A new Doctor Who flashcast by the people who brought you Flight Through Entirety.

The Reality War

Season 2, Episode 8. First broadcast on Sunday 1 June 2025.

Episode 20 · Monday 2 June 2025.

And that’s exactly the word. This has been an absolute joy.

It’s time to say goodbye to another Doctor, and to another era, with no real idea of what’s coming next. Just like life, really.

Here’s the link to the BBC press release about this episode.

Recorded on Monday 2 June 2025 · Download (47.6 MB)
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Transcript

 Hello, dear listen, and welcome back to the 2nd Great and Bountiful Human Empire, the only Doctor Who flash cast that didn't vote for the leopards eating people's faces party. I'm Nathan. I'm Adam. I'm Brendan. I'm James. I'm Peter. I'm Simon and I'm Todd. So we are here to talk about the final episode of this series, and indeed this era of Doctor Who, the reality war by Russell T. Davies and I am going to do a quick whip round the table for 1st impression. Because that's what we do here. So let's start with, I don't know, Todd. I really, really enjoyed the 1st half and I, and then the 2nd half I quite liked, but I think it's got a few problems. I think that sounds fair What about you, Brendan? I enjoyed even more of it than Todd in the in the highly enjoyed sector. I would say I highly enjoyed the 1st 62 minutes. Very precise. Well, there's a pronounced difference in my feelings after that point. We will definitely get to that, I think. Adam. I, it's bonkers. Like, I enjoyed how ludicrous it was. I did get to what felt like the end of the episode and it was about 45 minutes and went, oh, I'll just pop off and make a cup of tea before I record my podcast. And when I pressed pause, I'm like, oh, there's 20 more minutes and they were 20 glorious minutes of surprises and fun. So I was like, oh, okay. This is good. Extra doctor. What about you, Peter? I was brutally disappointed by this episode, but there were things which I enjoyed in it, particularly around Archie Punjabi, as Darani, who I just think was fantastic in every scene, even when she didn't have much. And I continue to really love Verada as the companion. Even when she isn't given very much. She just absolutely shines on screen. And so any scene that had either of them or preferably both of them, I was on board with. brilliant And Simon. Well, I wasn't bitterly disappointed because to be honest, I wasn't expecting to think it was brilliant. I mean, I'm on record and not be a particular fan of RDD and a particular fan of his finales either. And I, let's just say this very much lived down to my expectations I'm afraid. I mean, there's much to fun in it. There's things to enjoy in it. You know, I love some of the cast is what PT was saying, but I do think that this one in particular, a big hot mess. I'm really sorry to say. And James. Threesomes, why, Simon, what wasn't the hugest fan of this episode are the reasons that I love it. Because it is a bit. It's not perfect. But I enjoyed every minute of it. He also loved me, James because I'm a big hot mess. I have to say that like the hot mess thing, it is a hot mess and I think it's a hot mess for kind of unavoidable production reasons. But in fact, the 1st 35 minutes until we kind of get rid of Omega all seems to me to be actually really rather straightforward. And so let's talk about those first. We're halfway through the episode and the big problem is solved. We get an out of the way in less than the time that a normal episode would last. Yeah. So let's talk about that. essentially, we get the gang back together. We get the Rani visiting, Mel and the Rani meet at last, and then obviously we all head off to the Bone Palace. So how do we feel that part of the episode worked? Let's say, Brendan. I was pretty satisfied with that part. I think that Yasmin Finney continues to be underutilised. But then again, what is a 16 year old's job at unit? You know? She... Yeah, yeah. Right. Not quite. Better copying. She holds a mean clipboard, I think. If they thought about more, she could have predicted some weather. But, but, you know, they do they do make sure that they acknowledge the fact that her character is trans because that's why she wasn't there because Conrad's just like, you're not a real person, you know, and it makes the point we made about Conrad last week about how Conrad marginalises people who don't fit into his very narrow viewpoint. It restates the premise of last week without it having to be an info dump, which I really appreciate. And of course, what was the 1st story I saw on premiere? It was Time and the Rani. So, look, there wasn't enough melon Rani scenes together, but at least there was a melon Rani scene and brilliantly acted it was too. I'm disappointed that there wasn't a scene of the Rani pretending. Belinda. Like he's going, no, doctor, I'm totally your companion, Belinda would have loved if they'd flipped the script and maybe had Mel dressing up as the Rani to fill Mrs. Blood. I was going to say that, Peter. I was hoping that. By the way, I had the leather. I had an eerie about why when Mel removes her helmet, she suddenly has a full head of curly hair because she's got really lank hair when she gets on the bike. It's because of Anita holding the door open or the regular time coming through. It was her actual hair from 1988. I think... I'm not Borg 9 being alive. I'm really sorry, but I'm not even convinced her hair from 1988 was actually her hair from 1988. I will give some praise to Bonnie because while I absolutely adore her in her original iteration as Mel and also in her comebacks in the 21st century. The fact that she managed to channel so perfectly, time in the Rani mill, when she was calling the Rani, so utterly evil, or whatever it was you were saying. I absolutely abhorred. Yes. Yes. So good. Oh, dear. I just love Anita coming back in the use of this. A time hotel to get the gang back together and just all of those sequences and all that you said, like the showdowns with the Rani Mrs. Flood, and everybody meeting together. I just really enjoyed it and, you know, the whole unit stuff against the the bone monsters. I was just really engrossed by all of that. I just thought it was so much fun and we were getting answers to things and I was getting, I was very satisfied. Look, I, I, I, this comes back to the hot mess thing. I mean, one of the things that I have a problem with most of the RTD finales and they seem to get exacerbated as time has gone past is that they basically, and this one in particular is guilty of it is that it's a whole lot of shouting exposition with a whole lot of CGI and relatively meaningless action sort of in between. So for me, it's just a whole lot of sort of sound and fury signifying nothing, I'm afraid. It's sort of, it's just stuff happening without me actually feeling engaged with the stuff that's happening. If I can put it in those terms. Oh, you've got to watch The Wheel of Time. That's every episode. I think that this was a thing that we needed to do in the final episode of this era, because this era different from the other RTD era, because the doctor ends up in meshed in the family and friend groups of his companion in the RTD one era. Here he has his own one. And in fact, by becoming his companion, you become part of that group. And we see that with Ruby. We see it with a knee to here. We see it with Mel. We see it with Kate, and the beautiful Colonel Ibrahim, and not to mention the links. And I love that. Like, I love that right from the giggle. It was one of the things that I really liked about the giggle was that new unit setup. And here, you know, just getting them all back together and it's like, we're now together, we can solve this problem together. And so it's not a thing that just the doctor does. The doctor doesn't go off on his own to solve the problem. Ruby goes off. The doctor goes off, and everyone else gets to do weird things with the thing and fire beams at the bone monsters. And I have to say that I think spectacle is fun and good. It's television because it's vision and I think that was sort of particularly memorable and something that you would never see anywhere else. I think, giant boned dinosaurs attacking a skyscraper. They need to just put some skin on them and then import them back to 1974. Can you imagine the brigadier with the big wheel? No, I can't, but I can imagine Sergeant Fenton. Love a big wheel. Having recently seen Seeds of Death, I thought she was controlling the temperature. It'll be 55 degrees centigrade again in no time at all. Five degrees to port, Mr. Benton. rapid. All right, so then we obviously go off and do the thing. And so let's talk about the Rani and Omika. It won't take very long. No, mate. moment. Probably less time than it took for him to swallow her. He doesn't have a throat. That's an improvement. Nothing. That hand comes out. It does have skin on it. So he's not entirely sort of feet a skeleton. And I do kind of like the fact that he's like a baby under skeleton because he's a time thing. you know, it's both ends of the human lifespan together at last. But for me, the Rani always had this kind of supremacist thing going. She's a racist, right? Lucertians don't matter to her. She has opinions about Lucertians, but she's not interested in them and she can kill them all and she doesn't mind too much about that. And here it becomes really explicit. She's she has the chance to go for a new modern woke galafray with you know, poppy and and the doctor and stuff. But she goes, no, I'm going back to the old, you know, as old as possible. And this is very much her comeuppance that that version of Gallifre wants to eat her alive. Are we sure there just wasn't a joke on Russell's behalf where the Rani's experiment at the president's cat. And so in turn, omega et the rani. Oh, that's great. It does lead to the best line in the entire episode. Oh, that's it for the 2 runnies. That from me. It's a long game for a really old punchline. Showing his age there, I think, in writing. That played better among this group, I think, possibly than the general audience. And we are, after all, the core demographic of this show. Maybe, maybe we are. Ageing homes, maybe. more demographic. Todd, were you expecting Ian Collier to walk through that portal into the Rani's laboratory? I didn't know. I was in 2 minds. I thought, we're either going to go to take the way, you know you've become a god, so you're going to be a big creature, and we're going to dispose of you quite quickly, which of course is what we did, and we wrapped all that up quite succinctly. Or we're going to go like the 3 doctors costume and that would then lead to another 25 minutes of having to defeat a humanoid villain and then it's still having the Rani there. And so obviously, you know, decisions were made and that's the way and that's the way we went, you know? And I'm okay with it. It's a little known fact that, that, um, Baby Feet is actually based on P.J. Jefferson. Okay. It all sort of feels like, you know, we've decided we're going to do this and then, oh, no, no, we're not going to decide to do this going to decide to do something else. It's almost as if Rascal was writing, um, you know, in an airport lounge um, on his laptop and a closed board had saved properly and then kept writing where he thought he was up to when he got on the plane and was missing the kind of, the, the, the, the, where something actually meaningful happens. I don't know might take her. I thought it was unfortunate. I thought that there was a lot of exposition in that scene beforehand to just... Just to set up a scene where the monster comes and eats the Rani which I didn't think needed a great deal of supporting explanation to be honest. But there we are. I actually happen. Oh, you know what I... don't know. You know what I think happened is that Russell T. Davis has looked at the fury online about the timeless child, the whole retconning galafray thing and gone. Oh, what do they hate more than anything? reworking the time lord. Let's have a chat about how they're sterile. That'll get Ian Levine in a twist. Is something about looms? Do you know what my theory is about that is that that doesn't actually work in any context outside an abandoned series 3. And I think that there are little bits and pieces here and earlier in the season that are kind of leading up to something that's going to happen in series three. I think it's possible that Poppy, uh, the search for Poppy is part of series three. And I think the fact that the doctor says that he hasn't had Susan yet at some point. But now he's sterile. How does Susan fit in? And of course, she's completely absent. She disappears from this episode. And I think they're both things that were casualties of just not getting a series 3. And it's the sort of thing that we saw at the end of series 2. of you know, Russell's 1st era where all of this staff, all of the kind of other shoe that was going to drop, never happens because Billy decides that she's going to leave. And Anita also talks about the boss, you know? And so it does lead me to think that there are quite a few threads here in the 2nd half of the episode that, you know, we don't see Susan, as you've mentioned, and what is it with Poppy, there's all these threads that are left unanswered. I wouldn't be surprised if the search for Hoppy rather than being an entire series three, I wouldn't be surprised if that was going to be the Christmas special, for instance. That's possible too. That feels like it could be right, but really, who knows? Because I'm not entirely, I hate to say it. I hate to bring this kind of thing up. But I'm not entirely sure Russell has quite thought that far ahead. I think he just likes to plant things that he might pick up later and do something with. And that's absolutely a thing that lots of shows do, I think, to a good effect. I mean, Claire Bloom. we know who she is yet? Doctor's mother. come on. Yes, sterile. This is the thing, right? It's so confusing But there's a throwaway line in the middle of that dialogue dump where they've talked about how there can't be any more time lords and the neogenetic explosions sterilise the 2 of them. So they're not born sterile is the implication. All the other time lords are dead, but they survived and it made them sterile, even though he was the template for all of the time lords. So surely if the genetic bomb rolled out, surely it shouldn't affect the doctor because he was a precursor to them, I don't know. Didn't kill him. Maybe Susan's the child of Tikki Tikki Tata. Could be. Uh, Brandon? I actually had to go away and look up the genetic explosion because, you know, I've only watched the timeless children once. Good food. Yeah, yeah. The thing, the whole thing with Omega and the Rani that I, that kind of, like was my record scratch moment was. And I've gone and found the quote because someone was mean to me about it on Blue Sky. Um, This is the doctor talking about Omega. Some called him the original sin of the time lords. cast out from Gallifrey. No, he wasn't. Legend says they bound him. No, it doesn't, and banished him because he is insane. He wasn't when he got lost. And it's just kind of this thing of, we've got Morbius and Razelon both of whom have been banished and were tyrants, but let's go with Omega for some reason. Oh, but I do think the reason is that because he's, in some sense the creator of the Time Lords, and because she wants to recreate the Time Lords. That's why she goes for him. And I thought that it was kind of clear last week that that was where this was going to go. Yeah, he wasn't exiled and he wasn't mad before he... But the doctor just makes shit up. Also, because he, you know, she was gone. She had disappeared when there was the revelation that he was actually the progenitor of all of them. She doesn't know that he was the 1st the 1st regenerating person in this universe. I really have nothing to say about any of that. It's interesting, Brendan, that you talk about the timeless children because I think it's pretty clear that Chris Chipman gave himself a genetic explosion while writing that. I'm going to have to cut that. Did he need a wet ones? All over the bottom of the desk. Also, I will say that I'm I will say that I'm hearing whispers that maybe there was another version of the scene involving Jody which I'm sure that we'll talk about which may have involved Carol Anne Ford. So there are possibility threads. There's possibly threads which are left hanging there, which otherwise wouldn't have been. Right, right. The other big thing is that Mrs. Fudd has said, and the Rani, that his story ends in absolute terror. And I don't know if that actually happened, you know? So and so that's another thread that could have, you know, been going on. That's just her foreshadowing, surely, no. I'm going to intend in absolute terror. Yeah, it's like he's going to end in absolute terror because I'm behind everything. I'm a pantomime dame. She is awesome. I'm so glad she survives. And there's that great moment where she just goes, yoi came out of here, you know, and the doctor even just says, 0 yeah, thanks. That's right. I'm still bitterly disappointed, though, that she doesn't use the time ring in a genesis of the Daleks kind of way. sort of rolling around on the floor. Well, I'm really disappointed that we didn't get a mind battle scene between the doctor and the baby skeletonomia. on a black background. We're thankful for small mercies, James. Oh my god. You will face the dark side of my mind. And it's Peter Davidson in a sparkling cloak. There we go. Change your proof. Paycheque. And we get Peter Davidson is over the go. You know what else this episode was missing is just a jet of smoke that was a singularity. I love that so much. the best. Okay, also, who needs a bone dinosaur when you could have a massive gel guard terrorising an headquarter? Let's talk also about Ruby and Conrad, because they're confronting each other in the other room. I actually thought this was a surprisingly downbeat kind of ending to that particular thread. Well, it could have been killed off and I do think that I actually think it worked very well. I thought that was actually very effective that she granted him that wish to be happy and and it wasn't, you know, he was going to die. I thought it was one of the few well-placed moments of the episode actually. I'm going to agree with that as well. It was a moment that worked for me and I thought that, you know people who Conrad is based on, you know, the Andrew Tates of this world are fundamentally unhappy people and, you know, just given a chance to be happy and to be happy, that's all they really, you know, should get. I have a theory that the Conrad character is based on not only the Andrew Tates of the world, but the very vocal, not my doctor people, the people who've gone, Jodie Whitaker, not my doctor, you know, shitty guy one, not my doctor. It's, you know, needs to be an old white man. And what Russell is saying in this subtext is, I want you to be happy. Like this show is still going and you still get it and I want you to be happy. Like I'm not, I don't wish you malice as as a group. That sort of rings more true though, for the bloke. I can't even remember the character's name from the 1st episode the Robot Revolution. Whereas, oh, wasn't Conrad, wasn't Conrad Al? sorry, thank you. Wasn't Conrad more of a run of the-mill conspiracy theorist? Yeah, probably the right views, but not to the extent that what we've seen in this two-parter. I mean, look, it doesn't really matter that the characters repurposed for that. That's fine. But it's just my observation about that. Yeah, no, that's in the text. I'm talking like a subtext that Russell's got going on on a 2nd level that this is what he's saying, is like, I want Doctor Who fans to be happy because most of them aren't. But that scene also highlighted Millie Gibson and I think she's an unsung hero of this episode as well. I don't think there's any, it is quite subtext. I think it's seated in Lucky Day that he has an unhappy childhood. Like his mother beats him around the head and tells him off and like, you know, that's that's pretty terrible parenting. Something I love so much about that scene is something Russell actually has in dialogue in his 1st era, is how the doctor inadvertently turns all his companions into soldiers in his fight in the universe. And both Ruby and Belinda in this very much refuse to fight in the conventional sense and instead take on roles of protectors and benefactors. And I think that's incredibly strong, like, as you say, taught Millie is amazing in that scene. And at no point, does she feel anything less than strong and powerful, but in a totally different way to say Rose and Martha with their great big guns and their Osterhagen keys in the stolen earth? Dude, you know, it's really funny, isn't it? Because there is a great line where just before she beams out. She says, can I punch him in the face? And Kate says, yes, but she doesn't do that at all. Like, that's not what she does. And I think that's pretty great. That is pretty good. Isn't he pretty? That thing that she says about him. You can tip him sideways and serve olives in his dimples. I liked I liked that, and I did think it repaired something from Lucky Day where I thought Ruby was quite passive and a little bit of a victim throughout the episode, and this did actually give me some delayed gratification from that. Yeah, yeah. All right. So that brings us to 35 minutes into this 70 minute episode. So it's very clear, I think, that we knew, didn't we? I don't think it was generally known, but there was a reshoot. There was a version of this that doesn't end with a doctor's regeneration, and it's possible that it ends with the doctor and Belinda clubbing, having forgotten who Poppy is. It looks like the scenes that have been shot are a scene in unit headquarters, which I wasn't sure last night was in it, but it has to be in the reshoot, I think, at least partly, and there's a scene in the Tartar, several scenes in the Tartar, and then there's the scene in Belinda's backyard. And you said, I think, Todd, that you liked that this half of it rather less than the previous half. Is that right? Yeah, I guess so. I think because of the reshoots and that I think there was a storyline there that would have gone on and I just kind of felt like things were just tagged on and tagged on with, okay, she's going to have a child poppy now that looks like poppy from the space babies and and and was that really written for Ruby and so I just sort of, I just thought it was a bit of a mess. I mean, it was well acted, certainly, but I just, I don't know. I mean, they obviously knew that they were going for this because all of those scenes with the doctor and Belinda and Belinda saying she had to be back for her child and by 730 were all shot obviously, in all those episodes. I don't think they were. You think they were already mounted? They're all in the TARDIS and they're all using costumes that they have to hand. And so I think that's a reshoot because I don't think the season ends that way at all. And I think, you know, the big problem they have is we have to do a regeneration without any action. So we can't have, you know, the doctor. It's a little bit like the problem at the beginning of time of the Rani part one. How do we get the doctor to regenerate? Who knows? We'll just fudge it. But here you've got to do a regeneration. You've got to do the sort of a generation that we do in the modern series where it is about summing up what the doctor's for and the doctor has to, you know, Jody dies because an alien with an X in its name shoots her with a random beam of some kind, which kind of sums up the era. But Russell kind of wants to make it about the doctor sacrificing himself for someone else, just like Terence, Dr. Dars. And Eccleston's doctor, frankly, but he has to do it just in dialogue. There's no peril, there's no nothing. We just have to talk about it. And I guess that's why I thought a little bit less satisfied. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah. I think there are there were 2 foreseeable. Yeah. I suggest ways around that. I mean, I'd have thought that the, the, the knowledge that they're going to get a 3rd season was always going to be in question. So isn't there an option where you create the end of the 2nd series, which ends on some kind of cliffhanger, where you're not sure whether the doctor survived it, and you don't necessarily need to have him standing there with his arms up with all the light pouring out of him. You just go, well, we don't know where the, no, but you don't know whether this doctor has survived or not. So if the show comes back next year, 5 years, 10 years, whenever it is, you can have a new actor and it's fine. And the other option, I'm sorry to say, which is a very valid option is just to have them walking off into the sunset and in a survival kind of way. Actually, that is actually a valid option, and I think that they've missed a thing by not doing that. I think option one is the wrong option. And I think it's the one that they entertained at the end of Trial of a Time Lord episode 14 in the original script where you've got the doctor in the Vailiard fighting for their life. And I just think that that's, like, to watch something for 14 episodes and that's your ending, you don't get anything. Yeah, I think that... I'm not saying about something exactly like that. There's a way of doing it where the whatever conflict, whatever story you have is resolved, but for whatever reason, we don't know what his fate is. There is a way of doing that. And I think, but the reason they squibbed on the time and the trouble version. paranoid that if it looked like the doctor was about to die. Well, that gives it to me, excuse to cancel the series. I don't think that's the kind of peril we have now. No, that's... Yeah. My personal belief is that he could not resist ending the show because it must have felt at that point that the show's not going forward anymore or it's going to be 4 or 5 years or whatever the decision is, but he couldn't resist ending the show that he started in 2005 with the same person that it opened with. Like the last face we see is the 1st face we see when he brings it back. Like it's, it was a, if his hubris, if. I think we'll come back to that because once we talk about it we've lost Brendan, I think. I do want to talk about Jody's appearance in the show. And I think I think that that's something that we need because the doctor can't explain what he's doing to anyone else who isn't a timelord. And because the thing is such a time lord crap fiend. Do you know what I mean? We're going to fire regeneration energy into the vortex and blah blah, blah. He needs to be able to explain that to someone who has a chance of understanding that, the flinks, maybe. But... So you get Jody in. And I think that scene is really good because I think Jody is a little bit more animated than she, you know, is it my favourite Jody Whittaker episode, possibly, but she's a little bit more animated. We get that thing about each doctor's reaction to the previous doctor and so you have Jody who's really closed down, who doesn't communicate with Yaz, doesn't communicate with her companions. You know, she's in a Marty mood for no reason, but doesn't tell anyone why. And then you get this incredibly emotionally open Doctor Who openly says I love you to just everyone who walks past, really, at this point. So, so I liked that scene and it was kind of nice. So I always think that there's a generosity in the way that Russell has treated the chimney era, which I really approve of. I like that scene too, and I actually thought that it was really nice that she came back to do that and shows her her spirit towards the show. So, yeah, it was really it was really heartwarming. I quite liked it too because I thought it recalled for me when Matt Smith is regenerating and he becomes young again and drinks the custard and something like that. And then the fact that you get the Matt Smith from the path talking to the Capaldi doctor in the next episode. I think it's nice and I actually think it's it gives her an opportunity to have another go as well. I really liked that about it. Yeah. What I loved about that scene was the drawing that line back and saying, you know, well, I'm like this because all of you were emotionally stuffed. And then and then I go, oh, I should say that to Yaz, and then him going, you never do. But she knows. It's, it's, it's, that was quite sweet. I, again, part of my crazy theory, uh, about the, the Billy Piper of it all is that the face that the doctor wears at the end is because finally the doctor is at a place that is on the other side of where they were at the end of the time war. This is the final repair and emotional growth and I can be this person who taught me how to be me again. way back when. That's because I'm sentimental. It's quite beautiful. Adam quite... I like that. Glad that we can bring all of those levels too, because I think most people would be sitting there saying what the frack is Billy Piper doing there? Yeah, the Jody scene, I wept because I have always said that I felt there was more that she was not able to bring during her own tenure. And I think the text message I sent out to a few people was, Trust Russell T. Davies to give Jodie Whittaker's director more opportunity at character in 4 seconds than Chris Gibble did in 4 years. And it's exactly that moment that James mentioned where the 15th doctor tells her you never do. And just the look on Jody's face. I'm just like, yes, you were always there. And just the show around you was not giving you that. And also a word on the grading in the show around her. I never realised she had 2 moles on her right cheek, but I can see them. That is no way to talk about Yaz. you That's what 4K does here Brandon. Yes, yeah. I think the power of nostalgia is very strong, and I would agree with Simon that actually I was pleased to see Jody back, and as to what Brendan said there, you know, this was one of the few Jody scenes that didn't make me weep, so I was glad. So let's talk about the ending. I think there is a moment where Russell fakes it out because you see Shooty, you know, enveloped in the regeneration energy. And then there's a moment where his face disappears and you can't see anything. There's no morphing from one person to another in it, which we sometimes see. Sometimes the person's just completely occluded by the light. But there's a moment there's a shot where there's no face there. And I was expecting because, you know, what I thought would probably happen, given that there's no casting news or anything like that, that Russell would just go to black. And I think Russell's right to think that that's a bad ending or like that's kind of boring. So what he does, what I think is happening is this is the same instinct that gave us Catherine Tate in a wedding dress in the TARDIS or the Titanic crashing through the wall. And I also think it's the same instinct that gave us the fake out regeneration at the end of the stolen earth. Oh yeah, the hand. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. But I gather that it's not universally popular. My friend Matthew. said that he heard his wife give the most protracted WTF that he had ever heard from anyone in any context. It's interesting. It just says introducing Billy Piper, and not Billy Piper is the doctor. Without character. Is that a get out clause, you know? Can they go one way or the other? I don't know. Well, we only see the top of her head. Maybe she's by generating out of the back in today's 10 as well. Shitty guy was nicked out the back to go and find road. I can only congratulate Russell on his on his restraint for not having Billy say, what? What? Yes. What? No, he left that to us, I think. new teeth. That'd be a bit on the nose, wouldn't it? Brandon. So I'm going to give Nathan a public apology because he got a big spray via text from me yesterday. I've calmed down a bit now. Look, I am always happy to see Billy Piper. I love Billy Piper as an actor. She, um, she was the singer of my 1st CD single because we want to but I built my own money. It's adorable. I'm a slips. I'm as Aber. Mamma Mia. Like the 1st one. But after the initial, oh, yay, Billy's there wore off. I did I did get quite cross. And part of the reason I got quite cross was actually the same reaction I had as the at the end of Power of the Doctor, which was okay, we have had a doctor, actor cast who has sort of broken a ceiling and broken a rule and proven that this part can be more diversely cast than what we have. And now we're going back to an actor we've featured before. And it just, it just, part of it felt a little insulting to shooty. But at the same time, as a fan, it's like, okay, but do I have any actual objection to Billy Piper playing the doctor? I was like, no, of course not. She's a brilliant actress. And it's like, you can't say we can never have a white actor again and you can't say we can never have a man again, and you can't say we can never have a woman again. So... I kind of realised where a lot of my anger was coming from was I didn't have time to prepare for this regeneration. We usually have 3 to 6 months and I didn't have it. So all those emotions were coming up. That, though. That was like not knowing was amazing. when was the last time we didn't know. Legopolis for me. Yeah, yeah. I knew Legopolis. was terrified. This is Russell finally achieving what she wanted to do at the end of series one. Yes, which is springing the regeneration as a surprise on us. It took him 20 years. Yeah, because he managed it. Yeah. Well, that wasn't that much of a surprise because we all all assumed that there was a very good chance that the episode was going to end like this, not with Billy Pike with the regeneration right? Oh, we did, but I don't think the audience in general did. Fair enough. Okay. I wasn't really angry that Billy appears at the end because I felt basically for much of the last 2 years that they jumped the shark anyway. But I do feel that it's kind of gone the extra mile here because not because I don't like Villiers, everything Brendan said. There's nothing wrong with her as an actress. I just feel that regardless of what the rationale is here, so that if he knows that we're not getting another series, at least no time soon, what's this for? I think it's kind of just crossing too much of a line as in that it's playing and making too much fun of and taking too much of the Mickey out of the concept of the show. So I just think it's, I just think it's a bit regrettable. I would say that, um, it feels a little bit like trolling the audience and whether that's a good thing or bad thing is up to the audience. What I will say is that I think a friend of mine was talking about this. Russell, given the opportunity to do something that he would view as predictable, or boring or overly dramatic, or given the opportunity to end on a gag, we'll choose the gag every time, and I think that's basically what this is. Yeah and I think that's sad. I think that there was some talk, wasn't there, that he'd wanted like Jennifer Saunders or something to play the doctor for a short period during his 1st run. I want that. I want that still. How lovely. Yeah, I think she'd be great. But I think, you know, now, for people who are kind of worried about regeneration and stuff like that, we've had the limit removed. And so, you know, the BBC has done a press release saying what when, how, in what capacity, Billy's going to be on the show, we're not revealing yet. Um, but that will come and it quotes both, uh, I think it quotes both Billy and Russell. So I'll put a link to that. That was the BBC press release yesterday that did suggest that the story was going to continue, that she was excited to come back to Doctor Who. Because initially my 1st thought was, oh, she'll say yes. an old mate. I'll just call her. She's not doing anything, but I think, you know, there may be some kind of plan in the works. I'd like to see a completely unknown actor take on the role as a doctor, not somebody who's been in a series or an actor that is well renowned. But, you know, she's there for a reason and when that happens. I am going to be there for it. What's absolutely clear is that Billy Piper is not the next incarnation of the doctor for any particular length of time because it seems clear that the show is not in production at the moment for the 1st time since 2003. It's not a going concern right now. And no actor, let alone Nathan just said earlier, you know, Billy's not doing anything. Billy's very busy. Yeah, very, very, very, a big star in the UK television scene. And so the thought that she would kind of say, yes, I'll come and be the next doctor, but I'll start working on your series 3 years hence. It doesn't hold any water at all. So this is clearly in service of something which is going to happen, but it's not going to be a long-term solution. Yeah, possibly it's them going, well, we want to end on a bang. We want to do the best to try and set this up to maybe get a renewal at some point in the future. And ending it on that is a big headline getting thick. Yes, even if she's only in a couple of specials or just a Christmas special and then become someone else. It's a draw card to try and get people to watch. If the thought is that doing something like this assists the show being renewed in some format moving forward is, I think, a very odd and naive take from a television professional. Could I just follow that up with? That's exactly what I think Russell's doing. I think Russell's like, oh, you want to cancel, doctor? Do you want to cancel national treasure, Billy Piper? Exactly. He's what, 6263 now? He doesn't need Doctor Who. Yeah. Neither does Billy. You know? That's the thing. I think he is in a stage of life of having no F-bombs to give. So she's just like, I am going to do something crazy. And I do, I do agree with what people said earlier. It is a stunt. Um, I've kind of gone through it emotionally in the last day also and I'm, I'm, I'm, I'm on board with it being a stunt that may assist in the show, being commissioned again, or may just keep people talking about what the hell was that until in 10 years time Pete McTie brings it back or, or Juno Dawson, you know. I think it's like, if it's done as a bargaining chip, it's very much she's someone that's done a lot of work with Bad Wolf, like they did. I hate Susie. She's currently in Wednesday on Netflix. So if they're pitching at Netflix at Amazon, at any of those companies. They're like, here is someone with a track record that Americans recognise that people around the world know who she is and she is the lead for all intents and purposes if you buy this show. So it's, it's, I think it's a very much a planned thing. I mean, don't forget that Bad Wolf is now part owned by Sony, so they would want to see the show move forward. So it's, I feel like this is an, like a business decision more than anything else. I'm not entirely sure that that logic holds up given that if it was sold to, say, Netflix on the back of Billy Piper being your doctor and then she regenerates at the end of the 1st episode. I'm not sure they'd be very happy about that Well, no, that would be an ongoing discussion in the future. That's all we've got time for tonight, but before we go, I think some of us have things to plug. So let's start with Brendan. So this weekend, the three-handed game has just released its episode on the theme, This Green Unpleasant Land with the Tara King episode populated with Doctor Who guest stars called Wish You Were Here. And I'd also like to just point out that much like the chase, this story contains a whole bundle of elements, we have a new regular played by a character that we saw just a few weeks ago, depending on how you watch Doctor Who. And um, and also the doctor get into a very unexpected. then slightly unconvincing fight with another time lord. Excellent. Adam. Yeah, Adam Richard has a theory. My daily 10 minute Doctor Who podcast. Yes, daily. insane. All the rest of this week still talking about the finale and probably for the next 6 weeks. And I think I'll probably end up spending about 4 days recapping the 4 minute trailer of the... So I'm going to plug 500-year diary. We released our episode on Warriors of the Deep yesterday, and this Sunday we will be looking at the 2nd coming of Sill in Mind Warp. Oh, yeah, yuck. Sorry. Should really have rethought that whole season title, actually. That pop was in his little handful of goo. It's green. Marshmillows indeed. So moving along quickly. We also have untitled Star Trek project, which is taking a break this week, but we will be back next week, God willing, for the Star Trek, the Next Generation episode tapestry. Yeah, which is pretty damn good. So you can keep up with us on flightthroughentirety.com on Blue Sky or at FTE podcast on Mastodon or God help you on X. And so all that remains is for me to say, until next time, there's only one sad thing. I want to know what happens next. Thank you very much for listening and good night. Bye. Good night. Good night. It's the end if only the moment had been prepared for. See you soon. 8 out of 10 for the 1st half of this episode and 6 to 6.5 for the rest.