Hello, dear listener, and welcome back to the 2nd great and
bountiful Human Empire, the only Doctor Who flash cast with teeth
and hands by stable diffusion.
I'm Nathan.
I'm Todd.
I'm Peter.
I'm Simon.
And they had the premiere without me.
Thank you, Neres.
And I'm Brendan.
All right, so we have just watched, well, maybe a few hours ago
have just watched Wild Blue yonder, the 2nd of the 60th
anniversary specials, and let's start by asking the question.
What did we think of the pre-credits teaser?
And predictably, I'm going to start with you, Simon.
Why?
Because we'll start from the bottom and work up.
Look, I mean, I mean, obviously the pre-credit sequence is setting
something up, I assume, for next week's episode with Maavity, but
look, I mean, it's light and fluffy.
I was a bit, I mean, I really like this episode and I really think
it demonstrates what the show can be and what Russell and
everybody else is capable of doing.
It's just the fact that that 1st 5 or 10 minutes or 8 minutes or
whatever it is.
It's just, it sets me down the wrong path and took me a while to
recover from that.
So, look, it's a bit of fluff and it's just loud and people
shouting at each other in the sequence in the tree.
But look, whatever.
I just have to accept that I have to put up with these things to
get to the good bits.
I have to say that I was sort of painfully aware that Sir Isaac
Newton didn't invent the word gravity at all, and it's just the
Latin word for heaviness. anyway.
It's a me problem.
Todd.
I thought it was a lot of fun.
I did think the CGI out of the TARDIS was a bit crap.
But, um, you know, I like the fact that you think that it's going
to be a light and fluffy thing that we're going for and then
everything just begins to slowly turn into something else.
So I actually like that misdirection.
Peter?
That 1st sequence reminded me a little bit of modern day Simpsons
where they kind of have a skit all to themselves for the 1st 2 or
3 minutes and then get onto the proper story.
So I did enjoy that.
I thought it was actually quite fun.
It is unlike the story that follows it, but I quite liked that 90
degree turn.
Also, Simon, didn't we go to university with someone called
Mavity?
We did indeed.
I think it's just going to be a part of episode 3 really, isn't
it?
The teaser is actually part of episode three.
And we get Mavity seeded through the episode.
The doctor remembers both words, but Donna only recognises the new
one.
And we almost immediately say, Sir Isaac Newton's hot.
And so something has happened to the timeline. to turn the nerdy
and weedy and sickly Sir Isaac Newton into what we saw, the
hottest man in It's a Sin.
Brendan, what did you think?
Yeah, I thought it was a lovely 1st scene.
I agree that it's probably plot wise going to play a role next
week.
But I think in terms of tone.
Um, it's important to have because very shortly after they land on
the ship, the doctor and Donna are quite tense and even sort of
have a go at each other.
So having this bit at the beginning where they're both wanting to
make the part about gravity and both saying, no, don't, don't do
that.
And then they say it at the same time.
You know, it cements that even though Donna has blowed up the new
TARDIS, the TARDIS console room.
They're still best mates and they're still, you know, they want to
be having fun.
So of course, Russell T. Davies is like, I'm going to torture
them.
Um, Brendan, it's the 2nd go that Doctor Who's had, uh, in the new
era at a new version of gravity, because in the Impossible Planet
the doctor mentioned gravity shmavity.
So now we've got gravity, schmavity, mavity.
Let's talk about the setting.
Russell T. Davis apparently said that he was inspired by
underworld part one.
Uh, and I was getting some planet of evil vibes.
You know, we're way out in the sort of extremities of the universe
where normal rules no longer apply.
And that's true of all 3 of those episodes, I think.
But I thought maybe this was the scariest version of that.
Peter?
Um, I saw that Russell mentioned underworld.
It actually put me in mind of what I just talked about, the
Impossible Planet, because Impossible Planet was on this kind of
you know, this planet out on the edge of a black hole.
You get the impression it's the furthest they've ever gone.
This may be the furthest they've ever gone further than that.
But yeah, you're right.
The rules are suspended.
So in the impossible planet, they actually faced the devil as far
as, um, and here they face these 2 kind of beings who we've never
come across, sure if they're unleashed into our universe will
cause havoc.
And I like that.
I like that feeling of danger and being removed from the TARDAS.
That happened in the impossible planet, where it fell down into
the crevasse, and we didn't know what happened to it, and here, the
heads operate.
Could throw back to the crotons.
And so it's really unsettling and unnerving, and that's what I
liked about this episode.
Yeah, the, The story I was most reminded of, at least in the 1st
10 minutes, was um, uh, Skezzo, the big finish audio, which is a 2
hander between Paul McGann and India Fisher.
And of course, roughly around the time we get the golf cart, we
know it's not that.
And the golf cart's adorable.
But, you know, right down to the slight tension between the doctor
and Donna when they start arguing about why the TARDIS has
disappeared.
And it also straight away gives us another indication that this is
not just the tense doctor again because when Donna gets upset, he
takes her hand.
He kisses it.
He becomes very quiet and very soothing.
And, you know, it's not all Dick Van Dyke and apples and pears.
Um, And as for the as for the ship itself, it's a beautiful design
uh, the director of this episode, Tom Kingsley has put together a
um, Twitter thread of a bunch of behind the scenes, videos, and
it's amazing how little of the set was actually built on how much
of it is, um, CG for that long corridor.
And there's also a very amusing video of him as the giant version
of the monster chasing after the golf cart in an animatic.
And it's just him sort of running on all 4s.
Well, pretending to run on all 4s on a cushion.
But yes, I hardly recommend anyone. everyone check him out on
Twitter.
Yeah, I think it looked incredible.
That ship was really something, wasn't it?
Just extraordinary.
Yeah.
Yeah, I mean, I can sort of see that it's sort of 90% CGI, I hate
to say, that you sort of, you sort of just get so used to, to the
way that, that looks.
I'm not criticising it.
I mean, it's just it's just something that you can say.
I actually was reminded of 2001's Discovery spacecraft in this
very long backbone with kind of a big bubble at one end.
You don't really get a clear shot of it.
The clearest shot of it actually is when it's just about to start
blowing up.
But I was kind of reminded of the shape of 2001 discovery in that
sequence happens.
Look, I really liked the, you know, once the episode actually gets
going with, and you sort of discover, you sort of, it gradually
unfolds what's happening, I love the sort of red herrings because
when we 1st see the, well, the duplicate doctor and Donna for one
of the better description of them, you're not entirely sure
whether they're malevolent.
You think that there might just be some weird thing.
You think that they might even be part of the ship's, you know
computer trying to keep them company or something weird.
I mean, I had all sorts of thoughts flowing through my head.
Not sure how it was going to unfold.
And also the thing is, I didn't know that it was going to only
just be the 2 of them for 95% of the episode.
I didn't know whether that was known or whether that was a
surprise for everybody.
Yeah, no one knew.
People were saying Matt Smith was going to be in it or, you know
the reanimated corpse of William.
Alan Ford.
Yeah, you know, the reanimated corpse of Caroline Ford.
Like, yeah.
The thing, though, with the with the with the bits where, you know
my arms are too long and and and where the jaw starts dropping to
the floor is it's all kind of weird and strange without being
revolting.
I found that quite entrancing to watch.
You were never grossed out by it.
You were just kind of, you know, you couldn't take your eyes off
the screen.
I actually thought the big hands and stuff were actually kind of
gross because they were very real and it kind of emphasised just
the fleshiness of it.
And I think it is...
I think it's an episode that could only come into a world where we
have those text to image AIs, you know, like Daly or stable
diffusion that, you know, creates people with the wrong number of
mouths or teeth or or, you know, that can't quite get people
right.
And someone did post something suggesting that it owed something
to the fury from the deep animation, which I'm secretly going to
pretend is true.
Yes, less underworld, more furious than the deep reanimation.
Todd.
I really liked the fact that you had that point of view of
somebody watching them in that corridor to begin with before we
got up to the duplicates.
And even when the duplicate started, I was going, is this sort of
like, for a moment, it's going, is this sort of intercutting with
a scene, perhaps, in the future or something like that and
flashing back?
And then when the not Donna walked in, I sort of went, no, there's
something, then the penny began to drop.
And I just liked the, I liked the fact that it was just them, you
know, and I certainly gave David an opportunity to play a lot
quieter moments and more still and menacing, which I thought was
great.
Um, and for his 14th doctor to do different reactions.
I certainly felt that despite some moments that are very much
him.
There was a lot more range and a lot more stillness and um, in his
performance than previously.
Do we think this is actually a 14th doctor thing or do we think
it's just the fact that it's the David Tennant playing the role
however many years later, and so inevitably the performance will
evolve and change.
Like John Pert, we playing the 3rd doctor in the 5 doctors, for
instance.
I think I think that, yeah, David is more experienced as an actor
but also, I think from an actor's point of view, He wouldn't want
to come back and do it the same way.
Like, you know, he did 48. episodes before.
I think I think if he comes back, he'll be like, I want to do
something new and I want to honour the fact that Matt, Peter, and
Jody have all have all followed him.
Brendan, my fanbrain wants to say 47 David Tennant episodes, but
if you're adding the Starbeast, let's say 48.
Oh, 46.
Okay.
I may be counting dreamland in that.
That's just a number I have in my head.
But you're right.
Dreamland is not a proper episode.
I shall have to go look that up.
I think it was very clever, the fact they could only get, obviously
David and Catherine for 3 episodes.
And so they maximised their potential by placing them front and
centre, not having any distractions, just having them up against
themselves.
So we get more donner and doctor for our buck.
But also, I mean, going back to the quality of what it was like
and what the episode follows, I think there's been a lot of talk
of its nearest antecedent being midnight. and that's true.
But I like the fact that Russell flips it on his heads.
Midnight was all about what you didn't see and that was unnerving
whereas here he flips it and makes it all the body horror of what
you do see.
And so you have, you know, David Tennant doing the spider walking
from X. You have sort of the big crushed limbs together when
they're huge.
You have, obviously, the jaw dropping and all of that.
And it was all about making visuals scary without a lot of, without
a lot of verbiage to go with it, which I really liked.
It's all that dialogue too, between the doctor and the not
daughter and the opposite, like, you know, where they're actually
delving deeper into what's going on in over the last 15 years.
And so we're getting answers, but they're not necessarily getting
the answers between each other.
I love the fact that I think that Donna actually lies at the end
when she says that she doesn't remember because I think it's
obvious that she does.
And, um, you know, I think it was great that she was concerned
about her family and wanting to get back and, and I know I'm
jumping ahead here, but the moment at the end where the spaceship
is footing and she's there.
The absolute look on her face, the horror.
I mean, he, he is, and I thought, 0 my god, they're going to
actually, you know, kill her for a moment.
And I was on the edge of my seat, but also in terms of that
character, realising that, you know, she can let the doctor go, she
needs to go back to her family because this is too much.
And I really like, one of the things I liked about this episode is
sort of the setting up of that, the doctor talking about, The flux
and the timeless child, I think, you know, Russell paying dues to
that and giving that a bit of weight and giving us, not
necessarily answers, but, you know, I thought we never got the
answers we needed, but here he is putting things in that can carry
forward.
We never found out what the flux did, and it was very much a case
of half the universe wouldn't want us to mourn.
Let's go off and have a holiday on a sentient beach.
You know, like, and Russell makes it land.
He says, all right, half the universe was destroyed and he makes
the doctor feel something about it.
And that was really quite weightless, I think, at the end of
flux.
We really never got that payoff.
And he didn't have to do that.
And I'm kind of glad that he did.
Isn't it funny how the half universe that gets destroyed, never is
Earth's half and always is Trarkan's half.
Yeah, that's good though.
The 25% of the console of the TARNIS that gets jettisoned never
includes the console room either.
So, you know, but I actually think that he's actually making it.
It is all of those things, but I think also, most importantly, he's
making that little statement saying, yes, that all counts.
Yes, I'm not I'm not going to try and pretend that it didn't
happen.
Yes, I'm accepting it and we're going to own it and we're going to
move on.
I think that's what that's about as well.
Russell would never do anything as inelegant as trying to erase
that from Doctor Who's history, but, you know, he's got the he's
got the ability to give it a bit more weight, which is really all
we need.
Yeah, well, no, not necessarily a razor, but just forget about
it.
Like it would be so easy just to sort of, we'll never, we'll just
never talk about it.
You know what I mean?
Yeah.
It's why I think Doctor Who can ever be rebooted because we were
all there.
We saw all the previous episodes, they happened.
You know, we all watched Flux.
It happened in our living room and having the doctor kind of deny
that or just never mention it again is weird, I think, in the
modern era.
It's kind of like, I have no problem with Doctor Who never
mentioning dimensions in time, right?
I have no problem with them never mentioning it.
I do.
But here's the thing.
There's a new adventure that basically says it was a horrible
nightmare the doctor had, you know, after he had a dinner that
disagreed with him and I kind of look at that and I go, that's
mean spirited.
Like it's mean-spirited to the people who love dimensions in
time.
And it's, it's also just kind of like, if, if you want to sort of
say it didn't happen, just don't, yeah, just don't talk about it.
But to say, no, it definitely happened and here's an emotional
payoff from it.
I found that highly effective.
And especially something I loved about it was when Tennant walks
out of that, the doctor has to take a moment to get the rage and
the sorrow out in some way.
And we've seen Tennant do it before in the end of time, but I
think it's so much more effective here because there are no
words.
It is a guttural sobbing.
Anger instead of a speech about how he could, he could have done
more.
He could have done this.
It's it's um, it's visceral and emotional, which I think is very
appropriate for this episode.
I just thought, you know, the episode manages to be about
something more than just sort of scary monsters in a spaceship, and
it is about the doctor and Donna trying to have conversations with
each other about real things and failing because they're speaking
to the duplicate all the time.
And as you said, Todd, there's that thing at the end where they
sort of have that conversation, but Donna can't bring herself to
admit that she knows what went on for the doctor during those 15
years.
Um, and then the TARDIS lands and she says to him, you timed that
in order to avoid an awkward conversation.
And so it's all about them getting together after all of this time
but not managing to properly speak to one another.
And I thought that that was really good and really interesting.
And again, it's refreshing to have an episode that's about
something more than just the space problem that we're encountering
this week.
It, it gives a gravity to the situation, Avatar.
Yes, the natity to the situation and and to this story.
And like, I mean, it would have been so easy to say we're going to
have 3 specials and they're all just going to be whizz, bang, you
know, sort of like dalek, cybermen.
God knows what.
And I think this is, this is why I love this episode so much.
And I loved last week as well, but it just is, I was just, it was
just compelling and it was, there was an interiority to it that I
just really liked and, yeah, it was the right, I think it was the
right direction to go because obviously next week it's going to be
like, well, we'll see.
It's just such a lovely idea, having the doctor and Donna by
themselves facing another doctor and Donna, while they can't face
themselves or each other.
It's just, you know, welcome back Russell.
So let's talk about next week.
I think we are in for a sort of big dumb spectacle of the kind
that I really like, but I'm sort of happy that it's not going to
involve Daleks and Cybermen unless we've all been horribly duped.
How did you feel about the cliffhanger and that scene?
I really love the fact that Donna knows her family so well to know
that the one waiting for her will be willf.
You know, and she's the thing is, she's fine with that.
Like she doesn't say, oh, you know, Rose will come back once every
so often and that's fine, but my grandad, he's going to be there
with a flask and, you know, and there he is and that's beautiful.
As a cliffhanger, you know.
We've had a story, as we've been saying, which is about
communication and failed communication, but also, there's several
times where the doctor and Donna put aside their fear or their
anger to solve the situation and to support each other.
And they get back to earth and people are randomly attacking each
other and there just seems to be this, this, um, rage virus, I
suppose, to use the term from 28 days later, um, going around and
so even the cliffhanger juxtaposes what happens in the episode.
And also we get Bernard Crittens.
The late great Bernard Crittens.
Um, It's, it's, it's perfectly judged.
I think that this is the only scene that we get with him.
Am I right?
Yes.
I think Russell's confirmed that today.
They did write more for him, but after they filmed this, there was
a mutual agreement that that was enough.
He wasn't too much.
But then, yeah.
But apparently Bernard came to the full read through and everyone
loved him and he was entertaining people and what have you, which
is lovely to hear.
And the episode was dedicated to his memory as well, of course.
Simon, what did you think?
I'm optimistic about next week, um, because I, even though, yes
it's going to be, it's going to be that kind of, you know, big
spectacle and lots of things going to happen, but I'm looking
forward to hoping that we're going to have a quite a surreal
episode.
I mean, I don't think this is a spoilery thing to say because it
sort of was on clips and stuff, but there's a sort of a bit, I
think it's a fan made video or something of Neil Patrick Harris
and David Tennant sort of dancing together in the middle of all of
this kind of mayhem and then going off.
It's that's the sort of thing that I think can be very odd and
very effective and I'll be fascinated to see how it unfolds and
I'm very hopeful.
Do you remember before we all saw the celestial toy maker how
intriguing the kind of the concept was, you know, the how surreal
and strange we all thought it was and how great we thought it
would have been?
But that's also because Ian Levine was telling us that it was one
of the best stories ever, remember. that's true. that's right And
so was Jeremy about so many celebration.
Yeah.
It's not, it's just her, it's just unfortunately realised because
it's all too laboured in a studio where you can only, you know, cut
twice in each episode.
I mean, look, there are obviously many other problems with it as
well.
But I think it is the kind of thing that I'm reading, you know, the
one paragraph that was available in the 20th anniversary magazine
special or the doctor, the making of Doctor Who, and being quite
captivated by it, by the sound of it.
Yeah.
I'm sure Russell had the same experience.
I think we can say with some certainty, the next week's episode is
going to be better than the Celestial Toy Maker.
Because I think while the ideas at the heart of Celestial Toy
Maker are quite fun.
The execution is no fun at all, whereas Russell is all about
taking ideas like that and putting interesting spins on them.
So I think it's going to be a very good episode.
I want I want the trilogic game back in it, please, for next
week.
There'll have to be a reference to it.
Surely there has to be a reference to it.
I want to return for the feared dodo doctor.
Oh my god, though.
Seeing Bernard. obviously brought a lump to my throat and it was
just a lovely moment and with everything cliffhanger with the
cliffhanger there.
I am really looking forward to what they're going to do next week
and seeing how David plays off Neil Patrick Harris.
I think that's going to be really intriguing.
And I'm looking forward to seeing the head of unit back.
Oh, yeah, of course.
Kate Stewart.
We're still trying to make Kate Stewart happen.
Yes, I'm still trying to make her happen, right?
I am actually looking forward to seeing her, seeing what she, you
know, yeah.
I can anticipate she'll have a furrowed brow and no emotion.
How about that?
I'm hoping we get Shirley and Bingham back.
Oh, yes.
Yeah, me too.
We do.
Oh, good.
Yeah, you can see her in that scene where the doctor is on top of
that building and the toy maker is pointing the gun at him.
You can see her in the background.
It's great.
Excellent.
Good.
I thought that Mavity may have come into play with the fake donor
in the TARDIS, right, with her slipping up there, but it didn't.
And I actually predict that it may not actually come into play
next week.
It might be a thing that goes on longer.
Okay.
Which would be quite interesting.
Yes.
The mention of the boss in the Starbeast.
Russell has already confirmed that that's a season 14, possibly
season 15 thing.
Right.
We haven't really talked about the self-destruct mechanism of that
spaceship in, let's just assume it was running at normal speed
rather than the hyper slow down speed.
But basically you set the self-destruct of the spacecraft.
And then this tiny robot walks along this very, very long corridor
to then press a button and then blow the ship up.
I don't know why you don't just press the button yourself.
It's uh, it's interesting.
Well, she, it's very self-out the air, but very effective.
It wasn't available to press the button, I think.
No, but you're operating self-destruct under normal
circumstances.
Yes, again, I suppose what are the normal circumstances that you
self-destruct this ship?
All right.
Well, unless anyone has anything more to add.
I think we might wind up.
I'm going to plug some things.
The flight through entirety series 9 coverage.
Kind of finishes this Sunday with the retrospective.
We have 2 episodes of Startling Barbara Bain. already released
covering the 1st 2 episodes of Space 1999.
She's extra startled.
She's super startled.
We have maximum power powering its way through series 3 of Blake
7.
No one's gonna correct me?
Numbers?
I've given up Nathan.
And I never cared.
And we have untitled Star Trek Project, which will this week, God
willing, be covering Star Trek for the voyage home.
Oh, you deserve a treat.
Yes, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
We've had a rough run, I tell you what.
I'm quite fond of that.
It's wonderful.
It's really great I confess I haven't seen it this century, so I
might have a different view of it if I watched it again.
It's very period.
Yeah, yeah, just say that. 80s is period drama.
That's right.
All right.
So all that remains is for me to say, until next time, remember
that people being hot is always a good thing.
Thank you very much for listening and good night.
See you soon.
Good night.