's been a tragic hero in some sense, and so it's been the time war, then we fix the time war, and then it's, am I a good man? 287 00:24:36.059 --> 00:24:46.920 And I remember when Capoldi left the stage and and Jody Whittaker turned up and she looked at herself in the mirror and said, brilliant. 288 00:24:46.980 --> 00:24:53.220 You know, I don't hate myself. this is the best thing ever And I thought, this is the era of man pain over. 289 00:24:53.279 --> 00:24:59.160 And of course, it wasn't because Chibnell destroyed Gallifrey again, just to put Jody into a Marty mood for series 12. 290 00:24:59.460 --> 00:25:15.720 But I think that very much, Russell, now is going to do a version of Doctor Who, where the doctor isn't constantly saddled with this sort of terrible angst and where we get to see him and Ruby having fun. 291 00:25:15.779 --> 00:25:17.400 I'm looking forward to that. 292 00:25:17.460 --> 00:25:18.839 I will pay that. 293 00:25:18.900 --> 00:25:23.039 I think that's great. if that's where we're going because I am really sick of the angst. 294 00:25:23.400 --> 00:25:31.380 My worry is, of course, they'll do that for 3 episodes and then there'll be a new angst thing to introduce, you know, because sometimes these people can't help themselves. 295 00:25:32.039 --> 00:25:38.220 He does touch on this thing in all 3 of the of these specials. 296 00:25:38.279 --> 00:25:39.119 Do you know what I mean? 297 00:25:39.180 --> 00:25:45.119 All 3 of the specials are working towards the moment where the doctor decides to stay behind with Donna and heal. 298 00:25:45.180 --> 00:25:51.900 And I think that absolutely that this is indicative of where Russell wants to take the show. 299 00:25:51.960 --> 00:25:52.980 Yeah. 300 00:25:53.099 --> 00:26:01.259 And, you know, that's juxtaposed with Donna, you know, we find out she's given away all her money, uh, et cetera, et cetera. 301 00:26:01.319 --> 00:26:04.980 But she keeps reiterating how happy she is. 302 00:26:05.039 --> 00:26:07.319 She's got a caring husband. 303 00:26:07.380 --> 00:26:08.460 She's got a beautiful daughter. 304 00:26:08.519 --> 00:26:12.420 She's got a better relationship with her, mom, her granddad's being looked after. 305 00:26:12.539 --> 00:26:18.539 Despite the problems of real life, which she alludes to with the doctor saying, I'll go mad. 306 00:26:18.539 --> 00:26:24.660 And she's like, yeah, it does drive you mad, but you've got this amazing life while it drives you mad. 307 00:26:24.720 --> 00:26:27.000 It's kind of a closure. 308 00:26:27.059 --> 00:26:34.799 I didn't know I needed for Donna because, you know, when we see Donna previously, it's like she's got a lottery win and she's marrying Sean and everything's fine. 309 00:26:34.859 --> 00:26:39.599 It's like, yeah, except she's lost this thing and then we, you know, we come back and she's given away all the money. 310 00:26:39.720 --> 00:26:48.420 Um, It's then this message that she still has the life she chose, making her very, very happy. 311 00:26:48.960 --> 00:27:01.079 There's that brilliant moment where Kate offers her a job for 60 K a year and Donna just says 100 K and 5 weeks off and she gets it and she just, oh, my good. 312 00:27:01.140 --> 00:27:02.099 Yeah. 313 00:27:02.339 --> 00:27:09.059 Whereas I think Kate's going, the salary is 100, but I'll tell her 60 and she won't take. 314 00:27:09.420 --> 00:27:20.700 For that brilliant moment as well in that scene with Donna and Mel working together on the computers, you know, fastest type of in choosing. 315 00:27:20.819 --> 00:27:22.319 But she could also code. 316 00:27:23.940 --> 00:27:26.400 That's some secretarial, Collie. 317 00:27:26.640 --> 00:27:31.680 Well, remember, she does subconsciously tap the knowledge of the doctor. 318 00:27:31.740 --> 00:27:32.099 That is true. 319 00:27:32.220 --> 00:27:33.000 Yes, of course. 320 00:27:33.059 --> 00:27:34.859 Oh, yeah. 321 00:27:34.920 --> 00:27:39.779 Yeah, remember, way back in Journey's End, she can realign the Dalek path web quicker than anyone. 322 00:27:39.839 --> 00:27:40.740 Yeah. 323 00:27:40.799 --> 00:27:43.500 I'd just delete that period of the show from my memory. 324 00:27:43.559 --> 00:27:44.460 Wow. 325 00:27:46.079 --> 00:27:48.240 That's the one you delete. 326 00:27:50.039 --> 00:27:51.960 Yeah, that's right. 327 00:27:52.019 --> 00:27:53.400 Season 20 is right there. 328 00:27:53.460 --> 00:27:54.599 All right. 329 00:27:54.660 --> 00:27:57.119 Well, in that case, I'm just going to plug a few things. 330 00:27:57.180 --> 00:28:01.680 We have our FDE series 9 coverage, which finished on Sunday. 331 00:28:01.799 --> 00:28:03.299 So you can catch up with that. 332 00:28:03.359 --> 00:28:05.759 It was our series 9 retrospective. 333 00:28:05.880 --> 00:28:12.299 And of course, on Christmas Day, we will be releasing the Christmas special, the Husbands of River Song. 334 00:28:12.359 --> 00:28:19.079 Startling Barbara Bain continues to exist, and there's every chance we'll record an episode at the end of this month. 335 00:28:19.079 --> 00:28:33.779 And of course, maximum power is continuing to release series C episodes, and untitled Star Trek project has ended a triumphant year with a commentary on Star Trek for the Voyage Home. 336 00:28:33.839 --> 00:28:47.039 And of course, we will be back here at the 2nd great and Bountiful Human Empire sometime very soon after Christmas and the Christmas special, the church on Ruby Road. 337 00:28:47.099 --> 00:28:56.160 All that remains is for me to say, until next time, you probably need to stop buying bone broth and synthetic androgen supplements from Trinity Wells. 338 00:28:56.279 --> 00:28:58.500 Thank you very much for listening and good night. 339 00:28:58.559 --> 00:29:00.299 Good night. 340 00:29:00.359 --> 00:29:01.740 See you soon. 341 00:29:01.799 --> 00:29:02.700 Bye bye. 342 00:29:03.299 --> 00:29:05.519 Trinity Wells. 343 00:29:05.579 --> 00:29:06.960 She's back. 344 00:29:06.960 --> 00:29:07.799 That's amazing.