WEBVTT NOTE This transcript was created on 2026-06-07 at 11:55:54 1 00:00:00.000 --> 00:00:11.580 Hello, dear listener, and welcome back to the 2nd great and bountiful Human Empire, the only Doctor Who flash cast whose 6 word story is some nerds had too many opinions. 2 00:00:11.640 --> 00:00:15.779 Actually, maybe not the only Doctor Who flash cast. 3 00:00:16.079 --> 00:00:18.059 I'm Nathan. 4 00:00:18.120 --> 00:00:20.640 I'm Brendan, and I'm Todd. 5 00:00:20.699 --> 00:00:30.000 Well, we are here to talk about the story and the engine, the 2nd Doctor Who episode to have an ampersand in the title. 6 00:00:30.120 --> 00:00:34.439 It's written by Inua Ellams, who also plays the stall holder. 7 00:00:34.500 --> 00:00:38.820 Uh, it turns out, uh, and directed by McCallum McPherson. 8 00:00:38.939 --> 00:00:46.140 And I think that we'll just start by saying what we thought of the episode generally. 9 00:00:46.200 --> 00:00:51.060 Todd, what sort of experience did you have watching this episode? 10 00:00:51.539 --> 00:00:53.579 Well, Nathan. 11 00:00:53.880 --> 00:00:58.799 I wanted to like it more than I did as I watched it the 1st time. 12 00:00:58.859 --> 00:01:13.620 I found it very talky, and I was missing things, and I could see all the components, and, and but I kept looking at my watch, which reminded me of Chris Chibnall episodes, and I sort of, I sort of left myself muddled at the end. 13 00:01:13.680 --> 00:01:15.959 It's not a four, it could be an eight. 14 00:01:16.019 --> 00:01:17.519 You know, it's probably a 6. 15 00:01:17.579 --> 00:01:20.700 So I wanted to give it some breathing space. 16 00:01:20.760 --> 00:01:22.560 So I did watch it again last night. 17 00:01:22.560 --> 00:01:34.319 And I'm so delighted to report that I did have a ton experience where I liked it a lot more the 2nd time through and I got a lot of the explanations, which I missed, which just made it much more cohesive. 18 00:01:34.379 --> 00:01:36.060 So I actually thought it was very good. 19 00:01:36.120 --> 00:01:37.019 Brendan? 20 00:01:37.079 --> 00:01:42.000 I wanted to watch it again. before recording, but I haven't had time. 21 00:01:42.060 --> 00:01:50.760 But I've sort of had the experience of just thinking about it more and just thinking about it more has made me enjoy it even more. 22 00:01:50.819 --> 00:01:54.420 And even my 1st impression of it was, well, this is definitely a 7 out of 10. 23 00:01:54.420 --> 00:02:00.480 And I've said this on socials elsewhere, it gave me the Warriors Gate feeling of the 1st time I watched Warriors Gate. 24 00:02:00.540 --> 00:02:02.879 I came away from it going, I loved that. 25 00:02:03.000 --> 00:02:04.260 I don't know what was going on. 26 00:02:04.560 --> 00:02:14.460 This I actually had a better idea of what was going on when I finished watching it and just the 2 days I've had since then just sitting cogitating it. 27 00:02:14.520 --> 00:02:19.680 It's like, it's not only something beautiful, which is what, which is what I felt as the credits rolled. 28 00:02:19.740 --> 00:02:27.419 I went, no, no, no, I really like this story about stories and reading up on Enua Ellams and finding out his background as a playwright. 29 00:02:27.479 --> 00:02:32.400 I understand why the episode is written and directed the way it is. 30 00:02:32.460 --> 00:02:36.180 It's like a stage play and that's obviously something I'm very fond of. 31 00:02:36.300 --> 00:02:40.319 He's a poet as well, which is sort of interesting. 32 00:02:40.379 --> 00:02:42.300 I had a similar experience. 33 00:02:42.360 --> 00:02:52.020 I actually went out to dinner on Saturday night and came home having enjoyed the dinner and I watched it in bed on my phone. 34 00:02:52.020 --> 00:02:58.020 And I'm kind of going, I'm not following this, but maybe I'm kind of not sort of a bit under the weather or whatever. 35 00:02:58.080 --> 00:03:05.219 Like I thought it was stunningly beautiful and some incredible performances, but I couldn't kind of see how it all fit together. 36 00:03:05.280 --> 00:03:13.139 And I have to say the 2nd time I watched it, it was clearer, but it does seem to operate on a logic that I'm not always able to follow. 37 00:03:13.139 --> 00:03:17.639 And some of it is the sort of logic of myth and mythology and things like that. 38 00:03:17.699 --> 00:03:20.039 It seems to be really packed and really dense. 39 00:03:20.099 --> 00:03:31.259 And then this afternoon I read El Sandov's review and she compared it to Ghost Light, which I thought was actually really interesting because Ghost Light has a very strong thematic core. 40 00:03:31.319 --> 00:03:37.259 It has a real proper vibe and a real kind of atmosphere that everything is working towards. 41 00:03:37.259 --> 00:03:39.719 And on 1st viewing it makes very little sense. 42 00:03:39.780 --> 00:03:42.900 It's hard to see how all the pieces fit together. 43 00:03:42.960 --> 00:03:50.460 And so, there's a sense in which this is an episode that is being told in a way that we're not used to. 44 00:03:50.520 --> 00:03:54.599 And I still think it is a bit talky in the middle, but I think it's magnificent. 45 00:03:54.659 --> 00:03:58.979 And like you, Brendan, I've not been able to stop thinking about it since I 1st saw it. 46 00:03:59.039 --> 00:04:04.740 Well, I just have to concur that, you know, I gave it that breathing space because I kept thinking about it too. 47 00:04:06.000 --> 00:04:08.819 Well, I mean, let's talk about Africa. 48 00:04:08.879 --> 00:04:11.699 Doctor Who has been set in Africa before. 49 00:04:12.419 --> 00:04:19.740 For a few brief moments in the middle of the Dalek Master plan where we visit Egypt. 50 00:04:21.180 --> 00:04:26.100 And I thought that, you know, that it just looked amazing. 51 00:04:26.160 --> 00:04:30.540 Like the attempt to create, you know, Lagos in Wales, I think. 52 00:04:30.600 --> 00:04:33.959 Although there must have been some shooting overseas as well. 53 00:04:34.019 --> 00:04:40.379 There must have been some shooting in Africa, I think, some of the earliest scenes in the market. 54 00:04:40.439 --> 00:04:46.800 But I thought it looked amazing, like a really striking looking episode and vastly different from anything that we've seen before. 55 00:04:47.399 --> 00:04:51.959 It reminded me of, oh, I can't think of the show now. 56 00:04:52.019 --> 00:04:56.519 It was done several years ago and it was all set in Africa and they did one series of it. 57 00:04:56.579 --> 00:04:58.199 Oh, somebody will remind me. 58 00:04:58.259 --> 00:05:00.959 I think it's the ladies something detective agency. 59 00:05:01.019 --> 00:05:01.560 I can't remember. 60 00:05:01.620 --> 00:05:04.500 Oh yeah, the number one ladies detective agency, is that it? 61 00:05:04.560 --> 00:05:04.980 Yes. 62 00:05:05.040 --> 00:05:05.459 Correct. 63 00:05:05.519 --> 00:05:06.000 Yeah. 64 00:05:06.060 --> 00:05:12.540 And that's what it reminded me of, just their experiences and what they were talking about, and I really appreciated that. 65 00:05:12.600 --> 00:05:19.079 But then the barbershop, the sparseness of the barbershop and the streets and that I thought was really striking. 66 00:05:19.139 --> 00:05:32.339 Look, I did think that the initial scenes obviously were filmed in Lagos, but then we went into the, we've done the studio market and I did kind of went, well, I think it looks better than the market in turn left. 67 00:05:32.399 --> 00:05:39.779 I think it because, yeah, it's shot closer and stuff and there seem to be more people and the and the set seem to be bigger. 68 00:05:39.839 --> 00:05:50.519 I'm just, I'm just seeing here. they did commission and shoot drone shots of a market in Lagos and everything else was created in the studio. 69 00:05:50.579 --> 00:05:54.839 The funny thing is, those really tight early shots in the market where it's really crowded. 70 00:05:54.899 --> 00:05:58.019 It didn't strike me immediately that, oh, this studio. 71 00:05:58.079 --> 00:06:03.180 It was when the doctor goes into the back alley and sees the missing posters and finds Omo's shop. 72 00:06:03.240 --> 00:06:08.879 And I was kind of okay with that feeling a bit more like studio because we're meant to feel that this is different. 73 00:06:09.000 --> 00:06:13.620 Yes, to the bustling, lively, happy market outside. 74 00:06:13.680 --> 00:06:18.420 And, you know, with how happy the doctor is as soon as he's walking through there. 75 00:06:19.500 --> 00:06:23.100 Yeah, in Doctor Who terms, it does make me think of turn left. 76 00:06:23.160 --> 00:06:25.199 It does make me think of the Rings of Akaten. 77 00:06:25.259 --> 00:06:29.100 But in both of those cases, you never really feel like the doctor is part of the market. 78 00:06:29.160 --> 00:06:33.120 Like the doctor is there and is a tourist enjoying these things, whereas... 79 00:06:33.120 --> 00:06:40.439 Shoot, he just really manages to subtly play that feeling of belonging that the doctor is talking about. 80 00:06:40.500 --> 00:06:41.519 And it's quite beautiful. 81 00:06:41.579 --> 00:06:43.199 It's something we don't often see. 82 00:06:43.259 --> 00:06:45.720 You know, something about the doctor's characters. 83 00:06:45.779 --> 00:06:46.800 The doctor is distant. 84 00:06:46.860 --> 00:06:52.139 So to have somewhere that the doctor feels like home is absolutely beautiful. 85 00:06:52.199 --> 00:06:59.879 I mean, this is a doctor who's much less guarded and much more willing to show his feelings. 86 00:07:00.000 --> 00:07:01.319 He's someone who is open. 87 00:07:01.379 --> 00:07:08.939 He's not, it's not like he's a mask or a performance the way maybe tenants doctor is or the way that Jody's doctor was. 88 00:07:09.000 --> 00:07:13.259 She was very guarded and very private and this doctor isn't like that at all. 89 00:07:13.319 --> 00:07:19.139 There's that scene at the beginning, which I just thought was magnificently good because like you're casting a black doctor. 90 00:07:19.199 --> 00:07:37.439 And what we have here is a black doctor, a black script writer, and a black director, all working on this episode, and this episode really centres Shooty's blackness, and it lets him talk about it for the 1st time. 91 00:07:37.500 --> 00:07:45.180 There's that, you know, that moment in dot and bubble where he suddenly realises that all of those people are racist and that's why he's being treated in this way. 92 00:07:45.420 --> 00:07:54.720 Um, but here he talks, he talks to us about the experience of being black and what the barbershop means to him. 93 00:07:54.779 --> 00:08:03.899 And like I was aware that the black barbershop is an important element in African-American culture. 94 00:08:03.959 --> 00:08:07.800 You know, you see that depicted on TV and in movies and things all the time. 95 00:08:07.860 --> 00:08:11.819 I didn't know that it was a thing in Africa itself. 96 00:08:11.879 --> 00:08:17.579 But that barbershop where men meet and it's a safe place. 97 00:08:17.699 --> 00:08:21.959 But I really appreciated that insight from him. 98 00:08:22.019 --> 00:08:29.699 And the wonderful way that, you know, it's portrayed as something like I, you know, this is an alien thing, I'm the doctor and you won't understand this, Belinda. 99 00:08:29.759 --> 00:08:37.259 And then Belinda comes back and talks about being taken to India by her nan and having exactly the same experience and feeling the same way. 100 00:08:37.320 --> 00:08:41.580 And that's not a perspective that we've heard expressed in Doctor Who before. 101 00:08:41.639 --> 00:08:50.940 And it is a thing where having a black doctor opens up the show to different types of storytelling and that's exactly what's happening here. 102 00:08:51.419 --> 00:08:55.500 And that was a beautiful scene and a lovely moment with Belinda. 103 00:08:55.559 --> 00:08:58.980 She had some nice moments actually in the episode. 104 00:08:59.039 --> 00:09:06.179 She had a couple of other lines later on, which I thought were very nice, even if I did feel like she was a bit sidelined for part of the episode. 105 00:09:06.240 --> 00:09:10.620 Like, obviously they need to get to flash back in so they could have Mrs. Flood and that sort of stuff. 106 00:09:10.679 --> 00:09:18.299 But it would have been nice, had, um, Abby, perhaps been monitoring her in the marketplace and led her there. 107 00:09:18.419 --> 00:09:30.779 I just kind of thought that was a little bit clunky, if I can put it like that, because at one point in the marketplace blending gets pulled up for knocking over the, you know, the store and then she's okay, like nothing happened. 108 00:09:30.840 --> 00:09:41.100 Yeah, I would have liked if Abby had sort of been monitoring this companion and then sort of directed her or just something there. like that was something for me that that I would have liked to have seen. 109 00:09:41.820 --> 00:09:53.340 But when she was in the action, later on, she was extremely good, and I can't remember the line, but there was a line that she did say, I'm sure she said it to Abby, which was very powerful, but I can't remember why. 110 00:09:53.399 --> 00:09:54.720 Is it hurt people, hurt people? 111 00:09:54.779 --> 00:09:56.820 Was that her line or was that for his line? 112 00:09:56.879 --> 00:09:57.720 Yeah, that was her line. 113 00:09:57.840 --> 00:09:59.759 Yeah, that was blind. 114 00:09:59.820 --> 00:10:01.259 Yeah, that was the line then. 115 00:10:01.320 --> 00:10:01.679 Yeah. 116 00:10:01.740 --> 00:10:07.080 And I just thought, wow, you know, again, showing what a great character that she is. 117 00:10:07.139 --> 00:10:11.279 I mean, I believe this was originally written for Millie's character. 118 00:10:11.340 --> 00:10:12.240 Oh, right. 119 00:10:12.299 --> 00:10:14.100 But you don't realise that, you know. 120 00:10:15.179 --> 00:10:23.639 In fact, I think it works really well because there's that thing where she really wants to go home and and the doctor's going to take her. 121 00:10:23.700 --> 00:10:28.200 He goes out, like he explains how important this place is, but he goes out with a vindicator. 122 00:10:28.259 --> 00:10:38.220 He uses the vindicator, and then he's coming back in to just leave, and she says, no, you go, you know, go to this place that makes you happy. 123 00:10:38.279 --> 00:10:44.580 And people have been sort of complaining a little bit about her constantly saying, I need to, I need to go home. 124 00:10:44.639 --> 00:10:45.600 You have to take me home. 125 00:10:45.659 --> 00:10:52.860 But, One of the things that I've felt is that she continues to warm to him in a way. 126 00:10:52.919 --> 00:10:55.620 She doesn't want to get home because she doesn't like this. 127 00:10:55.679 --> 00:10:59.399 You know, she was desperate to go outside in 1952. 128 00:10:59.580 --> 00:11:05.519 And here she wants the doctor to experience the place that's so important to him. 129 00:11:05.879 --> 00:11:08.460 I mean, that's the nature of this script. 130 00:11:08.519 --> 00:11:10.919 It's a shame like in an 8 episode season. 131 00:11:10.980 --> 00:11:14.940 She wasn't really in last week and this week she was very much in the background. 132 00:11:15.000 --> 00:11:18.960 You kind of want more with the current companion, but you know, that's just the nature of things. 133 00:11:19.019 --> 00:11:19.860 Yeah. 134 00:11:20.460 --> 00:11:31.259 I also think the doctor telling a story about Belinda that we didn't see and that she hasn't told him. 135 00:11:31.320 --> 00:11:38.220 It is a way of showing us that they have been talking and getting to know each other in the scenes we haven't seen. 136 00:11:38.220 --> 00:11:42.179 And it's not a story about an adventure they've had together. 137 00:11:42.240 --> 00:11:50.580 It's a story about a day in her life and why she does what she does and how her life has affected people. 138 00:11:50.639 --> 00:11:59.159 And it's actually the doctor kind of taking Omo's idea of, you know, you're the great, you're the great time lord and the great traveller, you will have so many stories. 139 00:11:59.399 --> 00:12:06.899 And the doctor's like, you don't have to be a timelord and a traveller and save planets to have stories. 140 00:12:07.259 --> 00:12:09.659 I think the story's just beautiful. 141 00:12:09.720 --> 00:12:17.399 And the 2nd time I watched it, I found myself really incredibly moved by it because, you know, when they wheel her out. 142 00:12:17.460 --> 00:12:29.220 Like the doctor says, they wield the lady away and then she starts crying and she's just crying, of course, because she's exhausted and because of what she's given up, not because the ladies died. 143 00:12:29.279 --> 00:12:31.259 So when the lady comes back at the end. 144 00:12:31.320 --> 00:12:34.620 Um, you know, like I just found myself very moved by that. 145 00:12:34.740 --> 00:12:35.759 I thought it was great. 146 00:12:35.820 --> 00:12:36.720 It was really good. 147 00:12:36.840 --> 00:12:40.080 What do you think of the wall that shows the stories on it? 148 00:12:41.519 --> 00:12:44.519 Marvellous. absolutely marvellous. 149 00:12:44.580 --> 00:12:47.039 And the opening title star on it, which is great. 150 00:12:47.100 --> 00:12:52.320 You know, we're continuing this theme of the gods break our reality. 151 00:12:52.320 --> 00:13:01.919 Because, you know, we had maestro starts playing the theme and that goes into the titles and we got Omo is imagining the titles. 152 00:13:01.980 --> 00:13:05.399 Like, he's imagining, he's like, oh, I'm in a pre-credit scene. 153 00:13:06.120 --> 00:13:11.940 Marvellous I liked the way that segued into the titles. that was good. 154 00:13:12.059 --> 00:13:18.960 I think the way in which that was used did remind me of one of the chibnal episodes, I can't remember which one it is. 155 00:13:19.259 --> 00:13:21.120 Can you hear me? 156 00:13:21.179 --> 00:13:30.299 We get a backstory for the gods because Jim will really kind of kind of sets up the pantheon and then Russell runs with it. 157 00:13:30.360 --> 00:13:35.399 And it's an explanation of where those 2 characters come from in. 158 00:13:35.460 --> 00:13:36.419 Can you hear me? 159 00:13:36.480 --> 00:13:41.820 But it is kind of there for kind of just to illustrate someone's exposition scene. 160 00:13:41.879 --> 00:13:43.919 And so it's not used quite as cleverly. 161 00:13:43.980 --> 00:14:01.500 And I think that this version of Doctor Who has incorporated animation, like I think the animation of that story that he tells at the beginning, that Omo tells at the beginning, is really stunningly beautiful, did either you see on the BBC website, there's a longer version of Omo's story? 162 00:14:01.559 --> 00:14:02.940 Oh, no. 163 00:14:02.940 --> 00:14:09.600 What I did on my holidays by Omo Esosa in the great tradition? 164 00:14:09.659 --> 00:14:11.039 And it's really good. 165 00:14:11.100 --> 00:14:12.840 It's excellent. 166 00:14:12.899 --> 00:14:16.500 I will put a link to it in the show notes, but it's well worth a read. 167 00:14:16.559 --> 00:14:24.720 And it explains the background to the girl with the blue earrings as well and tells us a little bit about what Omo's life was like. 168 00:14:24.779 --> 00:14:26.519 So it said in 1965. 169 00:14:26.759 --> 00:14:28.860 And it's in Nigeria. 170 00:14:28.919 --> 00:14:31.980 It's really very interesting and pretty cool. 171 00:14:32.039 --> 00:14:35.279 So what did we think of the barber? 172 00:14:35.340 --> 00:14:39.600 And Abby, our 2 are they antagonists? 173 00:14:39.659 --> 00:14:40.139 Sort of. 174 00:14:40.259 --> 00:14:42.059 How 2 strange? 175 00:14:42.120 --> 00:14:44.580 Yeah, our 2 strange antagonists. 176 00:14:44.639 --> 00:14:56.100 I thought both brilliant performances, and the concept of the barber, as sort of the herald of the gods. 177 00:14:56.159 --> 00:14:59.039 You know, he goes around telling their stories. 178 00:14:59.100 --> 00:15:04.080 And the doctor then links that to being an online troll. 179 00:15:04.139 --> 00:15:18.480 And I'm also kind of like, okay, this is also, he's a bit like a proprietorial fan in that he knows the best way the stories are to be told and he, if the stories are not being told in the right way, he's going to rip the heart out of the storytellers and the gods. 180 00:15:18.480 --> 00:15:26.159 And just the performance had, it had menace, but it also had humility. 181 00:15:26.220 --> 00:15:28.080 Oh, I just loved it. 182 00:15:28.139 --> 00:15:29.340 I just loved him. 183 00:15:29.399 --> 00:15:35.580 He played Lord Boreal in his dark materials and he was absolutely terrifying in that. 184 00:15:35.639 --> 00:15:38.820 I spent my whole time going, where do I know this guy from? 185 00:15:38.820 --> 00:15:40.980 And I checked it out. 186 00:15:41.039 --> 00:15:45.179 I saw his, you know, MDB page where he had his sort of Lord Boreal hair. 187 00:15:45.240 --> 00:15:48.179 I thought he was pretty great in that. 188 00:15:48.240 --> 00:15:51.000 It's a strange thing, isn't it? 189 00:15:51.059 --> 00:15:53.759 Because he's taken the barber shop over from Omo. 190 00:15:53.820 --> 00:15:58.679 And so at the beginning, the doctor arrives and we don't really see the barber, like he's there. 191 00:15:58.740 --> 00:16:01.679 He's sort of doing things, but we don't really see him. 192 00:16:01.679 --> 00:16:04.080 And he acts like a mythical character. 193 00:16:04.139 --> 00:16:11.580 You know, you know how Fenrick plucks bones from the desert sands and carves them into chess pieces. 194 00:16:11.639 --> 00:16:19.259 That sort of thing where mythical characters and gods and things take a normal thing and turn it into something huge and epic. 195 00:16:19.320 --> 00:16:21.000 And that scene of him creating the web. 196 00:16:21.059 --> 00:16:22.139 Do you know what I mean? 197 00:16:22.200 --> 00:16:26.039 That's exactly how you would tell that story in a myth. 198 00:16:26.100 --> 00:16:28.980 And so he is this sort of strange mythic character. 199 00:16:29.039 --> 00:16:29.759 I really bought it. 200 00:16:29.820 --> 00:16:38.460 But he also spends the beginning of the episode being a sort of Doctor Who villain, you know, like in the next room with the control panels and all of that, which I thought was pretty great. 201 00:16:38.879 --> 00:16:42.600 I perhaps did not buy it as much as you guys bought it. 202 00:16:42.659 --> 00:16:51.899 The whole gods thing, I just didn't quite buy into, like, we're experiencing these gods now, not the ones that Shooty is talking about, which we're never seen. 203 00:16:51.960 --> 00:17:03.419 It's like when we experience the doctor meeting like Zastor or Asma or the Borad, which adventures that had never happened, and I just kind of, I kind of go, oh, it's just words to me. 204 00:17:03.480 --> 00:17:05.940 It's sort of like, you know, it's convenient for the plot. 205 00:17:06.000 --> 00:17:08.160 Um, so the whole gods thing. 206 00:17:08.220 --> 00:17:18.240 I'm just a little bit annoyed with perhaps suddenly she's the daughter of one of the gods that he's met and he kind of remembers her but doesn't and that was the aspect that I was going. 207 00:17:18.299 --> 00:17:22.380 Well, I mean, it was great to see Joe Martin and that was a fantastic shock moment. 208 00:17:22.440 --> 00:17:27.180 Um, So does that mean that he met, like, he obviously met her at that time? 209 00:17:27.180 --> 00:17:29.940 Did he meet the gods at that time when he was Joe Martin? 210 00:17:30.000 --> 00:17:34.380 You know, I was just a bit sort of, but putting that to one side. 211 00:17:34.440 --> 00:17:36.119 I thought his performance was wonderful. 212 00:17:36.180 --> 00:17:37.859 And I kept thinking about this. 213 00:17:37.920 --> 00:17:39.599 I kept thinking, oh, they've got to kill off people. 214 00:17:39.660 --> 00:17:41.039 They've got to be zapped out into space. 215 00:17:41.160 --> 00:17:45.000 You know, I'm not seeing anybody getting destroyed in the chair. 216 00:17:45.059 --> 00:17:49.559 But then I realised at the end, like in order for him to have redemption, that was never going to happen. 217 00:17:49.619 --> 00:17:57.779 And that was actually quite powerful that at the end, he, he could go and live a normal life and let that go and people could forgive him. 218 00:17:57.839 --> 00:17:59.339 And I thought that was extremely powerful. 219 00:17:59.400 --> 00:18:07.920 So, I was, this is why I was all muddled and conflicted the 1st time I watched it because I was wanting, The Doctor Who tropes that I love. 220 00:18:07.980 --> 00:18:12.900 But then I realised we're not being given that and why is that? 221 00:18:12.960 --> 00:18:18.359 And I thought that was really a wonderful ending, you know, at the end there. 222 00:18:18.420 --> 00:18:20.940 When Omo gives him his father's name. 223 00:18:21.000 --> 00:18:24.299 You know, he says I don't have a name for people to trust me with. 224 00:18:24.359 --> 00:18:28.380 And so Omo gives him his father's name and I just think that was so great. 225 00:18:28.440 --> 00:18:29.880 That was such a great moment. 226 00:18:30.000 --> 00:18:36.960 I mean, the gods thing is really interesting because these don't seem at all to be the gods that we've been talking about over the last couple of years. 227 00:18:37.019 --> 00:18:42.000 Like, you know, Maestro and the and the toy maker and and Larks. 228 00:18:42.119 --> 00:18:45.240 That's why I struggle with it because they're ones we haven't encountered. 229 00:18:45.299 --> 00:18:46.440 And thinking, where does this fit in? 230 00:18:46.500 --> 00:18:48.359 How have we had the time for this? 231 00:18:48.359 --> 00:18:54.779 And like the doctor's always been so kind of human over the years, he's just met evil people and villains rather than gods. 232 00:18:54.839 --> 00:18:58.799 And when it starts going to that territory, I just, I struggle with it. 233 00:18:58.859 --> 00:18:59.220 I do. 234 00:18:59.279 --> 00:19:05.819 Simon said that, I think, online too, that he thinks that the show is getting too kind of supernatural and stuff. 235 00:19:05.880 --> 00:19:21.420 I mean, gods and storytelling are super important and they're intertwined, and these are all real gods who he was mentioning, and he obviously mentioned some European gods, but some African gods as well, and the barber and Urbana and stuff. 236 00:19:21.480 --> 00:19:22.259 Do you know what I mean? 237 00:19:22.319 --> 00:19:24.539 Like they're clearly kind of associated with that. 238 00:19:24.599 --> 00:19:27.359 And there's things going on that I don't know enough. 239 00:19:27.480 --> 00:19:41.759 I know that Anansi is from Ghana, I think, and is a sort of spider trickster figure, and so is appropriate for that, and he talks about Saga, who's from Norse mythology, and Dionysus, obviously. 240 00:19:41.819 --> 00:19:45.240 And, you know, gods are created by stories. 241 00:19:45.299 --> 00:19:47.099 That's where they come from. 242 00:19:47.160 --> 00:19:50.160 And this tells it the other way around. 243 00:19:50.220 --> 00:19:52.140 So there's something about mythology going on there. 244 00:19:52.200 --> 00:19:58.259 But it was one of those things where I felt I'm not not quite equipped to know exactly what's going on here. 245 00:19:58.319 --> 00:20:01.799 But I was kind of content to just sort of let that wash over me a little bit. 246 00:20:01.859 --> 00:20:06.599 This might be something where I'm just not going to get this and that's kind of okay, I think. 247 00:20:06.660 --> 00:20:08.279 Here's a question. 248 00:20:08.339 --> 00:20:09.900 Is Abina a god at the end? 249 00:20:09.960 --> 00:20:11.279 Like, does she walk away? 250 00:20:11.279 --> 00:20:16.619 Like, she is a god and she just walks off stage left or page right or whatever it happens to me. 251 00:20:16.680 --> 00:20:19.019 Looking fabulous, by the way. 252 00:20:19.079 --> 00:20:20.160 Awesome. 253 00:20:20.220 --> 00:20:22.559 Her performance was so wonderful. 254 00:20:22.680 --> 00:20:25.200 It was warm when it needed to be warm. 255 00:20:25.259 --> 00:20:27.900 It had an edge to it when it needed to have an edge to it. 256 00:20:27.900 --> 00:20:31.140 And, yeah, I really, really loved her. 257 00:20:31.140 --> 00:20:39.660 And, and having her in that moment with the fugitive doctor, woman to woman, was Marvellous. 258 00:20:40.920 --> 00:20:57.119 And and something I find really extraordinary because just looking up the cast here, Ariana Bakari, who is the barber, we have seen in Doctor Who before, he is Leandro, the Lion Man, in he is, of course he is. 259 00:20:57.180 --> 00:21:00.480 So another not quite Warriors gate link. 260 00:21:01.019 --> 00:21:06.359 Michelle Asanti seems to have most of her experience in voice work. 261 00:21:06.420 --> 00:21:17.339 That's not to say that she hasn't appeared on screen, but just looking here, it seems to be maybe 50-50 on screen and voice work and yeah, I would just love to see more of her. 262 00:21:17.400 --> 00:21:19.799 I'd love to see her back in Doctor Who in the same role. 263 00:21:19.859 --> 00:21:23.279 But yeah, I found her really compelling to watch. 264 00:21:23.339 --> 00:21:34.619 And because, you know, I'm a bloody, you know, anorak with a copy of the discontinuity guide, when the doctor's saying, I know you, I'm going, well, obviously she's a new character. 265 00:21:34.680 --> 00:21:36.839 She's not going to be the Rani or anything like that. 266 00:21:36.900 --> 00:21:42.359 She's no one we as fans have met before, but I was really drawn into the mystery of, okay, who is she then? 267 00:21:43.019 --> 00:21:44.400 Yeah. 268 00:21:44.460 --> 00:21:49.500 And yeah, then using that as a way to bring Joe Martin in genius. 269 00:21:49.559 --> 00:21:54.420 See, I wanted them to then have one of those flashbacks in the picture. 270 00:21:54.480 --> 00:21:56.400 You see, that's the anorex that I am. 271 00:21:56.460 --> 00:22:01.319 We talked about all that, but we didn't see it over there and I kind of really wanted that. 272 00:22:01.319 --> 00:22:03.240 Yeah, that would have been great. 273 00:22:03.900 --> 00:22:05.519 Yeah, yeah. 274 00:22:05.579 --> 00:22:11.400 This is why I considered this episode to be good, but there's little things that I pick apart, you know? 275 00:22:11.940 --> 00:22:14.940 the things with the gods and that sort of thing, right? 276 00:22:14.940 --> 00:22:16.859 I just kind of think, oh, it was right there. 277 00:22:16.920 --> 00:22:18.359 Give us that. 278 00:22:18.539 --> 00:22:23.220 I think like keeping the Joe Martin thing a little bit Vegas, super interesting. 279 00:22:23.279 --> 00:22:25.559 Like, does he remember what happened to Joe Martin? 280 00:22:25.619 --> 00:22:26.519 I don't think he should. 281 00:22:27.240 --> 00:22:34.079 But also it's the previous time that the doctor's been black, and you kind of think maybe she needed to be there? 282 00:22:34.140 --> 00:22:35.940 And it's so generous. 283 00:22:36.000 --> 00:22:36.720 Do you know what I mean? 284 00:22:36.779 --> 00:22:38.279 Like, it's so generous. 285 00:22:38.339 --> 00:22:44.460 Russell, I think, has treated the cibnolera in a sort of kindly and generous way. 286 00:22:44.519 --> 00:22:52.859 And given that Joe Martin as the fugitive doctor is one of the best things about the era, having her back just for that moment, I thought was really terrific. 287 00:22:52.920 --> 00:22:53.640 Really good. 288 00:22:53.700 --> 00:22:56.579 And then all of the clips of all the other doctors, you know? 289 00:22:56.640 --> 00:22:57.299 Yeah. 290 00:22:57.359 --> 00:23:03.180 Although mine is one the fact that Colin Baker had like one millisecond at the end. the great tradition. 291 00:23:03.480 --> 00:23:12.660 I have just noticed that Michelle Asanti has been in Doctor Who before as well she is credited as neighbour in the forest of the night. 292 00:23:12.720 --> 00:23:17.519 So I'm guessing I'm guessing maybe she was complaining about the hydrangeas. don't know. 293 00:23:17.579 --> 00:23:19.680 Can someone cut them? 294 00:23:19.740 --> 00:23:27.779 So this is reasons why both of these actors now have to be in another episode because they just want to erase those 2 episodes from there. 295 00:23:28.799 --> 00:23:31.920 Hey, I like the woman who lived. 296 00:23:31.980 --> 00:23:35.759 I don't mind either fast of the night, oddly enough. 297 00:23:35.759 --> 00:23:38.700 All right. 298 00:23:38.759 --> 00:23:45.420 Well, um, there is one other thing that we haven't mentioned while we're talking about people who have been in the show before. 299 00:23:45.480 --> 00:24:00.059 So Belinda notices, and if you don't want to be spoiled, this isn't a spoiler, it is in the closing credits, but we are going to speculate about the finale or the next few episodes. 300 00:24:00.119 --> 00:24:03.960 And if you haven't noticed this thing, you might find that irritating. 301 00:24:04.019 --> 00:24:11.579 So if you're particularly squeamish about that, you might want to bow out, but make sure that you, you know, obviously listen to 500-year diary. 302 00:24:11.640 --> 00:24:22.920 But I want to talk about Captain Poppy, who is the creepy little girl, I think is how Belinda puts it, who she just spots for a 2nd. 303 00:24:23.099 --> 00:24:27.059 And she does say to the doctor, did you see the creepy little girl? 304 00:24:27.059 --> 00:24:33.539 And the doctor says, all the stories are leaking out or something and getting mixed up. 305 00:24:33.599 --> 00:24:42.299 But that is Captain Poppy, who we last saw in the 2024 classic Space Babies. 306 00:24:42.359 --> 00:24:44.160 And thus it gets a -one for me. 307 00:24:46.079 --> 00:24:52.559 So this episode can't get more than an 8 now, so there's a ceiling to it. 308 00:24:52.619 --> 00:25:07.619 Look, I mean, as much as, you know, I disagree with you on space babies, the fact that she's there is an interesting thing and I think if these stories are bleeding, what's going to happen in the next episode and who are we going to then see, obviously, in the finale? 309 00:25:07.680 --> 00:25:08.819 Yeah. 310 00:25:08.880 --> 00:25:13.920 I didn't actually realise it was Poppy until you mentioned it just before recording, Nathan. 311 00:25:13.980 --> 00:25:18.180 And my immediate thought was, it's one of the timeless children. 312 00:25:18.240 --> 00:25:21.660 You know, it's one of the pre-Jo Martin doctors. 313 00:25:21.720 --> 00:25:26.039 But no, it being poppy is a lovely, is a lovely callback. 314 00:25:26.160 --> 00:25:27.059 Yeah. 315 00:25:27.119 --> 00:25:37.859 And even if it was never explained who she was, when we have Doctor Who doing myths and legends and gods and stories, it's okay to have things that aren't explained. 316 00:25:37.920 --> 00:25:41.519 And, you know, all all the showrunners have done that at some point. 317 00:25:41.579 --> 00:25:52.440 Like, I mean, even if we don't see any of them again in the finale, it's, it might be mentioned like there might be consequences for other bleed throughs, et cetera. 318 00:25:52.500 --> 00:25:57.240 So, yeah, you know, as soon as I saw her, I thought, mhm. 319 00:25:57.299 --> 00:26:00.119 Okay, that's who it is, is it? 320 00:26:00.539 --> 00:26:07.920 I do like that it does emphasise that those babies were meant to be creepy because they definitely were. 321 00:26:10.980 --> 00:26:14.519 Just before we go, though, I do want to say one thing. 322 00:26:14.579 --> 00:26:25.079 Richard has spoken to fans, someone who's listening, who talk to him a little bit about Lux and Richard quoted some of the things that he said about Larks. 323 00:26:25.140 --> 00:26:32.400 He sent quite a long message to Richard, and I haven't got his permission to read it out or anything like that. 324 00:26:32.460 --> 00:26:47.099 But I have to say that some of the stuff that I said, I think, was informed by what he had said in particular about the importance of barbers in African-American culture, which is something I was vaguely aware of, but he clarified quite a lot. 325 00:26:47.220 --> 00:27:01.079 And he did mention, and we haven't mentioned this, the thing about cornrows, and I did sort of look this up later, that corners were used by enslaved people to carry messages and maps and things like that. 326 00:27:01.140 --> 00:27:04.380 And he also mentioned the importance of hair. 327 00:27:04.440 --> 00:27:12.059 You know, that hairstyles for African-American people have been, uh, like are a cultural marker and are hugely significant. 328 00:27:12.119 --> 00:27:13.500 And that's something that he mentioned. 329 00:27:13.559 --> 00:27:21.960 So I just wanted to say, I'm not going to read that out because I don't have permission, but I really, really appreciate his insight and his engagement. 330 00:27:22.019 --> 00:27:29.519 It was a really, really interesting read and important, I think, in the way that you and I came to think about the episode, Brendan. 331 00:27:29.579 --> 00:27:31.380 Yeah, absolutely. 332 00:27:31.440 --> 00:27:32.339 Thank you, Alan. 333 00:27:32.400 --> 00:27:33.539 Your words were absolutely beautiful. 334 00:27:33.599 --> 00:27:35.160 Absolutely beautiful. 335 00:27:35.220 --> 00:27:37.380 Well, I found it extremely interesting. 336 00:27:37.440 --> 00:27:39.000 The whole hair braiding stuff. 337 00:27:39.059 --> 00:27:46.440 And I thought, you know, that's what I love in Doctor Who, things like that that educate and inform and widen your worldview, you know? 338 00:27:46.440 --> 00:27:48.299 Yeah, you know, I think that's brilliant. 339 00:27:48.359 --> 00:27:58.859 And getting back to something you said earlier, Todd, that's why I actually quite appreciated the use of gods we recognise, you know, talking about Loki. 340 00:27:58.859 --> 00:28:01.980 And, you know, I hadn't heard of saga, but I'd heard of Dionysus. 341 00:28:01.980 --> 00:28:09.660 And I had only vaguely heard of Anansi, but it's kind of a way of going, whichever of these gods you've heard of as a viewer. 342 00:28:09.720 --> 00:28:12.299 You have an anchor point to then understand. 343 00:28:12.539 --> 00:28:18.359 A Nancy or Saga or Dionysus, if you're not familiar with Greek mythology, for instance. 344 00:28:18.420 --> 00:28:28.019 And I think when the new series sets out to educate, it often does it in a really beautiful way that's not info dumping. 345 00:28:28.019 --> 00:28:31.200 You know we have the word assassin in English today. 346 00:28:31.680 --> 00:28:49.500 But it made me go, oh, okay, like, I was already understanding what was going on, but it's like, oh, this gives me additional context as someone who, you know, is a white viewer who doesn't know about as much about black culture as perhaps I should, and it gives me an anchor point. 347 00:28:49.559 --> 00:28:51.900 It helps me understand the richness of the story even more. 348 00:28:51.960 --> 00:28:53.759 That's a really good point, Brendan. 349 00:28:53.819 --> 00:28:54.960 Nicely put. 350 00:28:55.019 --> 00:28:56.099 All right. 351 00:28:56.160 --> 00:28:58.259 Well, in that case, I think we might wind up. 352 00:28:58.319 --> 00:29:00.779 I have some things to plug. 353 00:29:00.839 --> 00:29:27.480 I've already mentioned 500-year diaries season 2, the 2nd coming, which just released its episode on the Seeds of Death last Sunday, and this coming Sunday, we'll be looking at the return of the Santarans in the Santaran experiment, and you can keep up with us at FlightTorentirety.com on Blue Sky or at FTE podcast on Mastodon or Twitter, if you insist. 354 00:29:27.539 --> 00:29:30.119 Brandon, do you have anything to plug? 355 00:29:30.359 --> 00:29:40.140 Just the most recent episode of the 3 handed game, this green unpleasant land, which is on Emily, which is the last episode of the new Avengers. 356 00:29:40.200 --> 00:29:58.500 And before we go, I just want to continue with my occasional series on linking back the 2nd Russell T. Davies era to the William Hartnell era, this being the 5th episode of season two, links very nicely with the 5th story of season two, the Web Planet. 357 00:29:59.940 --> 00:30:01.740 She got a web? 358 00:30:02.039 --> 00:30:04.079 You've got a web. 359 00:30:04.079 --> 00:30:05.819 You've got a web. 360 00:30:05.940 --> 00:30:08.640 You got a very poetic way of speaking and telling story. 361 00:30:08.759 --> 00:30:16.380 And you have a central brain repository in the middle of everything. 362 00:30:16.380 --> 00:30:19.200 And Vicky calls the animus a giant spider. 363 00:30:19.259 --> 00:30:26.759 We have a giant spider here, and the threat here is eliminated by the destruction of the giant spider. 364 00:30:27.240 --> 00:30:30.359 Well, that's excellent. 365 00:30:30.420 --> 00:30:32.759 I'm waiting for us to get to the chase now. 366 00:30:37.259 --> 00:30:41.220 And Nathan, Nathan, what's your 6 word story for your life? 367 00:30:41.279 --> 00:30:43.200 I podcast I work i podcast? 368 00:30:43.259 --> 00:30:44.099 Yeah, basically. 369 00:30:44.160 --> 00:30:46.440 It's actually a podcast, I podcast, I podcast, really. 370 00:30:46.500 --> 00:30:47.460 Oh okay. 371 00:30:47.519 --> 00:30:48.059 Yeah, yeah. 372 00:30:48.180 --> 00:30:49.740 One day I'll figure it out. 373 00:30:51.299 --> 00:30:52.920 All right. 374 00:30:52.980 --> 00:30:58.980 Well, in that case, all that remains is for me to say, until next time, laugh and tell stories. 375 00:30:59.039 --> 00:31:01.500 Thank you very much for listening and good night. 376 00:31:01.559 --> 00:31:02.579 Good night. 377 00:31:02.640 --> 00:31:03.420 See you soon.