WEBVTT

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This transcript was created on 2026-05-02 at 15:31:22

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Hello, dear listener, and welcome back to the 2nd great and

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bountiful Human Empire, the only Doctor Who flash cast that's

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still annoyed that Dugadoo didn't win Eurovision on Saturday.

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I'm Nathan.

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I'm Peter.

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I'm Simon, and I'm Todd.

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So we're here tonight to discuss the Interstellar Song contest by

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Juno Dawson, who previously wrote The Good Doctor, a Doctor Who

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spinoff novel featuring the 13th doctor, and a who related podcast

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called Redacted, so she's no stranger to writing Doctor Who, but

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this is her 1st actual proper Doctor Who, and directed by Ben A

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Williams, who I can find out nothing about.

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This is his only episode of Doctor Who, and he has done some other

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telly.

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Has he directed Eurovision?

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And so what we're going to be doing 1st is we're going to go

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around the table and we are going to say what our Eurovision

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experience consists of and what we thought of this week's

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episode.

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And let's start with Simon.

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You mean our real Eurovision experience?

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Right.

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Well, I've been watching Eurovision for some decades now, and I've

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even been to a Eurovision, as has somebody else on this table who

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will get to that.

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So I was fortunate enough to go to the Lisbon, which one, which

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was, I think, was 2017.

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So yeah, I love it.

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I love the songs.

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I love the voting as well is always fabulous.

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Of course you do.

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And I think, of course I do.

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But I think the thing that Eurovision does, which I think I've

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mentioned on other things, maybe Blake 7 type podcasts, and it

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sort of shares it with Doctor Who as well, in that Eurovision is

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both quite calm and incredibly serious at the same time.

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Does this episode achieve that?

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I think it sort of does.

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I think its main floor for me is, look, just the main floor with

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this era, which I can't avoid, which is just the fact that I just

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find it far too lightweight and far too ephemeral for my liking.

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But having said that, look, I was entertained.

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It was fun.

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It ticked a lot of Eurovision boxes, whilst not alienating.

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I'd hope not alienating people who aren't really familiar with

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Eurovision.

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I mean, just, it's a song contest.

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I mean, what more do you need to know?

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So yeah, I mean, you know, sort of middling to okay would be my

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takeaway.

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Yeah, okay.

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What did you think, Peter?

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Oh, and what's your Eurovision experience?

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Well, I've never been to Eurovision, but I've watched religiously

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year in and year out, even though I don't think there's ever been

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a better winner than 1974.

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But, you know, that's another thing. scenes.

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I really quite liked this episode.

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Like, Simon, it's no secret that I haven't been on board with some

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of this era and kind of the way that the show's gone, but if

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you're going to do an episode like this, I think this hits all the

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right buttons and kind of was just wildly entertaining.

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And I have a soft spot in my heart for time and the Rani, and I

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think that's because it's a delicious blend of camp.

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I think putting the Rani and Eurovision into the same story is the

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campus thing possible and I was on board for it.

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Brilliant.

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And Todd, what about you?

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Well, we just want to say that what a wonderful show it was, and

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we've been to Eurovision and watched many years, and you look

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amazing, Nathan, and you've been a terrific host, and so the Bilby

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Effect have to, we have to give our points.

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Our 9.5 points go to the interstellar song contest.

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You were far too quick with that and didn't have enough rubbish

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Todd.

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We also needed to interrupt you while you then paused and said, yes

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yes.

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We're on a time frame, on a time schedule.

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I loved it.

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So I have to say that I have never watched Eurovision song contest

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and I've never been to it.

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And then your gay card.

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Yes, I have, however, been on a podcast episode in which we

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discussed Bang Bang a Boom, which is Doctor Who's previous foray

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into Eurovision territory.

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But, but I have to say that this is everything that I want Doctor

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Who to be.

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This is absolutely Russell doing, what it is that I love about the

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RTD era, and I was 100% on board with it.

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I just thought the mixture of menace and the politics, the

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spectacle, the engagement with media, the campness, the queerness

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of the whole thing, how it looked, just how exciting it was and

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just what a huge spectacle it was.

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This is why I'm here.

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It's an odd thing to say for someone who also enjoys the claws of

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Axos.

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But there we are.

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So I want to talk to those of you who watch Eurovision.

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How well do you think this recreated Eurovision just kind of

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visually, Simon?

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I think, look, it does, because it creates the arena feel.

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It creates the screaming jubilant fans field, especially like all

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the diversity in the crowd.

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It captures in that sort of futuristic doctor kind of way.

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Look, I don't think you can go much further than that without it

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getting to inside the beltway, with the voting and and, I mean

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there is a list of injokes you could make that are a mile long

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that, look, I think it could have made more of.

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All it was really was using the Eurovision or the Interstellar

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Song contest thing as a backdrop and it was very much a backdrop.

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It wasn't really much about it, which is completely

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understandable.

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And I think that's all you can sort of really do.

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I really enjoyed the visual spectacle.

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But the one thing that was missing and which I thought would have

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elevated it quite a lot would have been a waspish commentary.

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You just needed 2 aliens doing a wasp commentary on the whole

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thing.

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Yeah.

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Actually, that's a good point.

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If there was a, if it cut away to a radio booth in one of the, in

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one of the broadcasting booths in one of the things.

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And maybe in that kind of, you know, Arak and Etta kind of way

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they are, they never actually get involved with the rest of the

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story, they just commenting on the whole thing.

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That that would work.

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There you go.

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Well, I think that, you know, you're asking for a lot in an

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episode in the time frame.

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And I think that the whole staging of it is exactly like your

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revision and all the pods with all the contestants and all the

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screaming people and the cannons going off, I think it captured

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that arena and the feeling there admirably.

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And, you know, at some point you're not going to go into the

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voting and all that unless you decide to take the story in that

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direction and it wasn't going in that direction, you know?

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Apparently, the original premise was summarised as Die Hard at

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Eurovision.

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And I think that that's not quite what we went for. think that's a

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bit of a stretch.

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Yeah, and also I saw the 2013 entry, Josh Dubuvie from the UK.

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I saw someone diehard at Eurovision already.

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That happens.

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But certainly Eurovision is the backdrop and it is the status quo

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that we return to after the adventurers ended and the, you know

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the problem has been solved.

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The villain has been defeated. and Eurovision reasserts itself at

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the very end which I thought was really terribly good.

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And I just think, you know, this is where all the money has gone

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as well.

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The Disney effects wall or the volume or wherever we're shooting

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these things.

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Like there are some shots where it's very apparent that there's

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some, you know, like a rows of extras around the stage, but and

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the rest of them are clearly just animated on the effects wall.

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But the effects will look so stunning.

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I mean, it looks so good that those scenes just look magnificent.

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I don't think the show has been a bigger spectacle than this.

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I thought it kind of, it leaned into the, for want of a better

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term, Disneyification of effects recently, where things look very

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glossy and very like other...

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That's right.

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And if you're going to have an episode like this, it suits that

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aesthetic, I think, in a way that something like the well or boom

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maybe doesn't.

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Yeah, I mean, I think boom, you know, has a very different

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aesthetic and, you know, every episode looks kind of wildly

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different.

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But just the sort of scale of the special effects, the fact that

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they were able to kind of credibly recreate such an enormous

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space.

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I thought was really quite, quite amazing.

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The other thing that I thought was really particularly good was

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the fact that there was a gay couple, one of whom was hugely into

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Eurovision and the other one who wasn't, and just the fact that, um

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you know, the kind of gay fandom, the sort of 50 something

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Eurovision gay fandom that has some level of representation here

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on this podcast.

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Some.

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Can I say?

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No, but that's the thing.

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Can I say walking around Lisbon, which is not a big city.

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I mean, we, and I say we, as in our demographic, totally took that

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city over for that week.

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It was ridiculous.

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You would have thought that you were in the middle of some

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ridiculous gay pride event for the over 50s.

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Because the other thing I was going to say is I actually I

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actually think that the thing that doesn't quite ring true because

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do you know how much these tickets cost, Nathan?

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You do not, if one of, if one of the 2 of you aren't that into it

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the other one just doesn't go.

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That's right.

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Although he did get the tickets.

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I got tickets because he was in, yeah, yeah, yeah.

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So he did that's how he got the posh tickets.

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Back to the private suite.

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Yeah, that's right.

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But someone also noted, of course, that it was the 250 something

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gays who got to see the Rani by generator as well.

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And having her walk off the stage after that and say, you know, out

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of the way, boys.

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I've got a date to catch.

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I just think was absolutely perfect as well.

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Well, let's not forget that this is the same Rani who had his her

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companion, Shag, in dimensions in time.

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And so she quite likes, she quite likes having a insequious man

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around.

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That's right Yeah, he's almost a 50-something these days.

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I would think.

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So let's talk a bit about our villains and their plot.

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So we have the Hellions who are represented by our main villain

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and Wynn.

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How do we think their plan worked or what did we think of the

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scale of it or what did we think of the villains themselves?

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I thought they were nicely drawn and I thought they had good

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motivation.

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I was all on board for it as it got explained about what happened

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to their planet and this corporation that had, you know, who was

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sponsoring the whole event, and I thought he was extremely good

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especially at the end when he was sitting there just reacting to

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what was going on in the final song, and it was tragic at the same

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time, you know?

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I really liked them.

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You know, I didn't think they were OTT or underdrawn.

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That was Freddie Fox from the RTD series Cucumber from the mid

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norties.

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Oh, and being very good in this, like he was in that. and I agree

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with Todd.

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I liked their liked the sobriety of their scenes.

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They didn't lean into the camp.

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He wasn't a camp villain. against a camp backdrop.

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I thought that was quite good.

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Yeah, um, I think giving him giving him the credit as being in

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cucumber, unbelievably undersells the magnificence of this actor.

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He is an extremely, extremely qualified actor.

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And the fact that, unfortunately, everybody's been talking about

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virtually everything else about the episode and not Freddie Fox

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who is an incredible get as a guest star.

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He is top top draw and very, very impressive theatre credits.

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He's from an impeccable theatre family with Edward Foxes, his

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father, and he's his mother.

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And I thought he was brilliant.

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And he and his sidekick, I'm apologised for not remembering

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characters names and so on, but they do save the episode for me.

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He is actually taking it incredibly seriously in terms of what the

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character is, what the character is doing.

248
00:12:34.139 --> 00:12:36.179
And I think that's really, really good.

249
00:12:36.240 --> 00:12:37.500
Simon, you're right.

250
00:12:37.559 --> 00:12:39.840
I think he was a get along the lines of if they'd gotten like Luke

251
00:12:39.840 --> 00:12:43.139
or Harry Treadaway or maybe when they got Neil Patrick Harris

252
00:12:43.139 --> 00:12:44.340
years of that standard.

253
00:12:44.399 --> 00:12:45.539
Exactly, exactly.

254
00:12:45.600 --> 00:12:46.139
Yeah.

255
00:12:46.139 --> 00:12:49.740
Probably cheaper because he's a British actor, so therefore he is

256
00:12:49.740 --> 00:12:51.539
much cheaper than Hollywood actor, yes.

257
00:12:51.600 --> 00:12:56.039
I mean, the idea is, of course, that they aren't camp and they

258
00:12:56.039 --> 00:12:56.940
mustn't be camp.

259
00:12:57.059 --> 00:12:59.159
And so, you know, he's got the mullet.

260
00:12:59.220 --> 00:13:00.480
He's got a camoustache.

261
00:13:00.539 --> 00:13:02.399
He looks a bit grubby and stuff like that.

262
00:13:02.460 --> 00:13:07.799
So what you really have is the invasion of a camp space, by this

263
00:13:07.799 --> 00:13:12.960
terrible, credible villain, and then the reassertion of the camp

264
00:13:12.960 --> 00:13:14.940
space once he's been defeated.

265
00:13:15.000 --> 00:13:18.179
You know, so playing at cab is exactly the wrong thing to do.

266
00:13:18.240 --> 00:13:21.539
And of course, you've got Archie coming in later to play at camp

267
00:13:21.539 --> 00:13:24.059
along with Anita, you know, at the end of the episode.

268
00:13:24.120 --> 00:13:27.179
So it would have been kind of a very bad call.

269
00:13:27.240 --> 00:13:29.039
People have.

270
00:13:29.100 --> 00:13:31.080
It would have been too much, even for you, Nathan, I suspect.

271
00:13:31.139 --> 00:13:34.320
But the contrast they needed to be the contrast.

272
00:13:34.379 --> 00:13:35.399
And that's what works so well.

273
00:13:35.519 --> 00:13:36.120
Yeah.

274
00:13:36.179 --> 00:13:41.879
I think I think 2 people mentioned that, of course, his plan is to

275
00:13:41.879 --> 00:13:46.080
do what the doctor was going to do in parting of the ways, which

276
00:13:46.080 --> 00:13:51.299
was to use a Delta Wave broadcast to wipe out 1000000s of people

277
00:13:51.299 --> 00:13:55.740
on Earth, 1000000s of Daleks on Earth, and then the doctor decides

278
00:13:55.740 --> 00:13:56.580
not to do that.

279
00:13:56.639 --> 00:14:00.600
But I think that Russell deliberately calls it the Delta way for

280
00:14:00.600 --> 00:14:01.139
that reason.

281
00:14:01.200 --> 00:14:04.860
And so that's one of the reasons why the doctor, I think, is

282
00:14:04.860 --> 00:14:09.480
reminded of, you know, his own planet, because he was in that

283
00:14:09.480 --> 00:14:09.840
position.

284
00:14:09.899 --> 00:14:13.799
So are you telling me that he was going to kill Nissa when you put

285
00:14:13.799 --> 00:14:15.419
a delta wave augmentator on ahead?

286
00:14:15.480 --> 00:14:16.259
was, yeah, yeah.

287
00:14:16.320 --> 00:14:17.759
It's a very low...

288
00:14:17.759 --> 00:14:18.480
It was an augment.

289
00:14:18.480 --> 00:14:19.980
It was an augmented deal.

290
00:14:20.039 --> 00:14:21.539
It makes all the difference.

291
00:14:21.600 --> 00:14:24.539
It's like the difference between dioxin and metadioxide.

292
00:14:24.659 --> 00:14:25.139
Yes, exactly.

293
00:14:27.419 --> 00:14:30.360
Yeah, like I thought he was really great.

294
00:14:30.419 --> 00:14:34.139
The scale of what he did was really extraordinary.

295
00:14:34.200 --> 00:14:38.220
And when we talk 30000000000 people, I mean, like the numbers are

296
00:14:38.220 --> 00:14:38.759
massive.

297
00:14:38.759 --> 00:14:40.440
And I think there's a good reason for that.

298
00:14:40.559 --> 00:14:41.700
And therefore meaningless.

299
00:14:41.820 --> 00:14:42.840
But it needs to be.

300
00:14:42.899 --> 00:14:44.879
If you're going to have all those cultures and all those planets

301
00:14:44.879 --> 00:14:47.279
if there are 7000000000 people on Earth at the moment, you have to

302
00:14:47.279 --> 00:14:50.519
not buy that out to all the planets in the known galaxy or

303
00:14:50.519 --> 00:14:51.419
whatever, but who cares?

304
00:14:51.480 --> 00:14:53.940
it's a big number Well, I don't know if he did actually.

305
00:14:54.000 --> 00:14:57.360
Like it should have just been the 1000s of spectators who were

306
00:14:57.360 --> 00:14:58.139
there at Eurovision.

307
00:14:58.200 --> 00:14:59.460
That would have been a big enough get for me.

308
00:14:59.519 --> 00:15:00.659
Well, me too.

309
00:15:00.720 --> 00:15:05.039
I mean, that's one of the things that I find just, I mean, this is

310
00:15:05.039 --> 00:15:07.320
a much longer podcast to talk about that, but that's one of the

311
00:15:07.320 --> 00:15:09.960
many things that if K, if we're going to say 2 trillion.

312
00:15:10.019 --> 00:15:11.399
We are going to say 2 trillion. lets get on with it.

313
00:15:11.460 --> 00:15:14.039
But yeah, you're absolutely right. that and the fact that the 100

314
00:15:14.039 --> 00:15:18.059
or 1000 people in the arena being sent off into the bubble or

315
00:15:18.059 --> 00:15:20.279
whatever the hell it is and then they can all get rescued, again

316
00:15:20.279 --> 00:15:22.139
is a little bit tiresome.

317
00:15:22.200 --> 00:15:24.059
I think there are other ways of creating peril.

318
00:15:24.120 --> 00:15:27.360
If I dare I suggest that all this stuff, whether they're CGI

319
00:15:27.360 --> 00:15:30.419
people disappearing up into the sky, all the 200000000 people out

320
00:15:30.419 --> 00:15:33.720
there, it is still essentially merely word peril.

321
00:15:33.779 --> 00:15:36.659
And I think it doesn't really make me feel anything.

322
00:15:37.080 --> 00:15:40.320
Well, except WordPeril is when they just describe it.

323
00:15:40.379 --> 00:15:41.879
And what you saw was really...

324
00:15:41.879 --> 00:15:43.080
Well, they just described you.

325
00:15:43.139 --> 00:15:47.100
No, no, that's word peril, but we actually see the people lift off

326
00:15:47.100 --> 00:15:48.539
into space.

327
00:15:48.600 --> 00:15:49.980
And that looks pretty impressive.

328
00:15:50.039 --> 00:15:53.580
Like, I don't think that you can complain that that's just word

329
00:15:53.580 --> 00:15:54.059
peril.

330
00:15:54.120 --> 00:15:56.220
And also, I think Todd will agree on this.

331
00:15:56.279 --> 00:15:57.059
Some of them needed to die.

332
00:15:57.120 --> 00:15:58.799
We didn't want all of them to live.

333
00:15:58.860 --> 00:15:59.940
Yes.

334
00:16:00.000 --> 00:16:00.779
Thank you for that Peter.

335
00:16:00.840 --> 00:16:02.519
No, I'm going to say this.

336
00:16:02.580 --> 00:16:05.820
I was absolutely aghast when all those people said the roof went

337
00:16:05.820 --> 00:16:09.840
up and I thought it was extremely compelling visual and it really

338
00:16:09.840 --> 00:16:12.059
got me into totally different to you.

339
00:16:12.120 --> 00:16:13.799
It totally got me into the gravity of everything.

340
00:16:13.860 --> 00:16:18.600
The thing is this, the 10000000000 people, that's the thing that I

341
00:16:18.600 --> 00:16:19.620
didn't quite buy.

342
00:16:19.679 --> 00:16:22.080
And I thought, are you using that as a motivation for the doctor

343
00:16:22.080 --> 00:16:25.320
to get so angry and so, you know, just totally out of control.

344
00:16:25.320 --> 00:16:26.879
And that's part of the episode.

345
00:16:26.940 --> 00:16:30.659
I really didn't like how far that he went or the fact that Belinda

346
00:16:30.659 --> 00:16:35.100
didn't pull him up enough when she saw him at the end, that's

347
00:16:35.100 --> 00:16:36.899
where I wanted there to be something more.

348
00:16:36.960 --> 00:16:39.899
I thought, sure, he executed it absolutely brilliantly.

349
00:16:39.960 --> 00:16:43.200
But I just thought it went too far in that respect.

350
00:16:43.320 --> 00:16:47.759
So I think one of the reasons that the killing had to be this

351
00:16:47.759 --> 00:16:52.799
scale is that what we have is we have 2 approaches to the

352
00:16:52.799 --> 00:16:55.740
oppression of the planet Hellia.

353
00:16:55.799 --> 00:17:01.799
And one is to kill a lot of people and one is to make people aware

354
00:17:01.799 --> 00:17:02.340
some other way.

355
00:17:02.399 --> 00:17:04.500
And so there's 2 transmissions that happen.

356
00:17:04.559 --> 00:17:07.440
The Delta Wave transmission, and then the transmission of that

357
00:17:07.440 --> 00:17:11.039
song at the very end, that's sung by Cora.

358
00:17:11.099 --> 00:17:16.319
And I think that one of the things with Doctor Who villains is

359
00:17:16.319 --> 00:17:18.660
that often they are in the right.

360
00:17:18.720 --> 00:17:20.819
They have a point.

361
00:17:20.819 --> 00:17:23.640
And that's the true thing about the villain because the villain

362
00:17:23.640 --> 00:17:27.059
stands against the status quo and sometimes we need to stand

363
00:17:27.059 --> 00:17:30.539
against the status quo because often the status quo is bad, right?

364
00:17:30.599 --> 00:17:34.200
And so in this situation, what we have is 2 ways of dealing with

365
00:17:34.200 --> 00:17:34.440
it.

366
00:17:34.440 --> 00:17:38.400
If you just said that any level of political violence was wrong or

367
00:17:38.400 --> 00:17:42.420
any level of protest or inconvenience or something is wrong and

368
00:17:42.420 --> 00:17:45.480
what we should really do is sing songs in order to affect

369
00:17:45.480 --> 00:17:48.660
political change, I think that that would be a problem.

370
00:17:48.720 --> 00:17:52.140
And so you have to make him this sort of catastrophic mass

371
00:17:52.140 --> 00:17:56.579
murderer in order to justify the doctor's reaction to him.

372
00:17:56.640 --> 00:17:58.380
And my favourite moment.

373
00:17:58.500 --> 00:18:03.059
I think is where he starts weeping when he hears the song because

374
00:18:03.059 --> 00:18:07.079
it suggested to me that he'd really forgotten the oppression of

375
00:18:07.079 --> 00:18:10.140
his planet and the picture that that song painted and he was being

376
00:18:10.140 --> 00:18:13.319
reminded of it because he just got obsessed with his plan to kill

377
00:18:13.319 --> 00:18:15.420
a whole bunch of people at Eurovision.

378
00:18:15.480 --> 00:18:20.039
And so, like, I thought that the scale of it, you know, it

379
00:18:20.039 --> 00:18:24.539
literally makes kid a worse villain than kind of the daleks or, you

380
00:18:24.539 --> 00:18:27.599
know, I guess, you know, the scale of it.

381
00:18:27.660 --> 00:18:30.779
I guess Davros was going to destroy all of reality with a reality

382
00:18:30.779 --> 00:18:34.740
bomb and that's more than 30000000000 people, but, you know, just

383
00:18:34.740 --> 00:18:37.619
the scale of it, I think, was warranted for that reason.

384
00:18:37.680 --> 00:18:41.400
It sort of puts a kid on a level with Anthony Ainley and

385
00:18:41.400 --> 00:18:41.940
Lagopolis.

386
00:18:42.000 --> 00:18:43.440
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

387
00:18:43.500 --> 00:18:44.880
Entropy increases.

388
00:18:44.940 --> 00:18:47.160
I mean look, I don't think it really matters how big the number

389
00:18:47.160 --> 00:18:47.460
is.

390
00:18:47.519 --> 00:18:49.980
I mean, it's just a very Russell T. Davies thing to say 2

391
00:18:49.980 --> 00:18:50.460
trillion.

392
00:18:50.579 --> 00:18:52.019
I mean that's just the kind of thing he does.

393
00:18:52.079 --> 00:18:54.960
He always magnifies things by 1000 because that's what he does.

394
00:18:55.019 --> 00:18:58.319
What I think was, you're absolutely right, Nathan, is that he'd

395
00:18:58.319 --> 00:19:01.559
remembering his, he's emotional, he's made emotional by the song

396
00:19:01.559 --> 00:19:04.500
because he has forgotten why he's been doing this.

397
00:19:04.559 --> 00:19:06.299
It has just become an act of revenge.

398
00:19:06.359 --> 00:19:09.660
I do, one of the things I do like about the episode is this

399
00:19:09.660 --> 00:19:13.740
message about the fact that there, there is revenge or there is a

400
00:19:13.740 --> 00:19:15.960
way to actually get change.

401
00:19:15.960 --> 00:19:20.819
And Cora is trying to achieve change, whereas all kid is trying to

402
00:19:20.819 --> 00:19:26.279
do is to avenge the, the, the crimes of the past.

403
00:19:26.339 --> 00:19:33.119
I think the whole thing is framed very shallowly is my main...

404
00:19:33.180 --> 00:19:36.539
No, but the whole thing in terms of the whole, the whole problem

405
00:19:36.539 --> 00:19:40.859
is so shallow that I'm sort of not really engaged by it.

406
00:19:40.920 --> 00:19:42.779
I'm just enjoying what's happening.

407
00:19:42.839 --> 00:19:45.420
But nevertheless, I think that's an important message that we come

408
00:19:45.420 --> 00:19:48.539
away with is that there is no, like even, even harming one person

409
00:19:48.539 --> 00:19:49.799
is one person too many.

410
00:19:49.859 --> 00:19:50.640
Possibly.

411
00:19:50.700 --> 00:19:51.960
No, not possibly, definitely.

412
00:19:52.019 --> 00:19:53.819
Yeah, I'm not convinced about that.

413
00:19:53.880 --> 00:19:56.700
I think that political violence is unthinkable until it's

414
00:19:56.700 --> 00:19:57.180
necessary.

415
00:19:57.240 --> 00:20:03.119
But the thing is, though, that she's inspired by them as well.

416
00:20:03.180 --> 00:20:04.380
Do you know what I mean?

417
00:20:04.440 --> 00:20:07.319
Because she's been hiding and not doing anything and he actually

418
00:20:07.319 --> 00:20:10.920
tells her, you know, Wynn says, what have you been doing?

419
00:20:10.980 --> 00:20:13.200
You've been doing nothing you've just been hiding.

420
00:20:13.259 --> 00:20:16.799
And so it's that that inspires her to do something as well.

421
00:20:16.859 --> 00:20:20.039
So it is a little bit more complicated, I think, than that.

422
00:20:20.099 --> 00:20:23.160
And that makes that song at the end so powerful.

423
00:20:23.160 --> 00:20:24.660
And her performance there.

424
00:20:24.720 --> 00:20:26.579
I just thought I was so moved, you know?

425
00:20:26.640 --> 00:20:29.579
I'm really grateful that Russell didn't write any lyrics for it

426
00:20:29.579 --> 00:20:33.720
because he's a terrible lyricist. dreadful.

427
00:20:33.779 --> 00:20:38.579
So it's like it's slightly bad that it's like aliens language or

428
00:20:38.579 --> 00:20:40.799
whatever, but she sings beautifully.

429
00:20:40.859 --> 00:20:44.039
It's really well done, and I think the montage of images is pretty

430
00:20:44.039 --> 00:20:44.640
great as well.

431
00:20:44.759 --> 00:20:48.539
I mean, he did write the lyrics, I think, for the Dugadoos, and I

432
00:20:48.539 --> 00:20:49.140
was on board for that.

433
00:20:50.220 --> 00:20:52.259
All the songs were great.

434
00:20:52.319 --> 00:20:54.180
They were all so Eurovision.

435
00:20:54.240 --> 00:20:58.380
Yeah, they were Eurovision because they had a balance between the

436
00:20:58.380 --> 00:21:00.720
Kitch songs and then you have Chorus Song, which is kind of a

437
00:21:00.720 --> 00:21:03.240
serious song and that is what you have at Eurovision.

438
00:21:03.299 --> 00:21:04.740
You do have the whole gamut there.

439
00:21:04.799 --> 00:21:08.339
Look, I can't get emotional at that final song is because they

440
00:21:08.339 --> 00:21:10.980
haven't set up a situation which makes me emotional because it's

441
00:21:10.980 --> 00:21:13.619
also one dimensional is my issue.

442
00:21:13.680 --> 00:21:14.279
Unfortunately.

443
00:21:14.339 --> 00:21:20.400
Freddie Fox's is doing his best to give it gravitas, which he does

444
00:21:20.400 --> 00:21:22.079
but that doesn't make me weep.

445
00:21:22.079 --> 00:21:25.319
Can we talk about the doctor torturing him?

446
00:21:25.380 --> 00:21:28.799
Um, I don't think that's right.

447
00:21:28.859 --> 00:21:34.920
I think it's right if only if there is some kind of regret

448
00:21:34.920 --> 00:21:38.579
afterwards. consequence for that or regret and maybe it's going to

449
00:21:38.579 --> 00:21:42.660
come in the next 2 episodes. it better because if it doesn't, I

450
00:21:42.660 --> 00:21:46.680
think basically it makes him killing shockeye or throwing 2 guys

451
00:21:46.680 --> 00:21:51.180
into an acid bath in vengeance on Varos look very, very mild by

452
00:21:51.180 --> 00:21:51.779
comparison.

453
00:21:51.839 --> 00:21:54.180
He does kill Shockeye, though.

454
00:21:54.240 --> 00:21:56.400
And the 2 people in the acid, but he doesn't.

455
00:21:56.400 --> 00:22:00.119
Nevertheless, not with that kind of glee.

456
00:22:00.180 --> 00:22:03.539
The way it is portrayed is that he is almost getting a pleasure

457
00:22:03.539 --> 00:22:06.900
out of the electric shots that he's giving Kit, and I think we

458
00:22:06.900 --> 00:22:07.440
have a problem.

459
00:22:07.500 --> 00:22:10.980
Yes, and also when he's facing off Shockeye, Shockeye is trying to

460
00:22:10.980 --> 00:22:12.119
kill him at the same time.

461
00:22:12.180 --> 00:22:16.079
And so, whereas in this, it's, the doctor was, that's right.

462
00:22:16.140 --> 00:22:19.079
He was taking enjoyment out of basically getting his own revenge.

463
00:22:19.140 --> 00:22:20.640
That was my problem.

464
00:22:20.700 --> 00:22:21.480
Yeah.

465
00:22:21.539 --> 00:22:23.400
And I think, well, Russell does do that.

466
00:22:23.460 --> 00:22:25.380
Like Russell problematizes the doctor.

467
00:22:25.440 --> 00:22:28.259
Look at the doctor's reaction at the end of Family of Blood.

468
00:22:28.319 --> 00:22:31.920
Like, that just seems to be this extraordinary weird overreaction

469
00:22:31.920 --> 00:22:36.779
where he, you know, becomes this kind of mythic terror who wreaks

470
00:22:36.779 --> 00:22:41.519
horrific revenge on these aliens who are, you know, caught.

471
00:22:41.579 --> 00:22:42.420
They've been defeated.

472
00:22:42.480 --> 00:22:44.819
And Russell does do that.

473
00:22:44.880 --> 00:22:46.500
And I think, I think Moffatt does.

474
00:22:46.559 --> 00:22:47.940
So it's one of the things different there.

475
00:22:48.000 --> 00:22:49.140
Well, I don't know.

476
00:22:49.200 --> 00:22:51.059
It's differently betrayed in human nature.

477
00:22:51.119 --> 00:22:51.420
Yeah.

478
00:22:51.420 --> 00:22:52.619
Yeah.

479
00:22:52.680 --> 00:22:56.579
It is differently portrayed, but we're used to it now after all of

480
00:22:56.579 --> 00:22:56.940
this time.

481
00:22:57.000 --> 00:22:58.319
This is mine to it.

482
00:22:58.380 --> 00:22:59.099
Well, I'm used to it.

483
00:22:59.160 --> 00:23:00.599
I wasn't used to it watching that.

484
00:23:00.660 --> 00:23:01.799
That's not the doctor.

485
00:23:01.859 --> 00:23:03.240
Um, it was.

486
00:23:03.299 --> 00:23:06.299
I mean, you do get a hint of it at the end of Runaway Bride, where

487
00:23:06.299 --> 00:23:10.079
Donna has to tell the doctor, we can stop now.

488
00:23:10.140 --> 00:23:14.819
That's, but again, I know it shouldn't be different, but it is

489
00:23:14.819 --> 00:23:18.119
because you're talking about all of these monsters, these

490
00:23:18.119 --> 00:23:18.660
spiders.

491
00:23:18.720 --> 00:23:22.859
Here you're talking about torturing a single person.

492
00:23:22.859 --> 00:23:25.740
And I think the visual of that is very different.

493
00:23:25.799 --> 00:23:31.079
And also, I think that if you have the doctor inflicting pain on

494
00:23:31.079 --> 00:23:33.480
someone, it's no different for him going up and slapping someone

495
00:23:33.480 --> 00:23:37.200
in the face, which is, you know, you would equally sort of think

496
00:23:37.200 --> 00:23:37.799
what are you doing?

497
00:23:37.859 --> 00:23:41.819
Whereas the mythic revenge, the mythic sort of punishments that he

498
00:23:41.819 --> 00:23:45.359
meets out at the end of family of blood, our mythic for a reason.

499
00:23:45.420 --> 00:23:48.180
It's someone who's trapped in a mirror.

500
00:23:48.240 --> 00:23:50.640
It's someone who's...

501
00:23:50.700 --> 00:23:53.700
Yeah, they're abstract punishments as opposed to actually causing

502
00:23:53.700 --> 00:23:54.359
pain somebody.

503
00:23:54.420 --> 00:23:55.200
Yeah.

504
00:23:55.200 --> 00:23:55.859
Yeah.

505
00:23:55.859 --> 00:23:57.000
All right.

506
00:23:57.059 --> 00:24:01.859
So, uh, this is the big moment though, and it is the end.

507
00:24:01.920 --> 00:24:05.400
So those of you who switched off the moment the closing credits

508
00:24:05.400 --> 00:24:05.759
came on.

509
00:24:05.819 --> 00:24:06.839
You're idiot.

510
00:24:06.900 --> 00:24:08.940
Yeah, you should really probably read that.

511
00:24:09.000 --> 00:24:11.460
You actually do that with television.

512
00:24:12.839 --> 00:24:19.259
So, Mrs. Fland is the last person to be rescued by Gary and Mike.

513
00:24:19.319 --> 00:24:23.460
Her twin brain stem has been frozen, which apparently is fatal for

514
00:24:23.460 --> 00:24:29.819
time, ladies, and she by generates in front of us, who didn't know

515
00:24:29.819 --> 00:24:33.119
or didn't think that Mrs. Flood was the Rani.

516
00:24:33.180 --> 00:24:34.980
I thought she was going to be Susan.

517
00:24:35.039 --> 00:24:37.079
Yeah, I assumed she was going to end up being Susan.

518
00:24:37.200 --> 00:24:38.579
I didn't really know.

519
00:24:38.640 --> 00:24:41.220
Like, I mean, I thought, okay, maybe they could go that way, who

520
00:24:41.220 --> 00:24:41.640
could it be?

521
00:24:41.700 --> 00:24:45.960
Maybe living in a dream world, but I just didn't know for sure.

522
00:24:46.079 --> 00:24:46.740
You know?

523
00:24:46.799 --> 00:24:50.220
Yeah, I theorised on this podcast that she had something to do

524
00:24:50.220 --> 00:24:53.400
with the pantheon because of her ability to step outside the kind

525
00:24:53.400 --> 00:24:55.200
of frame of the TV show.

526
00:24:55.259 --> 00:25:00.900
But season 8 taught us that sometimes the obvious solution to the

527
00:25:00.900 --> 00:25:02.579
mystery is the best one.

528
00:25:03.599 --> 00:25:07.920
And that's definitely, I think, what's happening here after years

529
00:25:07.920 --> 00:25:11.940
and years and years of, you know, every major female villain.

530
00:25:11.940 --> 00:25:14.759
Oh, my God.

531
00:25:14.819 --> 00:25:16.440
Ladies, actually.

532
00:25:16.500 --> 00:25:21.240
I looked up Archie Punjabi's IMDb and she's done an episode of

533
00:25:21.240 --> 00:25:23.940
Bojack Horseman and an episode of Brooklyn Nine-Nine.

534
00:25:24.000 --> 00:25:27.660
I don't think I've seen her in anything, so can anyone tell me

535
00:25:27.660 --> 00:25:29.279
what I should expect?

536
00:25:29.759 --> 00:25:33.839
Utter fabulousness in the good wife as Kalinda.

537
00:25:33.900 --> 00:25:34.859
Yeah.

538
00:25:34.859 --> 00:25:38.339
She's just got an incredibly great level of performance and I can

539
00:25:38.339 --> 00:25:40.859
see, I can see she's going to be great.

540
00:25:40.920 --> 00:25:44.099
She is, I think, a spectacular and perfect piece of casting for

541
00:25:44.099 --> 00:25:44.700
the Rani.

542
00:25:44.759 --> 00:25:46.140
She gets it I think.

543
00:25:46.259 --> 00:25:47.160
Yeah, she gets it.

544
00:25:47.220 --> 00:25:48.420
She looks great.

545
00:25:48.480 --> 00:25:49.740
She acts great.

546
00:25:49.799 --> 00:25:53.279
She sounds great, and we get to keep Mrs. Flood as well, and I

547
00:25:53.279 --> 00:25:56.640
like the fact that a previous incarnation of the Rani isn't quite

548
00:25:56.640 --> 00:26:00.660
as evil or scientific, you know, like the different incarnations

549
00:26:00.660 --> 00:26:01.319
of the doctor.

550
00:26:01.380 --> 00:26:03.480
So yeah, I'm all on board for it.

551
00:26:03.539 --> 00:26:05.339
Can I add something to you, child?

552
00:26:05.400 --> 00:26:06.420
When you said she looks great.

553
00:26:06.480 --> 00:26:07.200
She sounds great.

554
00:26:07.259 --> 00:26:09.599
Even better, she walks great.

555
00:26:09.660 --> 00:26:11.700
There's something...

556
00:26:11.759 --> 00:26:14.220
And her hair is to die for.

557
00:26:15.180 --> 00:26:19.380
Because she has she has to have perfectly contemporaneous hair for

558
00:26:19.380 --> 00:26:22.500
us to be to be the Rani, really, because that's what you sort of

559
00:26:22.500 --> 00:26:24.000
get with the KJ Mara, too.

560
00:26:24.119 --> 00:26:28.559
Can I very humbly fulfil my role and pour just one glass of cold

561
00:26:28.559 --> 00:26:29.579
water on all this?

562
00:26:29.640 --> 00:26:30.180
Yeah.

563
00:26:30.180 --> 00:26:33.960
And that is that, look, wonderful oaks are riding.

564
00:26:34.019 --> 00:26:34.980
Oh, great, wonderful.

565
00:26:35.039 --> 00:26:36.299
Fabulous casting.

566
00:26:36.359 --> 00:26:38.160
You know, I'll watch it and enjoy it.

567
00:26:38.220 --> 00:26:43.200
But I think it's all a bit back of the napkin sort of plotting

568
00:26:43.200 --> 00:26:43.440
here.

569
00:26:43.500 --> 00:26:47.880
Like, if we're going to say the Rani is not evil, but this amoral

570
00:26:47.880 --> 00:26:50.700
scientist person who's got a mission, everything that we've kind

571
00:26:50.700 --> 00:26:53.400
of seen of Mrs. Flood up to this point is just sort of nothing

572
00:26:53.400 --> 00:26:53.940
like that.

573
00:26:54.000 --> 00:26:57.539
And it's not because, you know, Derek Jacoby kind of way, you know

574
00:26:57.539 --> 00:27:00.000
she's popped her consciousness into a watch.

575
00:27:00.059 --> 00:27:03.059
She's supposed to have been the Rani all along.

576
00:27:03.119 --> 00:27:05.819
And that's the only thing that's kind of a bit, it's one of those

577
00:27:05.819 --> 00:27:08.460
things where it's taking the piss a little bit too much as to what

578
00:27:08.460 --> 00:27:10.319
you can do with red herrings and so on.

579
00:27:10.380 --> 00:27:13.140
That's my glass of cold water, cold water.

580
00:27:13.200 --> 00:27:18.720
I think the Brani is actually really an a moral scientist thing

581
00:27:18.720 --> 00:27:21.839
really shot its bolt in 1987, frankly.

582
00:27:22.380 --> 00:27:26.759
She was going to destroy the universe and take the earth back to

583
00:27:26.759 --> 00:27:29.160
the Cretaceous Age and like all of this.

584
00:27:29.220 --> 00:27:30.480
Because she's an amoral scientist.

585
00:27:30.720 --> 00:27:32.880
Because she wanted an outcome.

586
00:27:32.940 --> 00:27:33.599
She wasn't doing that.

587
00:27:33.599 --> 00:27:36.240
The master does that because he wants to see the spectacle of the

588
00:27:36.240 --> 00:27:41.099
earth being destroyed or whatever might happen on the time in the

589
00:27:41.099 --> 00:27:43.799
Rani planet for his name escapes me.

590
00:27:43.859 --> 00:27:46.859
The Kershaw, the Kershaw, the Kershaw, the Kershaw, all be dead.

591
00:27:46.920 --> 00:27:49.859
But the point is, she wants to do something in both of those

592
00:27:49.859 --> 00:27:50.519
stories.

593
00:27:50.579 --> 00:27:53.400
She wants to achieve something for her own ends rather than the

594
00:27:53.400 --> 00:27:54.720
destruction of the planet per se.

595
00:27:54.779 --> 00:27:58.920
I'm not sure that Doctor Who fans know what amoral means, to be

596
00:27:58.920 --> 00:27:59.220
honest.

597
00:27:59.279 --> 00:28:02.460
When you think of a lot of people, because you want to do a

598
00:28:02.460 --> 00:28:03.660
thing.

599
00:28:03.720 --> 00:28:05.160
That's not amoral, right?

600
00:28:05.220 --> 00:28:06.240
Okay.

601
00:28:06.299 --> 00:28:08.220
So, you know.

602
00:28:08.640 --> 00:28:11.759
Look, I'm just looking forward to seeing what happens in the next

603
00:28:11.759 --> 00:28:16.200
2 episodes and I hope they can, you know, use her well and I'm

604
00:28:16.200 --> 00:28:16.920
looking forward to that.

605
00:28:17.099 --> 00:28:21.180
There's other things in this story that I think are sensational.

606
00:28:21.240 --> 00:28:25.319
I think Verada is just wonderful as Belinda and her absolute panic

607
00:28:25.319 --> 00:28:29.099
had been left by herself was just incredible.

608
00:28:29.160 --> 00:28:32.339
And then the other one is, of course, Carol Anne Ford.

609
00:28:32.400 --> 00:28:34.140
Like, I didn't see that coming at all.

610
00:28:34.200 --> 00:28:36.779
Yes, I'll be interested to see what that is.

611
00:28:36.839 --> 00:28:39.539
I mean, if there is a consequence to the doctor's behaviour.

612
00:28:39.599 --> 00:28:43.980
It's Carol Anne who's trying to kind of snap him out of it before

613
00:28:43.980 --> 00:28:44.940
Belinda turns up.

614
00:28:45.000 --> 00:28:48.420
And so that seems to be the thing that like, what is she doing

615
00:28:48.420 --> 00:28:48.720
there?

616
00:28:48.779 --> 00:28:49.980
Or does she never come back?

617
00:28:50.039 --> 00:28:54.240
Is it just some weird, inexplicable thing where we had Carol Anne

618
00:28:54.240 --> 00:28:57.119
just a moment before the end so that we could finally get her in?

619
00:28:57.180 --> 00:28:57.660
Who knows?

620
00:28:57.720 --> 00:28:58.980
I hope so.

621
00:29:00.000 --> 00:29:03.900
I mean, Russell has been seeding this since the devil's chord.

622
00:29:03.960 --> 00:29:08.519
I think, you know, since her spotlight photo appeared on Capaldi's

623
00:29:08.519 --> 00:29:10.200
desk in series 10.

624
00:29:11.160 --> 00:29:14.339
We've been inevitably heading towards a rematch between the doctor

625
00:29:14.339 --> 00:29:16.079
and Susan.

626
00:29:16.140 --> 00:29:18.000
So we'll see how that pays out.

627
00:29:18.059 --> 00:29:19.859
I don't think rematch is the right way.

628
00:29:20.759 --> 00:29:24.900
The thing that I'm most looking forward to is just Mrs. Flood

629
00:29:24.900 --> 00:29:31.980
being Renfield. like she's essentially Renfield, and my theory is

630
00:29:31.980 --> 00:29:33.779
that she's the new Yurak.

631
00:29:34.140 --> 00:29:37.980
And so at some point, the Rani...

632
00:29:37.980 --> 00:29:43.319
The Rani will say, I have to leave Mrs. Flood behind, you know, Kel

633
00:29:43.319 --> 00:29:44.819
Domage after so many years.

634
00:29:44.880 --> 00:29:49.740
Um, and then, and then she'll kill Lorani in revenge.

635
00:29:49.799 --> 00:29:54.059
So that's my educated guess for how this plays out.

636
00:29:54.119 --> 00:29:56.339
But certainly that comedy beat at the end.

637
00:29:56.400 --> 00:29:59.759
Like, just having the runny appear and having her doing hilarious

638
00:29:59.759 --> 00:30:03.059
comedy with Anita Dobson was just a great way of introducing the

639
00:30:03.059 --> 00:30:03.420
character.

640
00:30:03.539 --> 00:30:07.559
My educated guess, and I am hoping that this will be to Simon's

641
00:30:07.559 --> 00:30:10.980
liking. than it turns out that Mrs. Flood has been breeding

642
00:30:10.980 --> 00:30:14.519
dinosaurs in that flat next to where Ruby Sunday lives and they

643
00:30:14.519 --> 00:30:17.039
all break out and one of them eats Susan. about that?

644
00:30:17.099 --> 00:30:19.380
Yes, we're trapped, you blundering woman.

645
00:30:21.660 --> 00:30:23.339
Oh boy.

646
00:30:23.400 --> 00:30:26.819
I just think Mrs. Flood will be treated so badly that she will

647
00:30:26.819 --> 00:30:29.640
actually turn on the Rani at some point.

648
00:30:29.759 --> 00:30:33.720
And I do hope that Susan is involved because we can't just have

649
00:30:33.720 --> 00:30:35.579
that one little sequence.

650
00:30:35.640 --> 00:30:38.579
Maybe she's out for revenge after being left with David.

651
00:30:40.799 --> 00:30:43.559
Maybe, maybe.

652
00:30:43.619 --> 00:30:44.460
All right.

653
00:30:44.519 --> 00:30:47.279
Well, in that case, I think we'll wind this up.

654
00:30:47.339 --> 00:30:51.299
I have a few things that I want to plug 500 year diaries.

655
00:30:51.420 --> 00:30:53.460
Season 2 continues unabated.

656
00:30:53.519 --> 00:30:58.740
We just released our episode on the Santarin experiment, and this

657
00:30:58.740 --> 00:31:03.359
week we'll be looking at the 2nd coming of the Mara in Snake Dance

658
00:31:03.359 --> 00:31:06.180
or Snake Dance, I think I pronounce it the other day.

659
00:31:06.240 --> 00:31:08.339
I haven't quite worked in that. dance, dance.

660
00:31:08.460 --> 00:31:10.920
You didn't choir at school, were you?

661
00:31:10.980 --> 00:31:12.420
No, I was actually.

662
00:31:13.259 --> 00:31:17.640
You can keep up with us on Flightthrough Entirety.com, on Blue Sky

663
00:31:17.640 --> 00:31:19.559
or at FT podcast on Mastodon.

664
00:31:19.619 --> 00:31:23.640
We just released an episode of Startling Barbara Bain with Space

665
00:31:23.640 --> 00:31:28.440
1999's Weird Take on Planet of Evil, written by Doctor Who's very

666
00:31:28.440 --> 00:31:31.619
own Johnny Byrne in a matter.

667
00:31:31.799 --> 00:31:32.700
That should be a great one then.

668
00:31:32.759 --> 00:31:35.400
It's really terrible in Matter of Life and Death.

669
00:31:35.460 --> 00:31:37.079
Oh God.

670
00:31:37.619 --> 00:31:39.240
Yeah, yeah.

671
00:31:39.299 --> 00:31:41.220
He scripted it in season one.

672
00:31:41.279 --> 00:31:42.900
It's really quite a thing.

673
00:31:42.960 --> 00:31:47.279
And then, of course, there's Untitled Star Trek Project, and we

674
00:31:47.279 --> 00:31:51.059
just released an episode on a lower deck, season 5 episode called

675
00:31:51.059 --> 00:31:54.359
Fully dilated, and there's more of that to come.

676
00:31:54.420 --> 00:31:58.079
And I have something small to plug, if I may, because this is a

677
00:31:58.079 --> 00:31:59.819
Eurovision themed episode.

678
00:31:59.940 --> 00:32:03.240
I can report that last week on my radio show in conversation.

679
00:32:03.359 --> 00:32:06.119
I interviewed the one and only Michael Ball, who represented

680
00:32:06.119 --> 00:32:09.839
Britain in Eurovision in 1992 and came 2nd.

681
00:32:10.740 --> 00:32:13.079
And the one that he admits to in the interview is that he was kind

682
00:32:13.079 --> 00:32:15.960
of glad that he came 2nd because he didn't want the preamble to

683
00:32:15.960 --> 00:32:19.380
his name for evermore being Eurovision winner, Michael Ball.

684
00:32:19.440 --> 00:32:21.660
Instead he was a Eurovision runner-up.

685
00:32:21.720 --> 00:32:24.059
But I'm really proud of the interview. a really lovely guy and

686
00:32:24.059 --> 00:32:26.339
anyone who's a musical theatre fan should get along.

687
00:32:26.400 --> 00:32:29.700
So I find 2 MBS in conversation in your podcast app of choice.

688
00:32:29.759 --> 00:32:32.400
I think Sonia would have accepted that the following year.

689
00:32:32.460 --> 00:32:33.539
Yes.

690
00:32:33.539 --> 00:32:35.220
All right.

691
00:32:35.279 --> 00:32:37.079
Well I'll put a link to that in the show notes.

692
00:32:37.140 --> 00:32:37.980
All right.

693
00:32:38.039 --> 00:32:41.039
So in that case, all that remains is for me to say, until next

694
00:32:41.039 --> 00:32:43.259
time, let's battle begin.

695
00:32:43.319 --> 00:32:45.660
Thank you very much for listening and good night.

696
00:32:45.720 --> 00:32:46.859
Good night.

697
00:32:46.920 --> 00:32:49.319
Duzpoint. see you soon