WEBVTT NOTE This transcript was created on 2026-05-02 at 15:31:05 1 00:00:00.000 --> 00:00:03.299 Hello, dear listener, and welcome back to the 2nd great and 2 00:00:03.299 --> 00:00:07.440 bountiful Human Empire, the only Doctor Who flash cast with teeth 3 00:00:07.440 --> 00:00:09.720 and hands by stable diffusion. 4 00:00:09.779 --> 00:00:11.580 I'm Nathan. 5 00:00:11.640 --> 00:00:12.720 I'm Todd. 6 00:00:12.779 --> 00:00:13.560 I'm Peter. 7 00:00:13.619 --> 00:00:14.580 I'm Simon. 8 00:00:14.640 --> 00:00:18.420 And they had the premiere without me. 9 00:00:20.579 --> 00:00:22.620 Thank you, Neres. 10 00:00:22.679 --> 00:00:24.059 And I'm Brendan. 11 00:00:25.140 --> 00:00:31.440 All right, so we have just watched, well, maybe a few hours ago 12 00:00:31.440 --> 00:00:36.299 have just watched Wild Blue yonder, the 2nd of the 60th 13 00:00:36.299 --> 00:00:42.299 anniversary specials, and let's start by asking the question. 14 00:00:42.359 --> 00:00:46.140 What did we think of the pre-credits teaser? 15 00:00:46.200 --> 00:00:48.719 And predictably, I'm going to start with you, Simon. 16 00:00:48.780 --> 00:00:49.799 Why? 17 00:00:49.859 --> 00:00:52.560 Because we'll start from the bottom and work up. 18 00:00:52.619 --> 00:00:56.700 Look, I mean, I mean, obviously the pre-credit sequence is setting 19 00:00:56.700 --> 00:01:00.299 something up, I assume, for next week's episode with Maavity, but 20 00:01:00.299 --> 00:01:02.579 look, I mean, it's light and fluffy. 21 00:01:02.640 --> 00:01:07.079 I was a bit, I mean, I really like this episode and I really think 22 00:01:07.079 --> 00:01:10.260 it demonstrates what the show can be and what Russell and 23 00:01:10.260 --> 00:01:11.700 everybody else is capable of doing. 24 00:01:11.760 --> 00:01:15.599 It's just the fact that that 1st 5 or 10 minutes or 8 minutes or 25 00:01:15.599 --> 00:01:16.140 whatever it is. 26 00:01:16.200 --> 00:01:19.680 It's just, it sets me down the wrong path and took me a while to 27 00:01:19.680 --> 00:01:20.219 recover from that. 28 00:01:20.280 --> 00:01:23.340 So, look, it's a bit of fluff and it's just loud and people 29 00:01:23.340 --> 00:01:25.739 shouting at each other in the sequence in the tree. 30 00:01:25.799 --> 00:01:26.459 But look, whatever. 31 00:01:26.519 --> 00:01:28.680 I just have to accept that I have to put up with these things to 32 00:01:28.680 --> 00:01:29.280 get to the good bits. 33 00:01:29.340 --> 00:01:34.319 I have to say that I was sort of painfully aware that Sir Isaac 34 00:01:34.319 --> 00:01:38.280 Newton didn't invent the word gravity at all, and it's just the 35 00:01:38.280 --> 00:01:40.439 Latin word for heaviness. anyway. 36 00:01:40.500 --> 00:01:41.519 It's a me problem. 37 00:01:41.579 --> 00:01:42.959 Todd. 38 00:01:43.079 --> 00:01:45.000 I thought it was a lot of fun. 39 00:01:45.060 --> 00:01:48.359 I did think the CGI out of the TARDIS was a bit crap. 40 00:01:48.420 --> 00:01:53.219 But, um, you know, I like the fact that you think that it's going 41 00:01:53.219 --> 00:01:56.040 to be a light and fluffy thing that we're going for and then 42 00:01:56.040 --> 00:02:00.719 everything just begins to slowly turn into something else. 43 00:02:00.780 --> 00:02:02.700 So I actually like that misdirection. 44 00:02:02.760 --> 00:02:04.200 Peter? 45 00:02:04.620 --> 00:02:08.699 That 1st sequence reminded me a little bit of modern day Simpsons 46 00:02:08.699 --> 00:02:11.400 where they kind of have a skit all to themselves for the 1st 2 or 47 00:02:11.400 --> 00:02:13.080 3 minutes and then get onto the proper story. 48 00:02:13.199 --> 00:02:14.580 So I did enjoy that. 49 00:02:14.639 --> 00:02:16.259 I thought it was actually quite fun. 50 00:02:16.319 --> 00:02:20.039 It is unlike the story that follows it, but I quite liked that 90 51 00:02:20.039 --> 00:02:20.819 degree turn. 52 00:02:20.879 --> 00:02:22.979 Also, Simon, didn't we go to university with someone called 53 00:02:22.979 --> 00:02:23.580 Mavity? 54 00:02:23.759 --> 00:02:25.680 We did indeed. 55 00:02:27.780 --> 00:02:33.360 I think it's just going to be a part of episode 3 really, isn't 56 00:02:33.360 --> 00:02:33.659 it? 57 00:02:33.719 --> 00:02:36.360 The teaser is actually part of episode three. 58 00:02:36.419 --> 00:02:38.699 And we get Mavity seeded through the episode. 59 00:02:38.759 --> 00:02:41.819 The doctor remembers both words, but Donna only recognises the new 60 00:02:41.819 --> 00:02:42.180 one. 61 00:02:42.180 --> 00:02:46.319 And we almost immediately say, Sir Isaac Newton's hot. 62 00:02:46.379 --> 00:02:51.300 And so something has happened to the timeline. to turn the nerdy 63 00:02:51.300 --> 00:02:56.819 and weedy and sickly Sir Isaac Newton into what we saw, the 64 00:02:56.819 --> 00:02:59.219 hottest man in It's a Sin. 65 00:02:59.400 --> 00:03:01.500 Brendan, what did you think? 66 00:03:02.159 --> 00:03:06.960 Yeah, I thought it was a lovely 1st scene. 67 00:03:07.199 --> 00:03:12.120 I agree that it's probably plot wise going to play a role next 68 00:03:12.120 --> 00:03:12.479 week. 69 00:03:12.599 --> 00:03:14.759 But I think in terms of tone. 70 00:03:14.819 --> 00:03:21.419 Um, it's important to have because very shortly after they land on 71 00:03:21.419 --> 00:03:25.680 the ship, the doctor and Donna are quite tense and even sort of 72 00:03:25.680 --> 00:03:26.699 have a go at each other. 73 00:03:26.759 --> 00:03:30.539 So having this bit at the beginning where they're both wanting to 74 00:03:30.539 --> 00:03:33.659 make the part about gravity and both saying, no, don't, don't do 75 00:03:33.659 --> 00:03:33.840 that. 76 00:03:33.900 --> 00:03:35.879 And then they say it at the same time. 77 00:03:35.939 --> 00:03:39.479 You know, it cements that even though Donna has blowed up the new 78 00:03:39.479 --> 00:03:42.240 TARDIS, the TARDIS console room. 79 00:03:42.300 --> 00:03:46.439 They're still best mates and they're still, you know, they want to 80 00:03:46.439 --> 00:03:47.159 be having fun. 81 00:03:47.219 --> 00:03:51.360 So of course, Russell T. Davies is like, I'm going to torture 82 00:03:51.360 --> 00:03:51.719 them. 83 00:03:51.780 --> 00:03:58.379 Um, Brendan, it's the 2nd go that Doctor Who's had, uh, in the new 84 00:03:58.379 --> 00:04:01.439 era at a new version of gravity, because in the Impossible Planet 85 00:04:01.439 --> 00:04:03.719 the doctor mentioned gravity shmavity. 86 00:04:03.780 --> 00:04:06.599 So now we've got gravity, schmavity, mavity. 87 00:04:07.979 --> 00:04:10.139 Let's talk about the setting. 88 00:04:10.199 --> 00:04:14.699 Russell T. Davis apparently said that he was inspired by 89 00:04:14.699 --> 00:04:16.379 underworld part one. 90 00:04:16.439 --> 00:04:21.839 Uh, and I was getting some planet of evil vibes. 91 00:04:21.899 --> 00:04:26.339 You know, we're way out in the sort of extremities of the universe 92 00:04:26.339 --> 00:04:29.339 where normal rules no longer apply. 93 00:04:29.399 --> 00:04:32.759 And that's true of all 3 of those episodes, I think. 94 00:04:32.819 --> 00:04:36.600 But I thought maybe this was the scariest version of that. 95 00:04:36.660 --> 00:04:37.139 Peter? 96 00:04:37.199 --> 00:04:40.139 Um, I saw that Russell mentioned underworld. 97 00:04:40.199 --> 00:04:42.360 It actually put me in mind of what I just talked about, the 98 00:04:42.360 --> 00:04:45.600 Impossible Planet, because Impossible Planet was on this kind of 99 00:04:45.600 --> 00:04:48.240 you know, this planet out on the edge of a black hole. 100 00:04:48.300 --> 00:04:50.279 You get the impression it's the furthest they've ever gone. 101 00:04:50.339 --> 00:04:52.500 This may be the furthest they've ever gone further than that. 102 00:04:52.620 --> 00:04:54.060 But yeah, you're right. 103 00:04:54.120 --> 00:04:55.079 The rules are suspended. 104 00:04:55.139 --> 00:04:58.379 So in the impossible planet, they actually faced the devil as far 105 00:04:58.379 --> 00:05:02.759 as, um, and here they face these 2 kind of beings who we've never 106 00:05:02.759 --> 00:05:05.339 come across, sure if they're unleashed into our universe will 107 00:05:05.339 --> 00:05:06.240 cause havoc. 108 00:05:06.300 --> 00:05:07.259 And I like that. 109 00:05:07.319 --> 00:05:11.759 I like that feeling of danger and being removed from the TARDAS. 110 00:05:11.819 --> 00:05:13.920 That happened in the impossible planet, where it fell down into 111 00:05:13.920 --> 00:05:16.800 the crevasse, and we didn't know what happened to it, and here, the 112 00:05:16.800 --> 00:05:17.579 heads operate. 113 00:05:17.639 --> 00:05:19.139 Could throw back to the crotons. 114 00:05:19.199 --> 00:05:23.699 And so it's really unsettling and unnerving, and that's what I 115 00:05:23.699 --> 00:05:24.600 liked about this episode. 116 00:05:25.319 --> 00:05:30.420 Yeah, the, The story I was most reminded of, at least in the 1st 117 00:05:30.420 --> 00:05:36.120 10 minutes, was um, uh, Skezzo, the big finish audio, which is a 2 118 00:05:36.120 --> 00:05:38.759 hander between Paul McGann and India Fisher. 119 00:05:38.819 --> 00:05:42.360 And of course, roughly around the time we get the golf cart, we 120 00:05:42.360 --> 00:05:43.139 know it's not that. 121 00:05:43.139 --> 00:05:46.259 And the golf cart's adorable. 122 00:05:46.319 --> 00:05:49.860 But, you know, right down to the slight tension between the doctor 123 00:05:49.860 --> 00:05:52.319 and Donna when they start arguing about why the TARDIS has 124 00:05:52.319 --> 00:05:53.339 disappeared. 125 00:05:53.399 --> 00:05:59.699 And it also straight away gives us another indication that this is 126 00:05:59.699 --> 00:06:02.939 not just the tense doctor again because when Donna gets upset, he 127 00:06:02.939 --> 00:06:03.600 takes her hand. 128 00:06:03.660 --> 00:06:04.439 He kisses it. 129 00:06:04.500 --> 00:06:06.720 He becomes very quiet and very soothing. 130 00:06:06.779 --> 00:06:10.139 And, you know, it's not all Dick Van Dyke and apples and pears. 131 00:06:10.199 --> 00:06:14.939 Um, And as for the as for the ship itself, it's a beautiful design 132 00:06:14.939 --> 00:06:19.199 uh, the director of this episode, Tom Kingsley has put together a 133 00:06:19.199 --> 00:06:24.180 um, Twitter thread of a bunch of behind the scenes, videos, and 134 00:06:24.180 --> 00:06:27.660 it's amazing how little of the set was actually built on how much 135 00:06:27.660 --> 00:06:31.500 of it is, um, CG for that long corridor. 136 00:06:31.800 --> 00:06:35.759 And there's also a very amusing video of him as the giant version 137 00:06:35.759 --> 00:06:40.620 of the monster chasing after the golf cart in an animatic. 138 00:06:40.620 --> 00:06:43.379 And it's just him sort of running on all 4s. 139 00:06:43.439 --> 00:06:45.660 Well, pretending to run on all 4s on a cushion. 140 00:06:45.959 --> 00:06:50.279 But yes, I hardly recommend anyone. everyone check him out on 141 00:06:50.279 --> 00:06:50.639 Twitter. 142 00:06:50.759 --> 00:06:52.500 Yeah, I think it looked incredible. 143 00:06:52.560 --> 00:06:54.540 That ship was really something, wasn't it? 144 00:06:54.600 --> 00:06:55.379 Just extraordinary. 145 00:06:55.439 --> 00:06:55.920 Yeah. 146 00:06:55.920 --> 00:07:00.540 Yeah, I mean, I can sort of see that it's sort of 90% CGI, I hate 147 00:07:00.540 --> 00:07:04.199 to say, that you sort of, you sort of just get so used to, to the 148 00:07:04.199 --> 00:07:05.160 way that, that looks. 149 00:07:05.220 --> 00:07:06.420 I'm not criticising it. 150 00:07:06.480 --> 00:07:08.399 I mean, it's just it's just something that you can say. 151 00:07:08.459 --> 00:07:12.720 I actually was reminded of 2001's Discovery spacecraft in this 152 00:07:12.720 --> 00:07:15.720 very long backbone with kind of a big bubble at one end. 153 00:07:15.779 --> 00:07:17.339 You don't really get a clear shot of it. 154 00:07:17.399 --> 00:07:19.439 The clearest shot of it actually is when it's just about to start 155 00:07:19.439 --> 00:07:20.100 blowing up. 156 00:07:20.160 --> 00:07:24.480 But I was kind of reminded of the shape of 2001 discovery in that 157 00:07:24.480 --> 00:07:25.259 sequence happens. 158 00:07:25.319 --> 00:07:31.019 Look, I really liked the, you know, once the episode actually gets 159 00:07:31.019 --> 00:07:34.980 going with, and you sort of discover, you sort of, it gradually 160 00:07:34.980 --> 00:07:38.339 unfolds what's happening, I love the sort of red herrings because 161 00:07:38.339 --> 00:07:42.300 when we 1st see the, well, the duplicate doctor and Donna for one 162 00:07:42.300 --> 00:07:45.180 of the better description of them, you're not entirely sure 163 00:07:45.180 --> 00:07:46.860 whether they're malevolent. 164 00:07:46.920 --> 00:07:48.959 You think that there might just be some weird thing. 165 00:07:49.019 --> 00:07:52.439 You think that they might even be part of the ship's, you know 166 00:07:52.439 --> 00:07:55.199 computer trying to keep them company or something weird. 167 00:07:55.259 --> 00:07:58.740 I mean, I had all sorts of thoughts flowing through my head. 168 00:07:58.800 --> 00:08:01.500 Not sure how it was going to unfold. 169 00:08:01.560 --> 00:08:03.600 And also the thing is, I didn't know that it was going to only 170 00:08:03.600 --> 00:08:06.000 just be the 2 of them for 95% of the episode. 171 00:08:06.060 --> 00:08:08.699 I didn't know whether that was known or whether that was a 172 00:08:08.699 --> 00:08:09.360 surprise for everybody. 173 00:08:09.420 --> 00:08:11.040 Yeah, no one knew. 174 00:08:11.100 --> 00:08:13.620 People were saying Matt Smith was going to be in it or, you know 175 00:08:13.620 --> 00:08:16.139 the reanimated corpse of William. 176 00:08:16.199 --> 00:08:16.800 Alan Ford. 177 00:08:16.860 --> 00:08:19.800 Yeah, you know, the reanimated corpse of Caroline Ford. 178 00:08:19.860 --> 00:08:21.060 Like, yeah. 179 00:08:21.959 --> 00:08:25.439 The thing, though, with the with the with the bits where, you know 180 00:08:25.439 --> 00:08:28.860 my arms are too long and and and where the jaw starts dropping to 181 00:08:28.860 --> 00:08:33.059 the floor is it's all kind of weird and strange without being 182 00:08:33.059 --> 00:08:33.659 revolting. 183 00:08:33.720 --> 00:08:36.480 I found that quite entrancing to watch. 184 00:08:36.659 --> 00:08:39.000 You were never grossed out by it. 185 00:08:39.059 --> 00:08:41.100 You were just kind of, you know, you couldn't take your eyes off 186 00:08:41.100 --> 00:08:41.399 the screen. 187 00:08:41.460 --> 00:08:45.240 I actually thought the big hands and stuff were actually kind of 188 00:08:45.240 --> 00:08:50.700 gross because they were very real and it kind of emphasised just 189 00:08:50.700 --> 00:08:51.720 the fleshiness of it. 190 00:08:51.779 --> 00:08:54.299 And I think it is... 191 00:08:54.360 --> 00:08:58.320 I think it's an episode that could only come into a world where we 192 00:08:58.320 --> 00:09:03.059 have those text to image AIs, you know, like Daly or stable 193 00:09:03.059 --> 00:09:06.480 diffusion that, you know, creates people with the wrong number of 194 00:09:06.480 --> 00:09:09.779 mouths or teeth or or, you know, that can't quite get people 195 00:09:09.779 --> 00:09:10.379 right. 196 00:09:10.440 --> 00:09:15.059 And someone did post something suggesting that it owed something 197 00:09:15.059 --> 00:09:19.559 to the fury from the deep animation, which I'm secretly going to 198 00:09:19.559 --> 00:09:21.240 pretend is true. 199 00:09:21.659 --> 00:09:25.559 Yes, less underworld, more furious than the deep reanimation. 200 00:09:25.620 --> 00:09:26.759 Todd. 201 00:09:26.820 --> 00:09:31.320 I really liked the fact that you had that point of view of 202 00:09:31.320 --> 00:09:34.679 somebody watching them in that corridor to begin with before we 203 00:09:34.679 --> 00:09:37.200 got up to the duplicates. 204 00:09:37.320 --> 00:09:39.720 And even when the duplicate started, I was going, is this sort of 205 00:09:39.720 --> 00:09:43.320 like, for a moment, it's going, is this sort of intercutting with 206 00:09:43.320 --> 00:09:47.100 a scene, perhaps, in the future or something like that and 207 00:09:47.100 --> 00:09:47.820 flashing back? 208 00:09:47.879 --> 00:09:53.519 And then when the not Donna walked in, I sort of went, no, there's 209 00:09:53.519 --> 00:09:55.559 something, then the penny began to drop. 210 00:09:55.620 --> 00:09:59.759 And I just liked the, I liked the fact that it was just them, you 211 00:09:59.759 --> 00:10:03.419 know, and I certainly gave David an opportunity to play a lot 212 00:10:03.419 --> 00:10:06.299 quieter moments and more still and menacing, which I thought was 213 00:10:06.299 --> 00:10:06.779 great. 214 00:10:06.840 --> 00:10:11.580 Um, and for his 14th doctor to do different reactions. 215 00:10:11.639 --> 00:10:15.480 I certainly felt that despite some moments that are very much 216 00:10:15.480 --> 00:10:15.960 him. 217 00:10:16.019 --> 00:10:22.980 There was a lot more range and a lot more stillness and um, in his 218 00:10:22.980 --> 00:10:24.299 performance than previously. 219 00:10:25.019 --> 00:10:28.440 Do we think this is actually a 14th doctor thing or do we think 220 00:10:28.440 --> 00:10:31.919 it's just the fact that it's the David Tennant playing the role 221 00:10:31.919 --> 00:10:34.919 however many years later, and so inevitably the performance will 222 00:10:34.919 --> 00:10:35.580 evolve and change. 223 00:10:35.639 --> 00:10:37.860 Like John Pert, we playing the 3rd doctor in the 5 doctors, for 224 00:10:37.860 --> 00:10:38.159 instance. 225 00:10:38.220 --> 00:10:42.120 I think I think that, yeah, David is more experienced as an actor 226 00:10:42.120 --> 00:10:44.759 but also, I think from an actor's point of view, He wouldn't want 227 00:10:44.759 --> 00:10:45.960 to come back and do it the same way. 228 00:10:46.019 --> 00:10:50.580 Like, you know, he did 48. episodes before. 229 00:10:50.639 --> 00:10:53.879 I think I think if he comes back, he'll be like, I want to do 230 00:10:53.879 --> 00:10:57.960 something new and I want to honour the fact that Matt, Peter, and 231 00:10:57.960 --> 00:10:59.759 Jody have all have all followed him. 232 00:10:59.820 --> 00:11:03.600 Brendan, my fanbrain wants to say 47 David Tennant episodes, but 233 00:11:03.600 --> 00:11:05.519 if you're adding the Starbeast, let's say 48. 234 00:11:06.539 --> 00:11:08.580 Oh, 46. 235 00:11:08.820 --> 00:11:09.059 Okay. 236 00:11:09.120 --> 00:11:12.059 I may be counting dreamland in that. 237 00:11:12.120 --> 00:11:13.620 That's just a number I have in my head. 238 00:11:13.679 --> 00:11:14.519 But you're right. 239 00:11:14.580 --> 00:11:16.080 Dreamland is not a proper episode. 240 00:11:16.139 --> 00:11:18.179 I shall have to go look that up. 241 00:11:18.240 --> 00:11:20.039 I shall have to go look that up. 242 00:11:20.100 --> 00:11:23.639 I think it was very clever, the fact they could only get, obviously 243 00:11:23.639 --> 00:11:25.620 David and Catherine for 3 episodes. 244 00:11:25.620 --> 00:11:29.879 And so they maximised their potential by placing them front and 245 00:11:29.879 --> 00:11:32.159 centre, not having any distractions, just having them up against 246 00:11:32.159 --> 00:11:32.639 themselves. 247 00:11:32.639 --> 00:11:36.059 So we get more donner and doctor for our buck. 248 00:11:36.120 --> 00:11:40.860 But also, I mean, going back to the quality of what it was like 249 00:11:40.860 --> 00:11:45.059 and what the episode follows, I think there's been a lot of talk 250 00:11:45.059 --> 00:11:48.659 of its nearest antecedent being midnight. and that's true. 251 00:11:48.720 --> 00:11:51.179 But I like the fact that Russell flips it on his heads. 252 00:11:51.240 --> 00:11:54.360 Midnight was all about what you didn't see and that was unnerving 253 00:11:54.360 --> 00:11:57.419 whereas here he flips it and makes it all the body horror of what 254 00:11:57.419 --> 00:11:58.139 you do see. 255 00:11:58.200 --> 00:12:02.039 And so you have, you know, David Tennant doing the spider walking 256 00:12:02.039 --> 00:12:06.600 from X. You have sort of the big crushed limbs together when 257 00:12:06.600 --> 00:12:07.259 they're huge. 258 00:12:07.320 --> 00:12:10.379 You have, obviously, the jaw dropping and all of that. 259 00:12:10.440 --> 00:12:15.539 And it was all about making visuals scary without a lot of, without 260 00:12:15.539 --> 00:12:17.700 a lot of verbiage to go with it, which I really liked. 261 00:12:18.000 --> 00:12:22.799 It's all that dialogue too, between the doctor and the not 262 00:12:22.799 --> 00:12:25.559 daughter and the opposite, like, you know, where they're actually 263 00:12:25.559 --> 00:12:31.259 delving deeper into what's going on in over the last 15 years. 264 00:12:31.320 --> 00:12:36.720 And so we're getting answers, but they're not necessarily getting 265 00:12:36.720 --> 00:12:37.679 the answers between each other. 266 00:12:37.740 --> 00:12:41.639 I love the fact that I think that Donna actually lies at the end 267 00:12:41.639 --> 00:12:44.399 when she says that she doesn't remember because I think it's 268 00:12:44.399 --> 00:12:45.059 obvious that she does. 269 00:12:45.120 --> 00:12:48.360 And, um, you know, I think it was great that she was concerned 270 00:12:48.360 --> 00:12:51.419 about her family and wanting to get back and, and I know I'm 271 00:12:51.419 --> 00:12:54.659 jumping ahead here, but the moment at the end where the spaceship 272 00:12:54.659 --> 00:12:55.919 is footing and she's there. 273 00:12:55.980 --> 00:12:58.259 The absolute look on her face, the horror. 274 00:12:58.320 --> 00:13:01.320 I mean, he, he is, and I thought, 0 my god, they're going to 275 00:13:01.320 --> 00:13:03.720 actually, you know, kill her for a moment. 276 00:13:03.720 --> 00:13:06.779 And I was on the edge of my seat, but also in terms of that 277 00:13:06.779 --> 00:13:10.200 character, realising that, you know, she can let the doctor go, she 278 00:13:10.200 --> 00:13:12.059 needs to go back to her family because this is too much. 279 00:13:12.059 --> 00:13:15.779 And I really like, one of the things I liked about this episode is 280 00:13:15.779 --> 00:13:20.340 sort of the setting up of that, the doctor talking about, The flux 281 00:13:20.340 --> 00:13:29.039 and the timeless child, I think, you know, Russell paying dues to 282 00:13:29.039 --> 00:13:32.220 that and giving that a bit of weight and giving us, not 283 00:13:32.220 --> 00:13:35.519 necessarily answers, but, you know, I thought we never got the 284 00:13:35.519 --> 00:13:39.600 answers we needed, but here he is putting things in that can carry 285 00:13:39.600 --> 00:13:40.080 forward. 286 00:13:40.139 --> 00:13:44.460 We never found out what the flux did, and it was very much a case 287 00:13:44.460 --> 00:13:47.639 of half the universe wouldn't want us to mourn. 288 00:13:47.700 --> 00:13:50.340 Let's go off and have a holiday on a sentient beach. 289 00:13:50.399 --> 00:13:54.059 You know, like, and Russell makes it land. 290 00:13:54.120 --> 00:13:57.480 He says, all right, half the universe was destroyed and he makes 291 00:13:57.480 --> 00:13:58.919 the doctor feel something about it. 292 00:13:58.980 --> 00:14:01.860 And that was really quite weightless, I think, at the end of 293 00:14:01.860 --> 00:14:02.340 flux. 294 00:14:02.399 --> 00:14:03.960 We really never got that payoff. 295 00:14:04.019 --> 00:14:05.580 And he didn't have to do that. 296 00:14:05.639 --> 00:14:08.700 And I'm kind of glad that he did. 297 00:14:08.759 --> 00:14:12.240 Isn't it funny how the half universe that gets destroyed, never is 298 00:14:12.240 --> 00:14:14.519 Earth's half and always is Trarkan's half. 299 00:14:14.580 --> 00:14:16.259 Yeah, that's good though. 300 00:14:16.559 --> 00:14:20.639 The 25% of the console of the TARNIS that gets jettisoned never 301 00:14:20.639 --> 00:14:21.840 includes the console room either. 302 00:14:21.899 --> 00:14:25.860 So, you know, but I actually think that he's actually making it. 303 00:14:25.919 --> 00:14:28.860 It is all of those things, but I think also, most importantly, he's 304 00:14:28.860 --> 00:14:32.759 making that little statement saying, yes, that all counts. 305 00:14:32.879 --> 00:14:35.159 Yes, I'm not I'm not going to try and pretend that it didn't 306 00:14:35.159 --> 00:14:35.519 happen. 307 00:14:35.580 --> 00:14:38.580 Yes, I'm accepting it and we're going to own it and we're going to 308 00:14:38.580 --> 00:14:38.879 move on. 309 00:14:38.940 --> 00:14:41.039 I think that's what that's about as well. 310 00:14:41.100 --> 00:14:45.419 Russell would never do anything as inelegant as trying to erase 311 00:14:45.419 --> 00:14:48.720 that from Doctor Who's history, but, you know, he's got the he's 312 00:14:48.720 --> 00:14:50.940 got the ability to give it a bit more weight, which is really all 313 00:14:50.940 --> 00:14:51.240 we need. 314 00:14:51.299 --> 00:14:54.360 Yeah, well, no, not necessarily a razor, but just forget about 315 00:14:54.360 --> 00:14:54.539 it. 316 00:14:54.600 --> 00:14:57.120 Like it would be so easy just to sort of, we'll never, we'll just 317 00:14:57.120 --> 00:14:57.600 never talk about it. 318 00:14:57.659 --> 00:14:58.200 You know what I mean? 319 00:14:58.259 --> 00:14:59.039 Yeah. 320 00:14:59.100 --> 00:15:02.460 It's why I think Doctor Who can ever be rebooted because we were 321 00:15:02.460 --> 00:15:03.000 all there. 322 00:15:03.059 --> 00:15:06.059 We saw all the previous episodes, they happened. 323 00:15:06.059 --> 00:15:08.159 You know, we all watched Flux. 324 00:15:08.220 --> 00:15:11.820 It happened in our living room and having the doctor kind of deny 325 00:15:11.820 --> 00:15:15.419 that or just never mention it again is weird, I think, in the 326 00:15:15.419 --> 00:15:16.019 modern era. 327 00:15:16.139 --> 00:15:21.120 It's kind of like, I have no problem with Doctor Who never 328 00:15:21.120 --> 00:15:22.740 mentioning dimensions in time, right? 329 00:15:22.799 --> 00:15:24.539 I have no problem with them never mentioning it. 330 00:15:24.600 --> 00:15:26.100 I do. 331 00:15:26.100 --> 00:15:28.320 But here's the thing. 332 00:15:28.379 --> 00:15:32.820 There's a new adventure that basically says it was a horrible 333 00:15:32.820 --> 00:15:36.539 nightmare the doctor had, you know, after he had a dinner that 334 00:15:36.539 --> 00:15:38.759 disagreed with him and I kind of look at that and I go, that's 335 00:15:38.759 --> 00:15:39.480 mean spirited. 336 00:15:39.539 --> 00:15:42.960 Like it's mean-spirited to the people who love dimensions in 337 00:15:42.960 --> 00:15:43.259 time. 338 00:15:43.320 --> 00:15:49.559 And it's, it's also just kind of like, if, if you want to sort of 339 00:15:49.559 --> 00:15:53.519 say it didn't happen, just don't, yeah, just don't talk about it. 340 00:15:53.580 --> 00:15:58.559 But to say, no, it definitely happened and here's an emotional 341 00:15:58.559 --> 00:16:00.000 payoff from it. 342 00:16:00.120 --> 00:16:02.039 I found that highly effective. 343 00:16:02.700 --> 00:16:07.139 And especially something I loved about it was when Tennant walks 344 00:16:07.139 --> 00:16:12.899 out of that, the doctor has to take a moment to get the rage and 345 00:16:12.899 --> 00:16:15.899 the sorrow out in some way. 346 00:16:15.960 --> 00:16:19.860 And we've seen Tennant do it before in the end of time, but I 347 00:16:19.860 --> 00:16:21.899 think it's so much more effective here because there are no 348 00:16:21.899 --> 00:16:22.200 words. 349 00:16:22.320 --> 00:16:26.100 It is a guttural sobbing. 350 00:16:26.220 --> 00:16:32.220 Anger instead of a speech about how he could, he could have done 351 00:16:32.220 --> 00:16:32.580 more. 352 00:16:32.639 --> 00:16:34.019 He could have done this. 353 00:16:34.080 --> 00:16:37.740 It's it's um, it's visceral and emotional, which I think is very 354 00:16:37.740 --> 00:16:38.879 appropriate for this episode. 355 00:16:39.059 --> 00:16:42.840 I just thought, you know, the episode manages to be about 356 00:16:42.840 --> 00:16:46.440 something more than just sort of scary monsters in a spaceship, and 357 00:16:46.440 --> 00:16:50.159 it is about the doctor and Donna trying to have conversations with 358 00:16:50.159 --> 00:16:54.059 each other about real things and failing because they're speaking 359 00:16:54.059 --> 00:16:55.620 to the duplicate all the time. 360 00:16:55.679 --> 00:16:59.639 And as you said, Todd, there's that thing at the end where they 361 00:16:59.639 --> 00:17:02.879 sort of have that conversation, but Donna can't bring herself to 362 00:17:02.879 --> 00:17:07.680 admit that she knows what went on for the doctor during those 15 363 00:17:07.680 --> 00:17:09.180 years. 364 00:17:09.240 --> 00:17:14.519 Um, and then the TARDIS lands and she says to him, you timed that 365 00:17:14.519 --> 00:17:16.980 in order to avoid an awkward conversation. 366 00:17:17.039 --> 00:17:21.359 And so it's all about them getting together after all of this time 367 00:17:21.359 --> 00:17:23.819 but not managing to properly speak to one another. 368 00:17:23.880 --> 00:17:26.279 And I thought that that was really good and really interesting. 369 00:17:26.339 --> 00:17:29.519 And again, it's refreshing to have an episode that's about 370 00:17:29.519 --> 00:17:33.299 something more than just the space problem that we're encountering 371 00:17:33.299 --> 00:17:33.660 this week. 372 00:17:34.140 --> 00:17:39.900 It, it gives a gravity to the situation, Avatar. 373 00:17:39.960 --> 00:17:45.000 Yes, the natity to the situation and and to this story. 374 00:17:45.059 --> 00:17:47.640 And like, I mean, it would have been so easy to say we're going to 375 00:17:47.640 --> 00:17:50.400 have 3 specials and they're all just going to be whizz, bang, you 376 00:17:50.400 --> 00:17:52.259 know, sort of like dalek, cybermen. 377 00:17:52.319 --> 00:17:52.980 God knows what. 378 00:17:53.039 --> 00:17:57.420 And I think this is, this is why I love this episode so much. 379 00:17:57.480 --> 00:18:02.519 And I loved last week as well, but it just is, I was just, it was 380 00:18:02.519 --> 00:18:07.200 just compelling and it was, there was an interiority to it that I 381 00:18:07.200 --> 00:18:12.000 just really liked and, yeah, it was the right, I think it was the 382 00:18:12.000 --> 00:18:14.160 right direction to go because obviously next week it's going to be 383 00:18:14.160 --> 00:18:16.319 like, well, we'll see. 384 00:18:16.380 --> 00:18:20.039 It's just such a lovely idea, having the doctor and Donna by 385 00:18:20.039 --> 00:18:23.339 themselves facing another doctor and Donna, while they can't face 386 00:18:23.339 --> 00:18:24.720 themselves or each other. 387 00:18:24.839 --> 00:18:27.000 It's just, you know, welcome back Russell. 388 00:18:27.779 --> 00:18:30.900 So let's talk about next week. 389 00:18:30.960 --> 00:18:34.799 I think we are in for a sort of big dumb spectacle of the kind 390 00:18:34.799 --> 00:18:37.799 that I really like, but I'm sort of happy that it's not going to 391 00:18:37.799 --> 00:18:42.779 involve Daleks and Cybermen unless we've all been horribly duped. 392 00:18:42.839 --> 00:18:47.039 How did you feel about the cliffhanger and that scene? 393 00:18:47.519 --> 00:18:54.059 I really love the fact that Donna knows her family so well to know 394 00:18:54.059 --> 00:18:56.819 that the one waiting for her will be willf. 395 00:18:57.000 --> 00:19:00.779 You know, and she's the thing is, she's fine with that. 396 00:19:00.839 --> 00:19:05.160 Like she doesn't say, oh, you know, Rose will come back once every 397 00:19:05.160 --> 00:19:09.119 so often and that's fine, but my grandad, he's going to be there 398 00:19:09.119 --> 00:19:12.359 with a flask and, you know, and there he is and that's beautiful. 399 00:19:12.539 --> 00:19:14.880 As a cliffhanger, you know. 400 00:19:14.940 --> 00:19:17.579 We've had a story, as we've been saying, which is about 401 00:19:17.579 --> 00:19:22.319 communication and failed communication, but also, there's several 402 00:19:22.319 --> 00:19:26.039 times where the doctor and Donna put aside their fear or their 403 00:19:26.039 --> 00:19:29.519 anger to solve the situation and to support each other. 404 00:19:29.519 --> 00:19:34.140 And they get back to earth and people are randomly attacking each 405 00:19:34.140 --> 00:19:41.339 other and there just seems to be this, this, um, rage virus, I 406 00:19:41.339 --> 00:19:45.960 suppose, to use the term from 28 days later, um, going around and 407 00:19:45.960 --> 00:19:51.720 so even the cliffhanger juxtaposes what happens in the episode. 408 00:19:51.779 --> 00:19:55.559 And also we get Bernard Crittens. 409 00:19:55.619 --> 00:19:58.140 The late great Bernard Crittens. 410 00:19:58.200 --> 00:20:01.140 Um, It's, it's, it's perfectly judged. 411 00:20:01.500 --> 00:20:05.160 I think that this is the only scene that we get with him. 412 00:20:05.220 --> 00:20:06.180 Am I right? 413 00:20:06.240 --> 00:20:07.140 Yes. 414 00:20:07.140 --> 00:20:09.660 I think Russell's confirmed that today. 415 00:20:09.660 --> 00:20:13.079 They did write more for him, but after they filmed this, there was 416 00:20:13.079 --> 00:20:15.359 a mutual agreement that that was enough. 417 00:20:15.420 --> 00:20:17.220 He wasn't too much. 418 00:20:17.279 --> 00:20:18.660 But then, yeah. 419 00:20:18.720 --> 00:20:25.680 But apparently Bernard came to the full read through and everyone 420 00:20:25.680 --> 00:20:28.140 loved him and he was entertaining people and what have you, which 421 00:20:28.140 --> 00:20:28.859 is lovely to hear. 422 00:20:28.920 --> 00:20:32.039 And the episode was dedicated to his memory as well, of course. 423 00:20:33.059 --> 00:20:35.099 Simon, what did you think? 424 00:20:35.579 --> 00:20:40.680 I'm optimistic about next week, um, because I, even though, yes 425 00:20:40.680 --> 00:20:42.420 it's going to be, it's going to be that kind of, you know, big 426 00:20:42.420 --> 00:20:44.579 spectacle and lots of things going to happen, but I'm looking 427 00:20:44.579 --> 00:20:46.980 forward to hoping that we're going to have a quite a surreal 428 00:20:46.980 --> 00:20:48.480 episode. 429 00:20:48.539 --> 00:20:52.319 I mean, I don't think this is a spoilery thing to say because it 430 00:20:52.319 --> 00:20:55.079 sort of was on clips and stuff, but there's a sort of a bit, I 431 00:20:55.079 --> 00:20:58.019 think it's a fan made video or something of Neil Patrick Harris 432 00:20:58.019 --> 00:21:02.640 and David Tennant sort of dancing together in the middle of all of 433 00:21:02.640 --> 00:21:04.799 this kind of mayhem and then going off. 434 00:21:04.920 --> 00:21:09.119 It's that's the sort of thing that I think can be very odd and 435 00:21:09.119 --> 00:21:12.180 very effective and I'll be fascinated to see how it unfolds and 436 00:21:12.180 --> 00:21:12.900 I'm very hopeful. 437 00:21:13.019 --> 00:21:17.880 Do you remember before we all saw the celestial toy maker how 438 00:21:17.880 --> 00:21:24.119 intriguing the kind of the concept was, you know, the how surreal 439 00:21:24.119 --> 00:21:27.359 and strange we all thought it was and how great we thought it 440 00:21:27.359 --> 00:21:27.779 would have been? 441 00:21:27.839 --> 00:21:30.960 But that's also because Ian Levine was telling us that it was one 442 00:21:30.960 --> 00:21:33.539 of the best stories ever, remember. that's true. that's right And 443 00:21:33.539 --> 00:21:35.460 so was Jeremy about so many celebration. 444 00:21:35.519 --> 00:21:35.880 Yeah. 445 00:21:35.940 --> 00:21:39.660 It's not, it's just her, it's just unfortunately realised because 446 00:21:39.660 --> 00:21:44.220 it's all too laboured in a studio where you can only, you know, cut 447 00:21:44.220 --> 00:21:45.779 twice in each episode. 448 00:21:45.839 --> 00:21:49.140 I mean, look, there are obviously many other problems with it as 449 00:21:49.140 --> 00:21:49.380 well. 450 00:21:49.440 --> 00:21:52.440 But I think it is the kind of thing that I'm reading, you know, the 451 00:21:52.440 --> 00:21:55.619 one paragraph that was available in the 20th anniversary magazine 452 00:21:55.619 --> 00:21:59.339 special or the doctor, the making of Doctor Who, and being quite 453 00:21:59.339 --> 00:22:01.920 captivated by it, by the sound of it. 454 00:22:01.980 --> 00:22:02.220 Yeah. 455 00:22:02.279 --> 00:22:03.720 I'm sure Russell had the same experience. 456 00:22:03.779 --> 00:22:07.140 I think we can say with some certainty, the next week's episode is 457 00:22:07.140 --> 00:22:09.420 going to be better than the Celestial Toy Maker. 458 00:22:11.759 --> 00:22:15.660 Because I think while the ideas at the heart of Celestial Toy 459 00:22:15.660 --> 00:22:17.039 Maker are quite fun. 460 00:22:17.099 --> 00:22:20.519 The execution is no fun at all, whereas Russell is all about 461 00:22:20.519 --> 00:22:23.579 taking ideas like that and putting interesting spins on them. 462 00:22:23.640 --> 00:22:25.319 So I think it's going to be a very good episode. 463 00:22:25.380 --> 00:22:29.640 I want I want the trilogic game back in it, please, for next 464 00:22:29.640 --> 00:22:29.880 week. 465 00:22:30.000 --> 00:22:31.799 There'll have to be a reference to it. 466 00:22:31.859 --> 00:22:33.000 Surely there has to be a reference to it. 467 00:22:33.059 --> 00:22:35.759 I want to return for the feared dodo doctor. 468 00:22:35.819 --> 00:22:37.980 Oh my god, though. 469 00:22:41.039 --> 00:22:46.259 Seeing Bernard. obviously brought a lump to my throat and it was 470 00:22:46.259 --> 00:22:52.259 just a lovely moment and with everything cliffhanger with the 471 00:22:52.259 --> 00:22:53.099 cliffhanger there. 472 00:22:53.160 --> 00:22:56.640 I am really looking forward to what they're going to do next week 473 00:22:56.640 --> 00:23:01.019 and seeing how David plays off Neil Patrick Harris. 474 00:23:01.079 --> 00:23:03.119 I think that's going to be really intriguing. 475 00:23:03.180 --> 00:23:07.500 And I'm looking forward to seeing the head of unit back. 476 00:23:07.619 --> 00:23:09.480 Oh, yeah, of course. 477 00:23:09.480 --> 00:23:10.559 Kate Stewart. 478 00:23:10.619 --> 00:23:12.420 We're still trying to make Kate Stewart happen. 479 00:23:12.480 --> 00:23:16.200 Yes, I'm still trying to make her happen, right? 480 00:23:16.259 --> 00:23:19.680 I am actually looking forward to seeing her, seeing what she, you 481 00:23:19.680 --> 00:23:20.640 know, yeah. 482 00:23:20.700 --> 00:23:24.539 I can anticipate she'll have a furrowed brow and no emotion. 483 00:23:24.599 --> 00:23:25.019 How about that? 484 00:23:26.160 --> 00:23:29.579 I'm hoping we get Shirley and Bingham back. 485 00:23:29.640 --> 00:23:30.240 Oh, yes. 486 00:23:30.299 --> 00:23:30.960 Yeah, me too. 487 00:23:31.019 --> 00:23:31.859 We do. 488 00:23:31.859 --> 00:23:33.000 We do. 489 00:23:33.059 --> 00:23:33.420 Oh, good. 490 00:23:33.539 --> 00:23:37.680 Yeah, you can see her in that scene where the doctor is on top of 491 00:23:37.680 --> 00:23:40.079 that building and the toy maker is pointing the gun at him. 492 00:23:40.140 --> 00:23:41.400 You can see her in the background. 493 00:23:41.460 --> 00:23:41.940 It's great. 494 00:23:42.000 --> 00:23:42.900 Excellent. 495 00:23:42.960 --> 00:23:43.259 Good. 496 00:23:43.980 --> 00:23:49.200 I thought that Mavity may have come into play with the fake donor 497 00:23:49.200 --> 00:23:53.640 in the TARDIS, right, with her slipping up there, but it didn't. 498 00:23:53.700 --> 00:23:56.640 And I actually predict that it may not actually come into play 499 00:23:56.640 --> 00:23:57.240 next week. 500 00:23:57.299 --> 00:23:59.579 It might be a thing that goes on longer. 501 00:23:59.640 --> 00:24:00.359 Okay. 502 00:24:00.359 --> 00:24:03.779 Which would be quite interesting. 503 00:24:04.019 --> 00:24:05.400 Yes. 504 00:24:05.460 --> 00:24:08.099 The mention of the boss in the Starbeast. 505 00:24:08.160 --> 00:24:13.319 Russell has already confirmed that that's a season 14, possibly 506 00:24:13.319 --> 00:24:14.460 season 15 thing. 507 00:24:14.519 --> 00:24:15.240 Right. 508 00:24:15.660 --> 00:24:19.140 We haven't really talked about the self-destruct mechanism of that 509 00:24:19.140 --> 00:24:22.680 spaceship in, let's just assume it was running at normal speed 510 00:24:22.680 --> 00:24:24.539 rather than the hyper slow down speed. 511 00:24:24.599 --> 00:24:27.599 But basically you set the self-destruct of the spacecraft. 512 00:24:27.660 --> 00:24:30.480 And then this tiny robot walks along this very, very long corridor 513 00:24:30.480 --> 00:24:32.220 to then press a button and then blow the ship up. 514 00:24:32.279 --> 00:24:34.019 I don't know why you don't just press the button yourself. 515 00:24:34.079 --> 00:24:35.759 It's uh, it's interesting. 516 00:24:35.819 --> 00:24:39.539 Well, she, it's very self-out the air, but very effective. 517 00:24:39.539 --> 00:24:41.099 It wasn't available to press the button, I think. 518 00:24:41.099 --> 00:24:43.559 No, but you're operating self-destruct under normal 519 00:24:43.559 --> 00:24:44.099 circumstances. 520 00:24:44.160 --> 00:24:47.519 Yes, again, I suppose what are the normal circumstances that you 521 00:24:47.519 --> 00:24:48.539 self-destruct this ship? 522 00:24:49.440 --> 00:24:51.000 All right. 523 00:24:51.059 --> 00:24:53.640 Well, unless anyone has anything more to add. 524 00:24:53.700 --> 00:24:55.019 I think we might wind up. 525 00:24:55.079 --> 00:24:57.660 I'm going to plug some things. 526 00:24:57.720 --> 00:25:00.779 The flight through entirety series 9 coverage. 527 00:25:00.839 --> 00:25:04.500 Kind of finishes this Sunday with the retrospective. 528 00:25:04.559 --> 00:25:09.839 We have 2 episodes of Startling Barbara Bain. already released 529 00:25:09.839 --> 00:25:12.599 covering the 1st 2 episodes of Space 1999. 530 00:25:13.079 --> 00:25:14.640 She's extra startled. 531 00:25:14.700 --> 00:25:15.900 She's super startled. 532 00:25:15.960 --> 00:25:22.019 We have maximum power powering its way through series 3 of Blake 533 00:25:22.019 --> 00:25:22.440 7. 534 00:25:23.279 --> 00:25:25.140 No one's gonna correct me? 535 00:25:25.200 --> 00:25:25.799 Numbers? 536 00:25:25.859 --> 00:25:26.700 Numbers? 537 00:25:26.700 --> 00:25:29.940 I've given up Nathan. 538 00:25:30.000 --> 00:25:32.339 And I never cared. 539 00:25:32.460 --> 00:25:36.960 And we have untitled Star Trek Project, which will this week, God 540 00:25:36.960 --> 00:25:40.740 willing, be covering Star Trek for the voyage home. 541 00:25:40.859 --> 00:25:43.619 Oh, you deserve a treat. 542 00:25:43.799 --> 00:25:45.539 Yes, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. 543 00:25:45.599 --> 00:25:47.400 We've had a rough run, I tell you what. 544 00:25:47.460 --> 00:25:48.480 I'm quite fond of that. 545 00:25:48.539 --> 00:25:49.500 It's wonderful. 546 00:25:49.559 --> 00:25:52.319 It's really great I confess I haven't seen it this century, so I 547 00:25:52.319 --> 00:25:53.759 might have a different view of it if I watched it again. 548 00:25:53.819 --> 00:25:55.440 It's very period. 549 00:25:55.500 --> 00:26:00.359 Yeah, yeah, just say that. 80s is period drama. 550 00:26:00.420 --> 00:26:01.200 That's right. 551 00:26:01.259 --> 00:26:02.099 All right. 552 00:26:02.160 --> 00:26:05.279 So all that remains is for me to say, until next time, remember 553 00:26:05.279 --> 00:26:08.640 that people being hot is always a good thing. 554 00:26:08.700 --> 00:26:11.220 Thank you very much for listening and good night. 555 00:26:11.279 --> 00:26:12.539 See you soon. 556 00:26:12.599 --> 00:26:13.140 Good night. 557 00:26:13.259 --> 00:26:13.799 Good night.