WEBVTT NOTE This transcript was created on 2026-06-07 at 11:55:08 1 00:00:00.000 --> 00:00:04.679 Hello, dear listener, and welcome back to the 2nd grade and bountiful Human Empire. 2 00:00:04.740 --> 00:00:07.919 The only Doctor Who flash cast with something on its back. 3 00:00:07.980 --> 00:00:09.359 It's a mole, I think. 4 00:00:09.419 --> 00:00:10.500 Love the mole. 5 00:00:10.619 --> 00:00:12.179 I'm Nathan. 6 00:00:12.240 --> 00:00:13.380 I'm James. 7 00:00:13.500 --> 00:00:15.060 I'm Johnny. 8 00:00:15.119 --> 00:00:16.559 And I'm Todd. 9 00:00:16.620 --> 00:00:36.899 Well, this week we're talking about the well, which is season two, episode three. of the current era, written by Russell T. Davis and Sharma Angel Wallfall, and directed by Amanda Bracci, who directed Lux last week and lots of other things, including an episode of Neighbours, apparently. 10 00:00:36.960 --> 00:00:37.979 She's from Melbourne. 11 00:00:38.039 --> 00:00:41.700 I've looked her up since our last episode. 12 00:00:42.539 --> 00:00:44.880 I'm sure she's glad about that. 13 00:00:44.939 --> 00:00:46.799 Yeah, yes, yes. 14 00:00:46.859 --> 00:00:54.719 So, um, let's talk the well, and I want to go generally around the table and talk about how we felt the episode went. 15 00:00:54.780 --> 00:00:58.020 Would you like to start us off, Johnny? 16 00:00:58.140 --> 00:00:59.579 Sure. 17 00:00:59.640 --> 00:01:05.760 I thought, I thought this was a perfectly acceptable episode of Doctor Who, a very traditional episode. 18 00:01:05.819 --> 00:01:09.420 Um, I got strong earth shock vibes from it throughout. 19 00:01:09.480 --> 00:01:14.159 It was, uh, it was done really well in lots of different ways. 20 00:01:14.219 --> 00:01:16.200 It didn't quite all come together for me. 21 00:01:16.260 --> 00:01:21.120 Uh, as one might have hoped, but I, you know, still there's a lot to like in it. 22 00:01:21.180 --> 00:01:26.280 Look, I, I agree with Johnny, but I actually thought it was probably better than that. 23 00:01:26.340 --> 00:01:28.379 It was solid. 24 00:01:28.439 --> 00:01:30.000 It was really terrifying. 25 00:01:30.060 --> 00:01:33.959 I mean, like it, I mean, you know, it's not as terrifying as midnight. 26 00:01:34.019 --> 00:01:35.459 I don't think it can top midnight. 27 00:01:35.519 --> 00:01:38.340 Um, but it did something interesting in me with the creature. 28 00:01:38.400 --> 00:01:49.500 Yeah, like, I mean, the idea that it's 400,000 years older and has evolved and has become even more of a bastard is kind of, it's, it's, yeah, they're like, that was horrifying. 29 00:01:49.799 --> 00:02:05.280 You know, Nathan, sometimes I think sometimes you can judge an episode by how your partner reacts when they're watching it with you because they're not a Doctor Who fanatic, and Ash Watches all of these with me, and sometimes he'll be distracted on his phone or I'll ask questions. 30 00:02:05.400 --> 00:02:11.400 This time, Silence, we are just totally captivated throughout the entire thing. 31 00:02:11.460 --> 00:02:14.520 It was brilliant. 32 00:02:14.939 --> 00:02:17.580 I think it's a really strong episode. 33 00:02:17.639 --> 00:02:18.539 I enjoyed it a lot. 34 00:02:18.599 --> 00:02:22.139 I've been pretty much on side with the episodes this season. 35 00:02:22.199 --> 00:02:33.659 And although there's nothing sort of stunningly new about this, and it does seem to be riffing on a whole heap of stuff from the previous Russell T. Davis era. 36 00:02:33.719 --> 00:02:37.500 I think there's something to be said for doing the thing again. 37 00:02:37.560 --> 00:02:42.960 Um, but when the production kind of conditions are a bit different. 38 00:02:43.020 --> 00:02:50.699 And so I just sort of thought, you know, it's the same sort of world that we've seen since the Impossible Planet. 39 00:02:50.759 --> 00:02:57.900 You know, the Impossible Planet was kind of our 1st new series, space base, and that's what space bases look like now. 40 00:02:58.020 --> 00:03:00.599 This I just thought looked incredible. 41 00:03:00.659 --> 00:03:03.599 These huge spaces, these beautiful sets. 42 00:03:03.719 --> 00:03:09.120 It managed to be atmospheric without turning the lights off and so everything was supervisible. 43 00:03:09.240 --> 00:03:15.780 Um, and, you know, like I just thought it was so confidently and so well done. 44 00:03:15.840 --> 00:03:20.159 And like Todd said, I thought it was really properly scary. 45 00:03:20.159 --> 00:03:25.919 And even watching it the 2nd time, that 1st jump scare, just absolutely. 46 00:03:25.919 --> 00:03:30.960 Like, I leapt again, even though I think I was pretty sure it was coming. 47 00:03:31.020 --> 00:03:34.199 So, so it worked for me perfectly. 48 00:03:34.259 --> 00:03:37.860 So I think I'm probably kind of in Todd's corner here. 49 00:03:37.919 --> 00:03:41.580 Well, I might be the Grinch that stole the well here. 50 00:03:41.639 --> 00:03:46.020 Like, I feel like I might be the one who, who, but I can, I can concur. 51 00:03:46.080 --> 00:03:47.039 It does look great. 52 00:03:47.099 --> 00:03:51.360 And I was thinking about how it's got a lot of traditional Doctor Who elements. 53 00:03:51.419 --> 00:03:52.800 It's got the quarry. 54 00:03:52.860 --> 00:04:02.879 It's got the big long corridor, but people have got to run up and down and it's got the big circular centrepiece, that arena feel for where most of it happens. 55 00:04:02.939 --> 00:04:15.240 And when I was watching unleash afterwards, and they showed some of the raw footage from within side that when they were shooting the stunts of the people leaping over on those wires. 56 00:04:15.300 --> 00:04:26.759 You could see how much work the colour grading had done to the whole episode and how it had really added a whole lot of atmosphere to everything because actually just looking at it, it didn't look that great. 57 00:04:26.879 --> 00:04:36.480 But on the episode they had managed to really pull off a whole consistent cold, uh, spooky kind of feel to the whole thing. 58 00:04:36.540 --> 00:04:44.399 I mean, because midnight, I think, benefits from that, those, you know, the visuals of outside, which are bluer, I think. 59 00:04:44.459 --> 00:04:51.360 But, you know, the planet that's made of diamonds, you know, and we've gone on from there, but everything is so black. 60 00:04:51.420 --> 00:05:01.259 Like everything is so black and you call that aquarium, obvious it's a quarry, but like a quarry, I don't think has ever looked quite as good as that in Doctor Who. 61 00:05:01.379 --> 00:05:03.120 I agree with you. 62 00:05:03.180 --> 00:05:08.339 Those outside visuals of the base in the long distance and just looking up at the stars, I thought was stunning. 63 00:05:08.399 --> 00:05:10.560 I think it's partly the direction too. 64 00:05:10.620 --> 00:05:22.620 I just think it's very solidly directed. which is a great trip last week and and and here the performances and what she had shooty doing and the guest stars. 65 00:05:22.680 --> 00:05:29.279 I mean, obviously there's a writing, but, you know, I think it was a great 12 punch for Amanda as the director. 66 00:05:29.339 --> 00:05:41.160 I do want to spend some time later talking about the performances because I think, you know, this is an episode with that relies very, very heavily on the quality of the performances. 67 00:05:41.879 --> 00:05:43.980 Have you watched Unleashed yet? 68 00:05:44.040 --> 00:05:45.120 I haven't. 69 00:05:45.180 --> 00:05:45.420 No. 70 00:05:45.480 --> 00:06:03.540 No, um, so, so, in a leash, they talked about how the concept for this episode was, was brought to Russell, and everything, everything was there, basically, a poisonous planet, you know, something lurking to kill people, and he suggested bringing the monster back. 71 00:06:03.600 --> 00:06:05.759 So it was originally not going to be the monster. 72 00:06:05.819 --> 00:06:06.959 It was going to be another monster. 73 00:06:07.019 --> 00:06:12.180 And so he just went, oh, I could do a sequel to this story. 74 00:06:12.240 --> 00:06:16.379 And then it just adds so much depth to it. 75 00:06:16.439 --> 00:06:18.420 Oh, and the fear on Chuti's face. 76 00:06:18.480 --> 00:06:18.779 Sorry. 77 00:06:18.839 --> 00:06:20.759 I really enjoyed this episode. 78 00:06:20.819 --> 00:06:30.959 Yeah, so I mean, again, I think we'll talk about why exactly we've chosen to make this a sequel to Midnight, where it doesn't seem to need to have been that. 79 00:06:31.019 --> 00:06:34.139 Had other people been spoiled, though? 80 00:06:34.199 --> 00:06:39.420 I had a vague sense that this was going to be a sequel to midnight. 81 00:06:39.480 --> 00:06:44.639 I can't remember where I read it, and I don't seek out Doctor Who fan theory videos or anything like that. 82 00:06:44.699 --> 00:06:48.000 But somehow I got the sense that it was going to be a sequel to midnight. 83 00:06:48.060 --> 00:06:54.959 And I remember kind of going, why are we talking about galvanic radiation when x tonic radiation is right there? 84 00:06:55.019 --> 00:06:57.899 And there it was. 85 00:06:58.079 --> 00:06:59.879 I had no idea. 86 00:06:59.879 --> 00:07:02.220 That it was going to be a sequel at all. 87 00:07:02.339 --> 00:07:18.959 And so, you know, as you were saying, like they were saying, girl, vanic, and then when it all just started to turn to, you know, extonic and, you know, diamonds and you, the soundscape just started to go and shoot his look and I'm just they're going, 0 my goodness, they're not doing this. 88 00:07:19.019 --> 00:07:20.519 They're not doing it. they are doing this. 89 00:07:20.579 --> 00:07:24.240 This is just a wonderful captured moment. 90 00:07:24.240 --> 00:07:29.759 And I can see why Russell would have, you know, seized on that because I think it works really, really well. 91 00:07:29.879 --> 00:07:35.220 Um, I love the direction. of that slow realisation. 92 00:07:35.279 --> 00:07:38.160 It's just seeded through the entire episode. 93 00:07:38.279 --> 00:07:51.240 But the moment I had an inkling in the back of my head was when Alice does that strange look, which is Sky's eye dart movement from midnight. 94 00:07:51.300 --> 00:07:53.639 I was like, why does that look so familiar? 95 00:07:53.759 --> 00:07:55.920 I just had chills down my spine. 96 00:07:55.980 --> 00:08:01.079 But didn't didn't clock until just before that reveal. 97 00:08:01.079 --> 00:08:02.519 I was like, oh, oh, okay. 98 00:08:03.540 --> 00:08:09.480 Yeah, I wasn't spoiled, but it is when they said the word ex-tonic, I thought, oh, yeah, here we are. 99 00:08:09.540 --> 00:08:16.740 And I thought, I've got to admit that I would, I didn't have that vanish thrill of going, oh, we're back here again. 100 00:08:16.800 --> 00:08:21.120 He's a, he's the, he's the pteroreptils back for another runner. 101 00:08:21.120 --> 00:08:23.399 No, I didn't got to feel like that. 102 00:08:23.459 --> 00:08:28.139 I, I, and I did kind of think, oh, this is why we've been taking it so slowly. 103 00:08:28.199 --> 00:08:36.659 Like, I think this is why the pace in that middle section has been so so deliberate and so set up in that kind of way. 104 00:08:36.720 --> 00:08:46.200 Um, I did like, I think they've made the right choice to show a little bit more of it than they did during midnight. 105 00:08:46.259 --> 00:08:57.659 I think it would have been unsatisfying to not show anything and they chose really smartly to just show those little bits of the jump scares, those things you can't quite see. 106 00:08:57.720 --> 00:09:01.080 And so when when they happen, you kind of, the 1st thing that happened. 107 00:09:01.139 --> 00:09:03.240 I didn't know whether Belinda had imagined it or not. 108 00:09:03.299 --> 00:09:15.659 And then you sort of see just, and even later in the episode, there's just a few kind of reverse shots where it's kind of just creeping around in the, in the shadows and there, that's, I think that was smart. 109 00:09:15.720 --> 00:09:17.519 That was a good thing. that a good thing to do. 110 00:09:17.580 --> 00:09:20.039 Johnny, I just find it freaky. 111 00:09:20.100 --> 00:09:24.659 You know, and even watching it the 2nd time, I didn't even try to pause it because I just didn't want to know. 112 00:09:24.720 --> 00:09:25.919 Yeah. 113 00:09:25.919 --> 00:09:27.299 I did try. 114 00:09:30.299 --> 00:09:32.039 I found it. 115 00:09:32.159 --> 00:09:33.539 I can't say I found it scary. 116 00:09:33.600 --> 00:09:37.139 I can't say I found it edge of my seat kind of stuff. 117 00:09:37.200 --> 00:09:55.440 And actually, I was thinking a little bit back to Lux last week and how those group of barkers on the chairs that Russell had given us to say, to show us how fans watch and read Doctor Who, and how, you know, how literate we've all become. 118 00:09:55.500 --> 00:09:59.220 You know, they say things like, you know, oh, we're 30 minutes in. 119 00:09:59.279 --> 00:10:00.840 Youve got to go back and start the 3rd act. 120 00:10:00.899 --> 00:10:03.840 You know, you've already heard what's going to happen here. 121 00:10:03.899 --> 00:10:10.740 And I felt a little bit of, I can sort of see the workings a little bit too clearly in this. 122 00:10:10.799 --> 00:10:12.360 And think back to midnight. 123 00:10:12.419 --> 00:10:15.840 I just could not, you know, back then we were on. 124 00:10:15.899 --> 00:10:23.759 I genuinely didn't know where that episode was heading at any stage in its in its duration. 125 00:10:23.820 --> 00:10:34.139 Whereas this, I felt, I think the reason why I wasn't entirely sucked into this world and completely engrossed by it was I could sort of see the script working. 126 00:10:34.259 --> 00:10:37.019 Um, which is not say the script is bad. 127 00:10:37.080 --> 00:10:38.279 It's not, it's really good. 128 00:10:38.340 --> 00:10:42.960 And the direction is really good as you say, but I just, I could see, I could read it a bit clearly, I think. 129 00:10:43.019 --> 00:10:53.279 For me, I think that it's this era's iteration of this thing, and I think that that's something that we need to do every so often, do you know what I mean? 130 00:10:53.340 --> 00:10:58.019 And so I don't think this is as inventive as the source material. 131 00:10:58.080 --> 00:11:02.700 But what I do think is that it's a really good kind of tone piece. 132 00:11:02.700 --> 00:11:25.500 And given that the traditional science fiction episodes of this era have been the Starbeast and Space Babies and the robot revolution, You know, I think that they were probably Doctor Who fans who are gagging for something just a little bit more Trad, and I'm glad that they got it. 133 00:11:25.559 --> 00:11:31.080 Not that I didn't like those other 3 episodes I just mentioned because I did. 134 00:11:31.259 --> 00:11:39.059 But it was kind of nice to say, all right, well, Doctor Who can still do its old standards and it can just do it incredibly well. 135 00:11:39.059 --> 00:12:01.919 And just even wandering through the, the quarters, the crew quarters and stuff, you know, just the details of those sets, the way that they've been dressed, all of the stuff, the junk everywhere, the evidence of, um, you know, the, the fight and the deterioration and all of that sort of thing, crew quarters that looked really nothing like, you think about the impossible planet, right? 136 00:12:01.980 --> 00:12:04.320 right And how impressed we were by it. 137 00:12:04.379 --> 00:12:08.580 And now you go back there and you think, there are a lot of painted balsa wood flats. 138 00:12:10.799 --> 00:12:14.940 You know, like, but you don't get that sense here. 139 00:12:15.000 --> 00:12:29.460 And I think, I think because TV is a visual medium and because Doctor Who is about putting strange things on TV, I'm actually okay with this, like, I don't think it's as good as midnight, but I think nearly nothing in Doctor Who is as good as midnight. 140 00:12:29.519 --> 00:12:37.379 And and I just think this is so confidently done, just so kind of engaging and exciting. 141 00:12:37.440 --> 00:12:48.179 And I do think the one thing it does, that scene in the middle where just 5 people get killed, where it's just like, oh, we're killing 5 characters right now and it's just like, and now we're surrounded. 142 00:12:48.240 --> 00:12:51.899 Now we're in the same situation, but now we're surrounded in dead bodies. 143 00:12:51.960 --> 00:12:55.919 And I just think that is really, really something extraordinary. 144 00:12:55.980 --> 00:12:57.419 I agree. 145 00:12:57.480 --> 00:13:05.039 It's something, you know, it's not it's not as unique as Midnight, but it's a good solid suspense. horror thriller episode. 146 00:13:05.100 --> 00:13:10.679 Like some of some of it, like, and the death, the death is... were you impressed by the death Tod? 147 00:13:10.740 --> 00:13:12.120 Yes, James. 148 00:13:12.480 --> 00:13:14.279 Like a death. 149 00:13:14.340 --> 00:13:15.000 And you know what? 150 00:13:15.000 --> 00:13:15.899 Also, I was impressed. 151 00:13:15.960 --> 00:13:18.840 It's that strange, sinister way you said that, Todd. 152 00:13:18.899 --> 00:13:21.840 Yeah, watch out. 153 00:13:22.620 --> 00:13:43.679 Um, I was also impressed by the um, the TARDIS costume cabinet because I rid her of the fact that we, the TARDIS managed to sense the environment and give them the exactly right ace suits to match those helmets so we could get Belinda and the doctor screaming as they were plummeting towards the planet. 154 00:13:43.799 --> 00:13:44.340 I loved that. 155 00:13:44.399 --> 00:13:51.659 I know some people won't, but I just like the fact that the costume cabinets there and the TARDIS can just sense what we need. 156 00:13:51.720 --> 00:13:53.399 It's been upgraded. 157 00:13:53.460 --> 00:13:56.039 It's the new psychic paper, I think. 158 00:13:56.100 --> 00:13:56.879 Do you know what I mean? 159 00:13:56.940 --> 00:13:59.820 It's just like, and now we'll go in this door and out that door. 160 00:13:59.879 --> 00:14:06.659 We'll have some Britney, and we're going to be dressed for the episode, and it doesn't actually matter, and we did it last week, and we're doing it this week. 161 00:14:06.720 --> 00:14:14.759 And just as we've said before, having a doctor who dresses for the adventure is so great. 162 00:14:14.820 --> 00:14:17.879 It's so, you know, it's like having heart and all back. 163 00:14:17.940 --> 00:14:19.259 It's just terrific. 164 00:14:19.320 --> 00:14:20.460 I love it. so much. 165 00:14:20.519 --> 00:14:23.759 It's one of my favourite things. where the budget went. 166 00:14:23.820 --> 00:14:25.379 Yeah, yeah. 167 00:14:25.440 --> 00:14:25.980 Well, yeah. 168 00:14:26.039 --> 00:14:26.519 Yeah. 169 00:14:26.580 --> 00:14:30.179 So why are we making it a sequel to midnight? 170 00:14:30.240 --> 00:14:39.539 I mean, given the mid 90s, one of the best Doctor Who episodes ever, and it's only going to kind of invite sort of comparisons. 171 00:14:39.600 --> 00:14:43.379 Um, what do you think the reason for it was? 172 00:14:44.340 --> 00:14:46.559 It's never resolved. 173 00:14:46.679 --> 00:14:49.080 You know, that thing is still alive. 174 00:14:49.799 --> 00:14:51.179 Yeah? 175 00:14:51.240 --> 00:14:54.299 Like, it's there on that planet. they don't kill it. 176 00:14:54.360 --> 00:14:56.279 They just kill Skye. 177 00:14:56.340 --> 00:14:58.860 So like that's always been a loose thread to pull. 178 00:14:58.919 --> 00:15:11.100 But I think you also run the risk of saying, if you didn't have that in there, You might run into the criticism of, well, yes, they tried to do another midnight, like with a similar creature and it wasn't as good. 179 00:15:11.159 --> 00:15:23.940 But by by doing this and tying it in with it and allowing the creature to evolve after 400,000 years, I think is actually very clever and the strengthens the episode for me. 180 00:15:24.000 --> 00:15:44.039 I mean, I think this era of the show has a real desire to bring back elements from the past and to bring back old enemies, and it has done this, and old friends and allies, and it is, it is really infused in this era much more than it is in, in other parts of modern Doctor Who. 181 00:15:44.100 --> 00:15:47.100 And I'm I'm fine. 182 00:15:47.159 --> 00:15:48.000 I'm fine with that. 183 00:15:48.059 --> 00:15:57.299 But I think that it's difficult to, it's difficult to watch this and not think about all the fantastic things that midnight managed to do. 184 00:15:57.419 --> 00:16:24.179 And one of the reasons, one of the reasons I think I didn't really buy into this, I know we want to talk about the characters a bit, but in midnight, that that creature brought out the worst in those supporting characters and really, it really made you see how he could have this visceral effect on people who felt like us, the mum, the dad, the kid, that professor, you know, all that. 185 00:16:24.240 --> 00:16:27.059 And so it really transformed those people around it. 186 00:16:27.120 --> 00:16:31.679 And here I just didn't really connect with any of the. 187 00:16:31.740 --> 00:16:38.700 I mean, Russell said on Instagram that he was thinking about calling this episode the 13 instead of the well-meaning the 13 people who dropped that. 188 00:16:38.759 --> 00:16:43.500 I'm really glad he didn't because actually I haven't I've met hardly any of those 13. 189 00:16:43.679 --> 00:16:46.980 Do you remember last week they were talking about characters who didn't have surnames? 190 00:16:47.039 --> 00:16:53.700 And this week we get a set of characters who don't even have 1st names who are true for 7 and super 8 and things. 191 00:16:53.820 --> 00:17:00.600 And so for me, I couldn't really, this is one of those things I think midnight does really well. 192 00:17:00.659 --> 00:17:04.500 All its elements combine in a kind of plot-like way, which is really cool. 193 00:17:04.619 --> 00:17:10.859 I think midnight is doing something quite different, and in midnight, the villains are the people. 194 00:17:10.920 --> 00:17:13.680 And so it's people under pressure. 195 00:17:13.740 --> 00:17:17.160 And, you know, you've got that disgusting family beef and Valerie. 196 00:17:17.220 --> 00:17:17.819 And what's her name? 197 00:17:17.880 --> 00:17:19.440 Val or something I can't remember. 198 00:17:19.500 --> 00:17:31.799 You know, like Colin Morgan's parents who are just horrible daily mail readers, you know, who, you know, the moment they think there's a refugee somewhere nearby, they're putting people out the airlock, you know. 199 00:17:31.859 --> 00:17:39.059 And, and, and so that's a story all about that, about people under pressure turning on one another and being evil. 200 00:17:39.059 --> 00:17:44.640 And the, the evil of the, the monster is, is kind of uh, to the side. 201 00:17:44.700 --> 00:17:48.839 The monster is inventive and interesting, but mostly it operates through sky. 202 00:17:48.900 --> 00:17:50.579 Here that doesn't happen at all. 203 00:17:50.640 --> 00:17:58.380 We don't have it possess a person and we don't have it really inspiring people to be evil except that, you know, people are scared or whatever. 204 00:17:58.440 --> 00:18:01.680 So it's not interrogating those characters in any way. 205 00:18:01.740 --> 00:18:07.680 And so I think it is doing something quite quite different, which is why it's a little bit surprising that they go for it. 206 00:18:07.740 --> 00:18:11.579 I suspect that it's giving the doctor a relationship with it. 207 00:18:11.819 --> 00:18:24.180 And so the doctor gets to react to it at the very end when he goes up to Alice and looks her in the face, but he's talking to the creature and he hears the creature talking to him. 208 00:18:24.240 --> 00:18:29.460 And I think, you know, that's one of Shooty's best moments as the doctor. 209 00:18:29.519 --> 00:18:31.200 I think that's an amazing performance. 210 00:18:31.259 --> 00:18:33.660 And I think that's why it's there. 211 00:18:33.720 --> 00:18:49.259 I thought that was very powerful and I certainly think that and I concur with you, that his performance in this episode and certainly those moments and his relationship, both with Alice and with Shire, were really well done. 212 00:18:49.319 --> 00:18:58.019 You know, I've been a bit critical of him being a one, two, 3 note sort of actor, but this week really, he shined through very much so. 213 00:18:58.799 --> 00:19:20.880 I love that that shot, like that that expression on his face. is so prolonged and so full of fear and harks back to tenants, kind of fixated, um, stare as he's starting to be like overtaken and and, and you, you kind of going, oh, is it actually going to take him now? 214 00:19:20.940 --> 00:19:22.559 Has he been possessed? 215 00:19:22.619 --> 00:19:24.779 Is it going back to its old playbook? 216 00:19:24.839 --> 00:19:27.480 And is it going to actually take him? 217 00:19:27.539 --> 00:19:33.000 Um, And it's his relationship with it is one of visceral hatred. 218 00:19:33.059 --> 00:19:38.700 You know, and this is something, again, in this era, there are really clear lines about who's good and who's bad. 219 00:19:38.819 --> 00:19:43.019 And this episode, he calls the thing vile. 220 00:19:43.079 --> 00:19:45.240 He calls it a stone cold murderer. 221 00:19:45.299 --> 00:19:54.420 And the same way that Alan in episode one is just that he's just a bad egg, you know, like, and the same way that the gods of the pantheon are just bad. 222 00:19:54.480 --> 00:19:59.460 They're just, there's not the faulty technology like in Moffat story would be, you know. 223 00:19:59.519 --> 00:20:03.000 It's not even that tenony thing of, oh, I've got to give it a chance. 224 00:20:03.059 --> 00:20:05.819 I've got to hug it 1st and see if it really wants to die. 225 00:20:05.880 --> 00:20:07.740 No, it's it's just this thing. 226 00:20:07.799 --> 00:20:11.759 These things are just, they're really clear moral. 227 00:20:11.819 --> 00:20:15.240 After the Chimolera, it's actually a really interesting reaction. 228 00:20:15.299 --> 00:20:19.380 There's a really clear moral line here about what's right and what's wrong. 229 00:20:19.500 --> 00:20:28.859 Yeah, although, you know, his 1st sort of regular episode has the snot monster turning out to have been another victim all along. 230 00:20:28.920 --> 00:20:33.180 So that's because capitalism is what's evil about, right? 231 00:20:33.240 --> 00:20:36.420 Capitalism is always the secret villa, I think. 232 00:20:36.480 --> 00:20:38.220 Unless you... 233 00:20:38.220 --> 00:20:48.059 I want to talk also about the incredible performance by Rose Ailing Ellis, who I had heard of before. 234 00:20:48.119 --> 00:20:51.900 A friend of mine at work really wanted her to be the next companion. 235 00:20:51.960 --> 00:20:53.099 So I had heard of her. 236 00:20:53.099 --> 00:20:57.660 And I just think she is absolutely magnificent. 237 00:20:57.720 --> 00:21:00.480 Just incredible, absolutely brilliant. 238 00:21:00.539 --> 00:21:22.259 So she worked, um, like, with the script writers to improve the inclusiveness and language and, and, and how, like how the characters reacted to her and how she reacted to the characters to make it more believable, um, from the point of view of the deaf person. 239 00:21:22.319 --> 00:21:42.000 Well, she was just absolutely stunning, the whole performance, and, you know, the moments, like when people turned dead backs on her, and what she could just convey the emotions in her voice and her look, and you just wanted her, that character to be able to survive and go back to her daughter so, so much. 240 00:21:42.059 --> 00:21:45.660 I was just stunned by her performance. 241 00:21:45.720 --> 00:21:47.220 I just thought it was utterly compelling. 242 00:21:47.339 --> 00:21:59.880 And I think it's a great performance matched by a great character creation, someone who's keeping secrets, but we're still sympathetic with them, even though they haven't told us the full truth. 243 00:22:00.000 --> 00:22:07.500 You know, and the truth gradually emerges and they're a flawed character and we may not always, sometimes we support what she's doing. 244 00:22:07.559 --> 00:22:11.519 Sometimes we don't, but that's a really great central character. 245 00:22:11.579 --> 00:22:16.500 But can we say the same for the rest of the characters in thing? 246 00:22:16.559 --> 00:22:21.539 You know, like I, for Shire and for Salamar. 247 00:22:21.599 --> 00:22:25.319 They're the sort of archetypes that really don't have much behind them. 248 00:22:25.380 --> 00:22:35.759 So I, I love that Rose's character is literally at the centre of this episode, but there's not, there's not the same depth applied to everyone else. 249 00:22:35.819 --> 00:22:51.539 There's not because there's so many of them, but I actually think Shia as the commander was utterly brilliant, and I thought her performance was as good as, as Rose, and you could so easily have had her not trusting the doctor and going down that road. 250 00:22:51.660 --> 00:22:56.940 Obviously, you always have the 2nd in command that's going to cause problems and I was okay with that. 251 00:22:57.000 --> 00:23:00.900 And then we had Mo as well and we had, you know, a few of the others around there. 252 00:23:00.960 --> 00:23:05.400 But that was not a problem for me because Shire was so well drawn, I thought. 253 00:23:05.519 --> 00:23:11.640 I think that the tendency to have a reduced supporting cast in a 45 minute Doctor Who episode isn't a bad one. 254 00:23:11.819 --> 00:23:26.759 And in the chipmal era, we often had a very small sort of supporting cast, here having a supporting cast, but with a lot of bit players, all of whom get a, you know, line or 2 of dialogue, just makes the thing seem bigger and maybe a bit more expensive. 255 00:23:26.819 --> 00:23:58.380 I want to shout out to Gaz Chaudhry, who played Kai, who was the soldier with the shaved head, who followed along with Cassio, you know, 2nded Cassio's red code declaration, who wears a prosthetic, and I didn't realise all the way through the 1st watching, but he has a prosthetic, and he was a former Paralympian playing wheelchair basketball, who has turned to acting. 256 00:23:58.440 --> 00:24:00.480 And I thought he was really great. 257 00:24:00.539 --> 00:24:04.619 I thought he was kind of cute and just kind of compelling to watch. 258 00:24:04.680 --> 00:24:11.819 But I was kind of surprised because watching it the 2nd time through after I knew it was very clear, but I didn't actually pick up on it the 1st time. 259 00:24:11.940 --> 00:24:13.140 He was great. 260 00:24:13.200 --> 00:24:18.660 And I think those call 4 who were part of the 13 were really good. 261 00:24:18.720 --> 00:24:38.880 And I think having Belinda there, and again, Ash commented how wonderful she was, and I just thought, just her empathy and bonding with all those different characters, and then the whole thing about, well, what's happened to the earth and humans, tying all that in around all of that, just worked so well. 262 00:24:38.940 --> 00:24:50.339 I mean, I cannot, um, say enough, how good she is in the role as Belinda and that really, really helps, you know, support Shooty and the whole production. 263 00:24:50.400 --> 00:24:52.079 Yeah, she's outstanding. 264 00:24:52.140 --> 00:25:03.720 I mean, she, she has this really great presence without drawing attention to herself in any way, and yet when she steps into a scene, you can't seem to take your eyes off her. 265 00:25:03.779 --> 00:25:10.859 So she's got that gift of kind of being an ensemble member and them being the lead in a scene at any one time. 266 00:25:10.920 --> 00:25:21.119 Um, And I think, you know, if um, she didn't have quite as much humour to bring to this episode because obviously it's got a different tone to it this episode. 267 00:25:21.180 --> 00:25:22.799 But in the previous stuff. 268 00:25:22.859 --> 00:25:34.980 I've loved her slightly Barbie relationship with the doctor and that she really is sort of, she is really sort of bewildered by why anyone would be impressed by him. 269 00:25:35.039 --> 00:25:39.539 Like, it's not like, we've seen other people go, well, I'm not particularly impressed by you, doctors. 270 00:25:39.660 --> 00:25:45.720 She's kind of trying to work out what it is about him, that anyone would sort of would sort of gravitate to him for. 271 00:25:45.779 --> 00:26:07.380 I think the thing of having the both of them discover at the same time that there are no more humans and no more earth is a good call as well. because we've had lots of, you know, the doctor finds out, I think, and conceals it in order to kind of preserve the companion's feelings and stuff, and these maintains her agency and maintains her being on an equal level with him. 272 00:26:07.440 --> 00:26:09.299 They've both found it out at the same time. 273 00:26:09.299 --> 00:26:12.720 And neither one of them is super freaking out about it more than the other. 274 00:26:12.779 --> 00:26:13.799 I thought that was really good. 275 00:26:13.859 --> 00:26:19.500 I do want to just wind up, I think, by just talking about the end, though. 276 00:26:19.559 --> 00:26:21.720 I had a little moment. 277 00:26:21.900 --> 00:26:27.180 So Trooper 79 and Alice go up in the lift. 278 00:26:27.420 --> 00:26:30.839 But the lift indicates there are 4 people on it. 279 00:26:30.900 --> 00:26:34.380 And then there are 4 people left alive downstairs. 280 00:26:34.380 --> 00:26:49.920 And for a 2nd I thought that because everyone else was so confident that they didn't have the thing behind them, that Belinda just concluded that she must have it behind her, but that it wasn't there at all. 281 00:26:49.980 --> 00:27:00.720 And so her being shot and Shia throwing herself down the well was all not necessary and kind of bad. 282 00:27:00.779 --> 00:27:04.619 And I had a chat with Brendan about this and Brendan had decided, no, there were 2 creatures. 283 00:27:04.680 --> 00:27:07.740 And I said, well, there's literally no hint of that in the text, so why? 284 00:27:07.859 --> 00:27:08.819 We even going there. 285 00:27:08.880 --> 00:27:10.859 Except when I rewatched. 286 00:27:10.920 --> 00:27:20.640 Belinda says that she can hear the whispering, and there is just the hint of whispering, um, in the on the soundtrack. 287 00:27:20.700 --> 00:27:26.400 Now, that could be German expressionist whispering that is just representing what she thinks she hears. 288 00:27:26.640 --> 00:27:32.880 But I think perhaps there's enough possible ambiguity there. 289 00:27:32.880 --> 00:27:38.400 In any case, what happens is that the creature escapes, which is a pretty great ending. 290 00:27:38.460 --> 00:27:43.079 I think the strong implication is that the creature escapes. 291 00:27:43.140 --> 00:27:47.640 I actually felt better about it when I thought, oh, maybe there's a 2nd creature. 292 00:27:47.700 --> 00:27:56.339 I actually felt that I felt it was a little too familiar, that ending, and then I thought, oh, hang on, maybe maybe there's another one I felt, but I... 293 00:27:56.460 --> 00:28:02.460 But can I say it's an unusual episode where the problem is solved by the very precise shooting of a companion? 294 00:28:04.200 --> 00:28:09.779 That's, and that is, that is something else I think that crept in about the doctor. 295 00:28:09.839 --> 00:28:12.900 The doctor isn't the one to solve the problem at the end. 296 00:28:12.960 --> 00:28:16.140 I always feel a bit funny about those episodes. 297 00:28:16.259 --> 00:28:25.019 There's plenty of stories that end like that and there's plenty of stories I feel completely fine about it, but there's always a moment where I think, ah, could we have made this a little bit. 298 00:28:25.079 --> 00:28:26.220 A little bit better. 299 00:28:26.400 --> 00:28:33.000 I guess the ending, like the shooting of the companion and then, is there one creature is there two? 300 00:28:33.119 --> 00:28:35.220 I did like sort of the cliffhanger right at the end. 301 00:28:35.279 --> 00:28:40.980 But yeah, around that sort of time I was there going, I'm not sure quite sure what's happening. am I buying this? 302 00:28:41.039 --> 00:28:43.259 I probably have to go back and rewatch it. 303 00:28:43.319 --> 00:28:54.000 You know, this is the one little area of the episode where I was a bit hazy on and then and then having, um, Mrs. Blood turn up and do a more of a student twist roll. 304 00:28:54.059 --> 00:29:08.220 I was, although, I was a bit like, I like the fact that Mrs. Fudd was just always on earth and commenting and being in everyday clothes and now she's something a bit different, although she did have a little iPad and was most pleased about the vindicator. 305 00:29:08.279 --> 00:29:09.000 I did like that line. 306 00:29:10.019 --> 00:29:11.880 I have a question. 307 00:29:12.180 --> 00:29:14.039 Who did it better? 308 00:29:14.099 --> 00:29:15.960 The well? 309 00:29:15.960 --> 00:29:19.019 Or sleep no more. 310 00:29:20.759 --> 00:29:26.700 So, because sleep no more, of course, ends in that same way, doesn't it, with the creature escaping? 311 00:29:26.759 --> 00:29:37.440 I kind of like the end of sleep no more because the implication was that everyone watching the episode would die, that it was actually going to kill us as the viewers because it was set up to do that. 312 00:29:37.500 --> 00:29:45.660 It was a message that was being encoded in the episode in the flashes of static that we had all spent the last 45 minutes watching. 313 00:29:45.720 --> 00:29:52.319 And it's a little bit like the moment where you learn that the Daleks are going to turn up on New Year's Day or whatever in the middle of Dalek Master Plan. 314 00:29:52.380 --> 00:29:54.720 You know, we've got a week and they'll be here. 315 00:29:54.900 --> 00:29:57.779 So you're threatening the audience is kind of good. 316 00:29:57.839 --> 00:30:03.660 I don't think that worked in a way. and I'm much less down on it than Brendan is. 317 00:30:03.960 --> 00:30:07.380 I think this was a little bit more effective, I think. 318 00:30:07.440 --> 00:30:10.079 I think I've blocked all of sleep no more out. 319 00:30:10.140 --> 00:30:15.900 I just can't remember anything that happened in it, and I don't think I remembered much of this happening in a while I was watching it. 320 00:30:15.960 --> 00:30:20.700 But I like the ending of this episode without the reveal at the end. 321 00:30:20.759 --> 00:30:24.900 I liked that Shia took it into the well and threw it off with her. 322 00:30:25.019 --> 00:30:32.700 If nothing else, because that was then the reason for the well-being in the plot, because actually it had been prefigured really heavily. 323 00:30:32.759 --> 00:30:36.599 It hadn't actually performed a function and then I thought that was quite neat. 324 00:30:36.660 --> 00:30:39.240 And I would have been quite happy without the little bit at the end. 325 00:30:39.359 --> 00:30:40.859 There you go. 326 00:30:41.519 --> 00:30:48.119 Um, I didn't have a problem with that anything because it, we do not know how that this creature works. 327 00:30:48.180 --> 00:30:52.079 We only know how the humans interpret this creature works, right? 328 00:30:52.140 --> 00:30:54.960 So, Is it killable? 329 00:30:55.019 --> 00:30:57.720 No, is it like, we don't know. 330 00:30:57.779 --> 00:31:05.099 Um, Like, we think it's been destroyed or at least wounded, but the doctor runs back to see it. 331 00:31:05.160 --> 00:31:07.859 So he delays delays their escape. 332 00:31:07.859 --> 00:31:12.000 And then he runs after her and delays their escape again. 333 00:31:12.059 --> 00:31:15.059 So is that monster running along? 334 00:31:15.059 --> 00:31:16.140 Because now it's free. 335 00:31:16.200 --> 00:31:18.059 She's committed suicide. 336 00:31:18.119 --> 00:31:18.960 It's just free. 337 00:31:19.019 --> 00:31:20.220 You can do whatever the hell it wants. 338 00:31:20.279 --> 00:31:23.759 It's followed to him onto the ship and gone after them. 339 00:31:23.819 --> 00:31:24.960 That's how I read that. 340 00:31:25.500 --> 00:31:35.460 It's certainly true that its appearance on the ship is telling us that the humans have not deduced everything that's true about it, that it doesn't operate according to the rules that we've worked out. 341 00:31:35.519 --> 00:31:37.019 And I think that's a good choice. 342 00:31:37.140 --> 00:31:39.240 Yeah, it's very, it's interesting. 343 00:31:39.299 --> 00:31:44.700 I don't know whether I, I, I really love all of that ambiguity, perhaps at the end. 344 00:31:44.759 --> 00:31:54.240 But in the end, the whole thing is a package, I just thought was solidly acted, solidly directed, executed just beautifully. 345 00:31:54.299 --> 00:31:56.519 You know, it's as good as last week's for me. 346 00:31:56.579 --> 00:31:57.960 It's it's that 9 out of 10. 347 00:31:58.200 --> 00:32:00.839 And I'm really happy with the way this season's going. 348 00:32:01.559 --> 00:32:04.680 So that's all the time we have for this week. 349 00:32:04.740 --> 00:32:23.579 I'm going to plug 500-year Diaries series 2, our 1st episode on the Dalek Invasion of Earth was released last Sunday, and this upcoming Sunday, we're going to be following the 2nd coming of the cybermen in the moon base. 350 00:32:23.640 --> 00:32:25.440 So that'll be this Sunday. 351 00:32:25.500 --> 00:32:40.079 You can keep up with all of our Doctor Who podcasts on Flight3entirety.com on Blue Sky or FTE podcast on Mastodon if you're one of the dozen or so people that uses that social network. 352 00:32:40.140 --> 00:32:51.480 Meanwhile, untitled Star Trek Project continues unabated and you can catch us most Fridays for episodes of Star Trek from across the history of the franchise. 353 00:32:51.539 --> 00:33:02.339 And if you download this week's episode of 500-year diary, I promise that there will be something there about what Brandon's doing podcast wise in the show notes. 354 00:33:02.400 --> 00:33:11.700 So all that remains is for me to say, until next time, may Shooty Gatois offer you the chance to walk the universe on his back. 355 00:33:11.759 --> 00:33:14.819 Thank you very much for listening and good night. 356 00:33:14.880 --> 00:33:15.900 Good night. 357 00:33:15.960 --> 00:33:16.859 Good night. 358 00:33:16.920 --> 00:33:17.759 See you soon.