WEBVTT NOTE This transcript was created on 2026-05-02 at 15:29:37 1 00:00:00.000 --> 00:00:03.180 Hello, dear listener, and welcome back to the 2nd Grace and 2 00:00:03.180 --> 00:00:07.200 Bountiful Human Empire, the only Doctor Who flashcast that doesn't 3 00:00:07.200 --> 00:00:10.439 just sit there watching Doctor Who, surrounded by merch and giving 4 00:00:10.439 --> 00:00:14.400 its scores out of 10, we podcast about it as well. 5 00:00:14.460 --> 00:00:16.260 I'm Nathan. 6 00:00:16.320 --> 00:00:17.460 I'm Brendan. 7 00:00:17.519 --> 00:00:18.719 I'm Peter. 8 00:00:18.780 --> 00:00:20.640 I'm Todd. 9 00:00:20.699 --> 00:00:25.260 I'm Bugs Bunny and a push-up bra and Sigourney Weaver blonde wig 10 00:00:25.260 --> 00:00:25.859 for this one. 11 00:00:26.879 --> 00:00:32.820 So we're here to talk about the 2nd episode of season 2 of the new 12 00:00:32.820 --> 00:00:37.979 era, which is Lux by Russell T. Davis and directed by Amanda 13 00:00:37.979 --> 00:00:40.500 Brachi, who I know literally nothing about. 14 00:00:41.159 --> 00:00:46.799 And I want to start us off by just going around the group and 15 00:00:46.799 --> 00:00:50.700 talking a little bit about how we felt this landed. 16 00:00:50.759 --> 00:00:54.119 Let's start with you, Todd. 17 00:00:54.299 --> 00:00:56.219 I was captivated. 18 00:00:56.280 --> 00:01:00.479 I thought it was a visual tour de Force, and I actually felt for 19 00:01:00.479 --> 00:01:01.500 once. 20 00:01:01.859 --> 00:01:05.459 Russell T. Davies hit all the marks really well, push boundaries 21 00:01:05.459 --> 00:01:06.060 without going over. 22 00:01:06.780 --> 00:01:09.959 Yeah, I thought this was absolutely magnificent. 23 00:01:10.019 --> 00:01:13.500 It is possibly the best of the era so far and that's considering 24 00:01:13.500 --> 00:01:17.700 that I really loved things like dot and bubble, boom, 73 yards 25 00:01:17.700 --> 00:01:18.239 last year. 26 00:01:18.299 --> 00:01:19.680 So it's in great company. 27 00:01:19.739 --> 00:01:21.120 Richard? 28 00:01:21.180 --> 00:01:25.079 Oh, I hate to be bland, but I agree with everyone. 29 00:01:25.140 --> 00:01:27.599 Maybe it's the best arc so far. 30 00:01:27.659 --> 00:01:31.980 I'm really loving how the H word is being brought in and makes 31 00:01:31.980 --> 00:01:34.980 more sense now and just seems to have more impetus. 32 00:01:35.099 --> 00:01:37.379 Everything felt to me a bit messy last year. 33 00:01:37.439 --> 00:01:41.760 This is my 1st go on this flash cuss, so I'm going backwards, but 34 00:01:41.760 --> 00:01:45.719 I really loved how it handled things that were touched on last 35 00:01:45.719 --> 00:01:50.760 year, but socially and politically as well as narratively, and 36 00:01:50.760 --> 00:01:53.819 it's gorgeous, and it looks sumptuous. 37 00:01:53.879 --> 00:01:56.340 Can we just say marigold, I think is my safe word for this. 38 00:01:56.400 --> 00:02:00.359 The dress, I was waiting for Todd to talk about Belinda's hair. 39 00:02:00.420 --> 00:02:04.859 I want to hear his opinion on that Divine, it's just gorgeous to 40 00:02:04.859 --> 00:02:05.340 look at. 41 00:02:05.400 --> 00:02:05.879 It really is. 42 00:02:06.000 --> 00:02:07.859 And Peter. 43 00:02:07.980 --> 00:02:10.800 Well, 1st of all, Richard, I want to say, if that's a big call 44 00:02:10.800 --> 00:02:14.639 calling it the best arc so far when 1966, the arc is right in 45 00:02:14.639 --> 00:02:15.300 front of me. 46 00:02:15.960 --> 00:02:21.120 I think this was, I would agree, possibly the most successful 47 00:02:21.120 --> 00:02:22.500 shooty episode so far. 48 00:02:22.560 --> 00:02:26.639 I think the 1st 15 minutes are actually a very good traditional 49 00:02:26.639 --> 00:02:29.939 Doctor Who set up an investigation and I would have had no issue 50 00:02:29.939 --> 00:02:32.400 if the episode had continued along those lines. 51 00:02:32.460 --> 00:02:36.539 It reminded me heavily of the idiot's lantern, I think, and I also 52 00:02:36.539 --> 00:02:37.199 like that story. 53 00:02:37.259 --> 00:02:40.080 But then when it spins off into something altogether more 54 00:02:40.080 --> 00:02:41.939 interesting and left field. 55 00:02:42.000 --> 00:02:45.240 Um, it turns into a different episode and I'm also looking good 56 00:02:45.240 --> 00:02:45.419 for that. 57 00:02:45.479 --> 00:02:49.020 Yeah, I think Russell's discovered a new thing that Doctor Who can 58 00:02:49.020 --> 00:02:50.939 do and we seem to be doing it once a year. 59 00:02:51.000 --> 00:02:57.360 And so we've had the giggle, the devil's chord, and now this. 60 00:02:57.419 --> 00:03:01.979 And I think, you know, they give us a chance for a spectacular 61 00:03:01.979 --> 00:03:02.699 villain. 62 00:03:02.759 --> 00:03:05.759 They give us a chance to go back to the 20th century. 63 00:03:05.819 --> 00:03:08.580 It occurs to me that going back to the 1950s is like Philip 64 00:03:08.580 --> 00:03:13.020 Inchcliffe going back to the Victorian era given how time has 65 00:03:13.020 --> 00:03:13.740 moved on. 66 00:03:13.800 --> 00:03:16.139 And it's beautifully done. 67 00:03:16.199 --> 00:03:19.080 And I think that that's probably what we should talk about next. 68 00:03:19.139 --> 00:03:24.300 What did you think about just the look of Miami 1952? 69 00:03:24.360 --> 00:03:25.680 Brandon. 70 00:03:25.740 --> 00:03:31.620 I I loved the colour of it because there's a temptation when we go 71 00:03:31.620 --> 00:03:35.400 back into history where television was black and white to assume 72 00:03:35.400 --> 00:03:37.500 that everything is sort of shades of brown with just the 73 00:03:37.500 --> 00:03:39.240 occasional pop of colour here and there. 74 00:03:39.300 --> 00:03:43.259 It reminded me of Batman the animated series where they drew all 75 00:03:43.259 --> 00:03:44.759 the backgrounds on black paper. 76 00:03:44.819 --> 00:03:49.919 So it was like we had in the exterior night scenes and in the 77 00:03:49.919 --> 00:03:53.580 cinema, we had this dark palette behind everything and then all 78 00:03:53.580 --> 00:03:55.439 this colour coming at us, absolutely beautiful. 79 00:03:55.500 --> 00:03:57.599 It kept the scales small. 80 00:03:57.659 --> 00:04:01.259 Oh, I thought, which was a benefit because you can then dress very 81 00:04:01.259 --> 00:04:02.099 successfully. 82 00:04:02.159 --> 00:04:05.280 You're not overstretching, you know, even the budget, the dock 2 83 00:04:05.280 --> 00:04:05.879 has now. 84 00:04:05.939 --> 00:04:09.840 I just thought the production as a whole was successful, and I 85 00:04:09.840 --> 00:04:13.080 think much better than the devil scored, which was attempting the 86 00:04:13.080 --> 00:04:15.780 same thing, but in some ways was hand fisted. 87 00:04:15.900 --> 00:04:19.920 So even elements like the loops of film coming out and sort of 88 00:04:19.920 --> 00:04:22.860 snagging, the doctor just looked better integrated with live 89 00:04:22.860 --> 00:04:23.339 action. 90 00:04:23.339 --> 00:04:29.040 And the final moments of Mr. Ring a Ding had a sort of majesty to 91 00:04:29.040 --> 00:04:30.480 them, the way that they were put together. 92 00:04:30.540 --> 00:04:35.339 And it followed on from last week's episode where the sequence 93 00:04:35.339 --> 00:04:38.220 where the certificates touch had some real creative visual 94 00:04:38.220 --> 00:04:39.480 storytelling to it. 95 00:04:39.540 --> 00:04:41.220 So I thought it was good. 96 00:04:41.639 --> 00:04:44.399 Todd, we need to ask you about the hair. 97 00:04:47.220 --> 00:04:49.139 I liked her here. 98 00:04:49.199 --> 00:04:50.519 I thought it was very much of a time. 99 00:04:50.579 --> 00:04:54.959 I much prefer female assistants here when it's longer, Nathan. 100 00:04:55.019 --> 00:04:56.100 Richard. 101 00:04:56.160 --> 00:05:00.540 She looked wonderful and, you know, that waste, what's with that 102 00:05:00.540 --> 00:05:01.379 impossible waste? 103 00:05:01.439 --> 00:05:04.259 I knew you'd love that line, Todd. don't know. 104 00:05:04.680 --> 00:05:09.959 Costuming was just sumptuous and it was just the lighting, the 105 00:05:09.959 --> 00:05:13.139 sets, the costumes, everything just worked so well together. 106 00:05:13.199 --> 00:05:14.939 And as I said, it was sumptuous. 107 00:05:15.000 --> 00:05:20.759 I just revelled in it as well as the cartoon aspect, which was 108 00:05:20.759 --> 00:05:22.620 just sublime. 109 00:05:22.680 --> 00:05:24.060 Yeah, well, we'll get there. 110 00:05:24.120 --> 00:05:24.660 We'll get there. 111 00:05:24.720 --> 00:05:28.920 But I want to shout out to Shooty's outfit as well and his period 112 00:05:28.920 --> 00:05:30.300 here. 113 00:05:30.360 --> 00:05:32.579 I thought that that was particularly good. 114 00:05:32.639 --> 00:05:35.819 And just the 2 of them together just looked magnificent, like 115 00:05:35.819 --> 00:05:37.980 really quite extraordinary. 116 00:05:38.040 --> 00:05:40.680 I thought, you know, like it would have been slightly cheesy for 117 00:05:40.680 --> 00:05:44.279 him to have a yellow bow tie to match her kind of yellow dress. 118 00:05:44.339 --> 00:05:45.899 And he didn't. 119 00:05:45.959 --> 00:05:48.540 But gee whiz, he looks great. 120 00:05:48.600 --> 00:05:53.160 And the decision to give him new clothes, you know, on a regular 121 00:05:53.160 --> 00:05:55.439 basis, I think ends up being a really good one. 122 00:05:55.500 --> 00:06:00.660 It's very clear that he's the doctor even in long shot and we just 123 00:06:00.660 --> 00:06:03.480 get just beautiful clothing. 124 00:06:03.540 --> 00:06:07.860 The idea that the doctor dresses up to go back into the past, which 125 00:06:07.860 --> 00:06:11.220 is something that we haven't always had, even in modern Doctor Who 126 00:06:11.220 --> 00:06:12.600 is a great thing. 127 00:06:12.660 --> 00:06:16.379 It's what Hartnell did, and I'm absolutely in favour of it. 128 00:06:16.500 --> 00:06:19.019 What did you think of 1952, Richard? 129 00:06:19.620 --> 00:06:24.180 Well, of course, the architectural motif's got me a bit giggly and 130 00:06:24.180 --> 00:06:24.720 excited. 131 00:06:24.779 --> 00:06:27.000 So architecturally, of course. 132 00:06:27.060 --> 00:06:31.740 I really like that it contains itself to just one part of a street 133 00:06:31.740 --> 00:06:35.579 and it doesn't, it's not over ambitious, and of course, that makes 134 00:06:35.579 --> 00:06:37.860 the threat tighter and harsher. 135 00:06:37.920 --> 00:06:39.720 It's the intimacy of it. 136 00:06:39.779 --> 00:06:42.360 And then, of course, there's the intimacy of the cinematic 137 00:06:42.360 --> 00:06:43.259 experience. 138 00:06:43.319 --> 00:06:44.819 This is super clever. 139 00:06:44.879 --> 00:06:47.879 Can I go on about antecedents yet or shall we do that a bit 140 00:06:47.879 --> 00:06:48.120 later? 141 00:06:48.180 --> 00:06:51.540 Well, I think it might be a good segue to talk about the cinema 142 00:06:51.540 --> 00:06:56.939 and the way cinema and things work and then we can talk about Lux 143 00:06:56.939 --> 00:06:58.740 Imperato himself. 144 00:06:58.860 --> 00:07:01.439 So yes, go on, I think. 145 00:07:01.500 --> 00:07:06.420 Well, I will lead into why the optional, like, I love the way 146 00:07:06.420 --> 00:07:13.079 they've realised Lux as an animated character from the 1940s 147 00:07:13.079 --> 00:07:13.319 actually. 148 00:07:13.439 --> 00:07:17.220 Um, because he looks like some of the ant creatures that Bugs has 149 00:07:17.220 --> 00:07:21.180 met Rabbit Rampage, um, by Chuck Jones in 1955 is the one that 150 00:07:21.180 --> 00:07:21.839 comes to mind. 151 00:07:21.899 --> 00:07:25.199 Do you remember when they're always exploding the miss on scene 152 00:07:25.199 --> 00:07:28.199 and breaking the frame and doing that very French thing that we've 153 00:07:28.199 --> 00:07:33.240 talked about on podcasts before of, you know, of breaking the 4th 154 00:07:33.240 --> 00:07:37.019 wall and animation, actually talking about what film is. 155 00:07:37.079 --> 00:07:38.639 I love that Russell is so onto this. 156 00:07:38.699 --> 00:07:40.860 It's a thinniest dream. 157 00:07:40.920 --> 00:07:42.300 And then, of course, we get to the fan folk. 158 00:07:42.360 --> 00:07:46.319 But what I love about this as a cinematic experience is that it 159 00:07:46.319 --> 00:07:52.079 really pays homage to being in a theatre, and being immersed, and 160 00:07:52.079 --> 00:07:56.279 what immersion actually means, and the danger that you feel in, um 161 00:07:56.279 --> 00:08:00.540 the immediacy of being in a theatre and watching it is completely 162 00:08:00.540 --> 00:08:01.920 different from watching something at home. 163 00:08:01.980 --> 00:08:04.319 I got a bit of that watching this. 164 00:08:04.379 --> 00:08:08.040 And when he does climb out of the screen, just as Bugs did in many 165 00:08:08.040 --> 00:08:13.680 many Chuck Jones and Matthew Maltese, Warner Brothers cartoons at 166 00:08:13.680 --> 00:08:15.959 the time, is actually quite a frightening. 167 00:08:16.019 --> 00:08:17.399 It really hits the mark. 168 00:08:17.459 --> 00:08:21.779 I'm actually thinking of the Chut Jones animation from 1953, which 169 00:08:21.779 --> 00:08:23.819 is called Daka Mark. which has... 170 00:08:23.819 --> 00:08:24.720 Duck a muck is excellent. 171 00:08:24.779 --> 00:08:25.620 Yeah, yeah. 172 00:08:25.680 --> 00:08:27.420 And again, has that sort of thing. 173 00:08:27.480 --> 00:08:29.279 And of course, that's Chuck Jones, again. 174 00:08:29.339 --> 00:08:30.420 Daffy, isn't it? 175 00:08:30.480 --> 00:08:30.839 Yeah. 176 00:08:30.899 --> 00:08:32.700 Yeah, yeah, yeah. just a year after this. 177 00:08:32.759 --> 00:08:33.960 It's good. 178 00:08:34.019 --> 00:08:39.840 But, you know, watching TV, as we know, is so immersive. 179 00:08:39.899 --> 00:08:43.860 You know, here we are talking about a TV show that we experienced 180 00:08:43.860 --> 00:08:47.879 we used to watching Doctor Who to be scared and to laugh and to 181 00:08:47.879 --> 00:08:48.720 feel things. 182 00:08:48.779 --> 00:08:51.360 And so the screen is always porous. 183 00:08:51.419 --> 00:08:54.299 And so this is not a new idea by any stretch. 184 00:08:54.360 --> 00:09:01.019 And what we get to is that all 3 of those gods, not including 185 00:09:01.019 --> 00:09:06.480 puppy Soo Tech, but the other 3 gods, all have some control over 186 00:09:06.480 --> 00:09:11.039 Doctor Who the TV show, as does Mrs. Flant. 187 00:09:11.100 --> 00:09:14.519 And so, you know, in the Devil's Court, we had that moment where 188 00:09:14.519 --> 00:09:19.440 Maestro strikes the set so that they can do a musical number. 189 00:09:19.500 --> 00:09:24.120 Here, we have that absolutely much more explicit because this is 190 00:09:24.120 --> 00:09:28.440 about a god who is in charge of the visual medium. 191 00:09:28.500 --> 00:09:31.980 And so like, I just think all of that stuff worked incredibly 192 00:09:31.980 --> 00:09:32.399 well. 193 00:09:32.460 --> 00:09:37.259 Just having shooty tap on the inside of my TV screen was like so 194 00:09:37.259 --> 00:09:37.980 incredible. 195 00:09:38.220 --> 00:09:40.679 I did think that it worked well. 196 00:09:40.740 --> 00:09:42.960 But by the same token. 197 00:09:43.019 --> 00:09:44.940 I do think the conceits were all that well developed. 198 00:09:45.000 --> 00:09:48.899 Being turned into cartoon form, you know, escaping by breaking the 199 00:09:48.899 --> 00:09:52.620 frames, entering a reality where, you know, you're the fiction and 200 00:09:52.620 --> 00:09:53.340 being observed. 201 00:09:53.399 --> 00:09:56.759 That's all being done before, and in some respects, it's sort of 202 00:09:56.759 --> 00:09:57.899 the low hanging fruit. 203 00:09:57.960 --> 00:10:00.480 So yeah, I really did enjoy this episode. 204 00:10:00.539 --> 00:10:03.360 I thought it was very good on its own terms, but I did also think 205 00:10:03.360 --> 00:10:07.740 that in the hands of a more imaginatively thorough writer like 206 00:10:07.740 --> 00:10:10.139 Stephen Motha, it might have been developed a little bit more 207 00:10:10.139 --> 00:10:12.000 beyond quite obvious trips. 208 00:10:12.059 --> 00:10:15.480 But what I liked was the fact that the animation didn't outstay 209 00:10:15.480 --> 00:10:16.139 its welcome. 210 00:10:16.200 --> 00:10:20.279 We had the 2D and then they got depth and then it began to pop and 211 00:10:20.279 --> 00:10:22.559 then they went back into reality. 212 00:10:22.620 --> 00:10:25.559 And I think if we just had the 2D for too long, it would have not 213 00:10:25.559 --> 00:10:26.159 worked. 214 00:10:26.220 --> 00:10:28.919 I'm thinking back to one of the Chibnell episodes where I sort of 215 00:10:28.919 --> 00:10:32.519 just tuned out, whereas I think here it was just long enough and 216 00:10:32.519 --> 00:10:35.639 it kept on moving and kept on moving and that was really good. 217 00:10:35.700 --> 00:10:38.940 Many episodes of chip or 0 work cartoonish, I would agree. 218 00:10:42.419 --> 00:10:45.000 On that notion, Peter. 219 00:10:45.059 --> 00:10:46.679 I partially agree with you in that. 220 00:10:46.740 --> 00:10:49.320 I think another writer would have fleshed more of those out, but I 221 00:10:49.320 --> 00:10:53.399 think possibly we would have had fewer of them in order to give it 222 00:10:53.399 --> 00:10:56.700 time to breathe or that the story may have needed to be longer. 223 00:10:56.759 --> 00:11:00.000 For me, I really enjoyed what we got. 224 00:11:00.059 --> 00:11:01.379 I love animation. 225 00:11:01.440 --> 00:11:05.100 So I was kind of like, I'd love to see more of animated Dr. and 226 00:11:05.100 --> 00:11:05.940 Belinda running about. 227 00:11:06.000 --> 00:11:08.580 But at the same time, instead, what we get is we get this 228 00:11:08.580 --> 00:11:12.059 beautiful, self-contained, animated bit that is about them opening 229 00:11:12.059 --> 00:11:14.940 up to each other, and it's doing the whole, under last of the time 230 00:11:14.940 --> 00:11:18.960 lords thing in a new and interesting way, which is something that 231 00:11:18.960 --> 00:11:20.639 continues to astound me about this era. 232 00:11:20.639 --> 00:11:23.820 Like Russell is having to do all the things he's done 5 or 6 times 233 00:11:23.820 --> 00:11:27.120 before, and do them in new ways, and for the most part, he 234 00:11:27.120 --> 00:11:27.779 succeeds. 235 00:11:27.840 --> 00:11:29.879 The the 4th war break. 236 00:11:29.940 --> 00:11:33.360 I got a shiver when they came right up to the screen and there was 237 00:11:33.360 --> 00:11:36.539 a little like 10 year old part of my brain that's going, no. 238 00:11:36.600 --> 00:11:39.840 I'm not going to come through my television. 239 00:11:41.220 --> 00:11:44.220 I think that that was incredibly well done. 240 00:11:44.279 --> 00:11:47.940 Just, you know, having them tap, having the screen fall down and 241 00:11:47.940 --> 00:11:51.539 smash, so the glass falls out of the tally, and then having them 242 00:11:51.539 --> 00:11:54.960 walk out and the, just the way that that's erected works really 243 00:11:54.960 --> 00:11:56.100 quite well, I think. 244 00:11:56.159 --> 00:12:01.019 And so I think that we'll talk about those 3 fans a little bit 245 00:12:01.019 --> 00:12:01.980 later. 246 00:12:02.039 --> 00:12:06.179 But what I would like to talk about now is our villain. 247 00:12:06.240 --> 00:12:08.279 So we've had Neil Patrick Harris. 248 00:12:08.340 --> 00:12:12.960 We've had Jinx Monsoon, and now we have Alan coming back in Doctor 249 00:12:12.960 --> 00:12:15.659 Who, playing Mr. Ringa-Ding, ding. 250 00:12:15.720 --> 00:12:17.580 Don't make me laugh. 251 00:12:17.700 --> 00:12:19.139 It's very good. 252 00:12:20.039 --> 00:12:21.720 Really very good. 253 00:12:21.779 --> 00:12:24.000 What did you think of that, Richard? 254 00:12:24.059 --> 00:12:25.559 It's period, isn't it? 255 00:12:25.620 --> 00:12:26.639 I think it works. 256 00:12:26.879 --> 00:12:29.399 You know, I love animation so much. 257 00:12:29.460 --> 00:12:33.539 I actually spent 25 grand learning it 20 years ago. and then 258 00:12:33.539 --> 00:12:36.600 realised it isn't actually a career you can make a living out of 259 00:12:36.659 --> 00:12:36.899 anyway. 260 00:12:36.960 --> 00:12:38.100 Well, I couldn't. 261 00:12:38.159 --> 00:12:40.080 Um, I adore it. 262 00:12:40.139 --> 00:12:43.679 The animation's flawless, but really, as in with all of these 263 00:12:43.679 --> 00:12:47.399 things, the voice artist is 1st and then the character is animated 264 00:12:47.399 --> 00:12:51.000 around him in 3D because that's how we do it now. 265 00:12:51.059 --> 00:12:54.960 So when you see the rendered ant creature with the pig nose, I'm 266 00:12:54.960 --> 00:12:56.639 trying to work out what those references are about. 267 00:12:56.700 --> 00:12:58.679 I don't think it's very kind to Mr. Cummings. 268 00:12:58.740 --> 00:13:03.059 But, um, you know, he would have, he would have done some of the 269 00:13:03.059 --> 00:13:03.720 movement as well. 270 00:13:03.840 --> 00:13:06.120 And it's flawless animation. 271 00:13:06.179 --> 00:13:09.659 Do we know Disney, did the Disney crew work on that or is it all 272 00:13:09.659 --> 00:13:10.139 Cardiff? 273 00:13:10.200 --> 00:13:13.860 I don't know, but I mean, the interesting thing is, you know 274 00:13:13.860 --> 00:13:16.919 there's those things in Mickey Mouse and all of those characters 275 00:13:16.919 --> 00:13:19.620 that have those dog noses and you kind of be going, are they 276 00:13:19.620 --> 00:13:19.980 dogs? 277 00:13:20.039 --> 00:13:21.659 Like, what the hell even? 278 00:13:22.139 --> 00:13:25.440 And so it was very definitely that, I think. 279 00:13:26.159 --> 00:13:30.120 They even make reference to it, and that is blue. 280 00:13:30.120 --> 00:13:34.440 Um, there's a... because of moonlight. 281 00:13:34.500 --> 00:13:38.220 There's lots and lots of film references here and the ant feelers 282 00:13:38.220 --> 00:13:42.899 that it has are also nods to just anthropomorphism in animation 283 00:13:42.899 --> 00:13:47.940 but it goes much dark. the max Fleischer cartoons of that are the 284 00:13:47.940 --> 00:13:52.980 earlier ones that were really dark, as in, like, you know, as dark 285 00:13:52.980 --> 00:13:57.480 as this, um, had more of a, of a look of this character. 286 00:13:57.539 --> 00:13:59.220 This isn't really a Disney looking character. 287 00:13:59.279 --> 00:14:02.519 So whoever's worked on this really knows their stuff. 288 00:14:02.580 --> 00:14:06.059 But if you're talking about the character itself, it is my 289 00:14:06.059 --> 00:14:10.080 favourite villain so far of the new era, as in its realisation. 290 00:14:10.139 --> 00:14:14.340 I watched like Peter, I went back and watched the Jinx Monsoon 291 00:14:14.340 --> 00:14:17.519 episode and it actually landed a lot better for me today after 292 00:14:17.519 --> 00:14:23.399 watching Lux, but it is flawed and I think it's about timing in 293 00:14:23.399 --> 00:14:26.399 just the way it got itself over onto the screen, which this does 294 00:14:26.399 --> 00:14:27.179 not suffer at all. 295 00:14:27.240 --> 00:14:28.139 It's a lot tighter. 296 00:14:28.200 --> 00:14:33.240 It's a lot more closely realised, and it's a lot closer to, it's 297 00:14:33.240 --> 00:14:34.019 antecedency. 298 00:14:34.139 --> 00:14:37.740 I think it understands what it's trying to do by aping what has 299 00:14:37.740 --> 00:14:39.899 gone before it in a very visceral way. 300 00:14:39.960 --> 00:14:44.940 The character is unsettling and there are animation tricks for a 301 00:14:44.940 --> 00:14:48.179 character design in what you do to make a character warm and 302 00:14:48.179 --> 00:14:50.940 friendly and accessible. 303 00:14:51.000 --> 00:14:53.879 Bugs life and ants both did that very well. 304 00:14:53.940 --> 00:14:58.440 And then you look at this one and there are deliberately drawn 305 00:14:58.440 --> 00:15:00.779 things to make you mistrust the character. 306 00:15:00.840 --> 00:15:02.039 And the pig's nose is one of them. 307 00:15:02.100 --> 00:15:03.179 It's mixing up. 308 00:15:03.240 --> 00:15:06.480 It's mixing up types Have we said tropes yet in this episode? 309 00:15:06.539 --> 00:15:07.440 I don't think we have. 310 00:15:07.500 --> 00:15:09.120 We need to in that case. 311 00:15:09.179 --> 00:15:13.080 Yeah, so it is deliberately designed to be just slightly off. 312 00:15:13.139 --> 00:15:14.700 I think it does it very well. 313 00:15:14.759 --> 00:15:18.000 I thought he looked a little bit like Jiminy cricket. 314 00:15:18.059 --> 00:15:22.500 Um, and it also put me in mind of um, do you know Steamboat 315 00:15:22.500 --> 00:15:24.779 Scratchy from um, The Simpsons? 316 00:15:25.740 --> 00:15:30.179 I don't have that kind of thing when he started malevolently 317 00:15:30.179 --> 00:15:31.320 looking out of the screen. 318 00:15:31.379 --> 00:15:34.379 It sort of had that dark turn to it, which I really liked. 319 00:15:34.500 --> 00:15:38.519 The whole thing put me in mind of the idiot's lantern. 320 00:15:38.580 --> 00:15:41.100 And I think if the idiot's lantern had been an episode now, you 321 00:15:41.100 --> 00:15:44.039 could very well transplant that to the wire, being one of the 322 00:15:44.039 --> 00:15:45.120 pantheon. 323 00:15:45.120 --> 00:15:48.779 Um, and even some of the story bits were the same because you had 324 00:15:48.779 --> 00:15:52.500 if you'd replaced Mr. Magpie, Reginald Pie, and you replaced the 325 00:15:52.500 --> 00:15:56.399 wire with Lux Imperata, and you replaced people having their faces 326 00:15:56.399 --> 00:15:59.639 drawn out of them by the TV screen with people getting trapped in 327 00:15:59.639 --> 00:16:00.480 the film cells. 328 00:16:00.539 --> 00:16:04.200 Then you start to see, you know, the plots moving gear by gear. 329 00:16:04.259 --> 00:16:07.440 But, you know, like I say, I think that's a pretty good basis to 330 00:16:07.440 --> 00:16:07.860 work from. 331 00:16:07.919 --> 00:16:09.600 I think Idiot Lantern's a pretty good episode. 332 00:16:10.080 --> 00:16:13.679 I think the thing that it does differently, though, is that 333 00:16:13.679 --> 00:16:18.539 porosity between the real world and the world of fiction, I think 334 00:16:18.539 --> 00:16:23.100 and that is a feature of this pantheon, really, with the exception 335 00:16:23.100 --> 00:16:25.620 of Zoo Tech, and I really like it. 336 00:16:25.679 --> 00:16:28.019 Maybe a big hint of where we're heading. 337 00:16:28.080 --> 00:16:28.620 Yeah. 338 00:16:28.679 --> 00:16:32.039 Well, I mean, there's that great thing in in the Devil's Cord 339 00:16:32.039 --> 00:16:35.279 where the doctor and Jinx Monsoon are kind of trying to rest 340 00:16:35.279 --> 00:16:38.279 control over who gets to look at the camera. 341 00:16:38.460 --> 00:16:41.159 You know, when the doctor's winning, he gets to regard the camera 342 00:16:41.159 --> 00:16:44.039 for a 2nd and all of that sort of thing and he gets to take 343 00:16:44.039 --> 00:16:46.740 control of the TV show at the end. 344 00:16:46.799 --> 00:16:49.740 All of that sort of stuff is something that we couldn't have done 345 00:16:49.740 --> 00:16:51.779 earlier, and I'm glad that Russell brought it in. 346 00:16:51.840 --> 00:16:52.799 What do you think, Brendan? 347 00:16:52.860 --> 00:16:57.659 Um, yes, yeah, I thought it was incredibly effectively realised. 348 00:16:57.720 --> 00:17:00.539 In answer to Richard's question earlier, the animation was done by 349 00:17:00.539 --> 00:17:01.559 Frame Store. 350 00:17:01.559 --> 00:17:02.879 Oh, they're great. 351 00:17:02.940 --> 00:17:07.380 Yeah, a long history, including most of the Daniel Craig bonds and 352 00:17:07.380 --> 00:17:10.619 a lot of the more recent, well, I spent more recent, a lot of the 353 00:17:10.619 --> 00:17:12.839 Marvel films over the past 10 years, although they are not a 354 00:17:12.839 --> 00:17:15.420 Disney subsidiary, I should point out, but it wouldn't surprise me 355 00:17:15.420 --> 00:17:18.059 if Disney put them put them onto it. 356 00:17:18.119 --> 00:17:21.960 But I'd like to point out something from friend of the podcast and 357 00:17:21.960 --> 00:17:27.119 also former podcast guest Maxwell, which is all 3 members of the 358 00:17:27.119 --> 00:17:29.880 pantheon we've seen so far have been played by gay or otherwise 359 00:17:29.880 --> 00:17:30.660 queer actors. 360 00:17:31.019 --> 00:17:32.759 And I... 361 00:17:32.759 --> 00:17:33.420 Always the villain. 362 00:17:33.480 --> 00:17:37.980 Yep, And I said to him, and the original Harbinger of Soutech 363 00:17:37.980 --> 00:17:41.460 Bernard Archard, was, of course, in a relationship with his 364 00:17:41.460 --> 00:17:42.779 partner for 60 years. 365 00:17:42.839 --> 00:17:47.160 So I don't, I don't know, I'm not, I'm not saying anything about 366 00:17:47.160 --> 00:17:47.579 that. 367 00:17:47.640 --> 00:17:49.680 I'm just pointing it out as Max pointed it out to me. 368 00:17:49.740 --> 00:17:51.240 We're divine. 369 00:17:51.299 --> 00:17:52.859 He's essentially the take away. 370 00:17:54.240 --> 00:17:55.859 And watch it. 371 00:17:57.960 --> 00:18:00.000 Alan was fantastic. 372 00:18:00.059 --> 00:18:04.619 He really, he just made that role his own. 373 00:18:04.680 --> 00:18:07.079 It was just mesmerising to watch. 374 00:18:07.200 --> 00:18:10.740 And I think that's one of the things about this story is that they 375 00:18:10.740 --> 00:18:11.759 were all so good. 376 00:18:11.819 --> 00:18:15.059 I thought Belinda was was fabulous. 377 00:18:15.119 --> 00:18:19.740 All the lines about Brock Hudson and HIV and were just handled so 378 00:18:19.740 --> 00:18:22.740 well and then all the talk about segregation, how all that was 379 00:18:22.740 --> 00:18:23.039 done. 380 00:18:23.099 --> 00:18:24.839 And the mother of the boy. 381 00:18:24.900 --> 00:18:27.480 My God, she just sold the whole thing. 382 00:18:27.539 --> 00:18:30.900 Like if, if that, if she had been a bad actress or even half 383 00:18:30.900 --> 00:18:33.960 standard, it would have fallen down a bit, but she was so good. 384 00:18:34.019 --> 00:18:38.640 I just was thoroughly engrossed in her performance, that when they 385 00:18:38.640 --> 00:18:41.160 did the fake out with the policeman, I actually thought that she 386 00:18:41.160 --> 00:18:44.400 had turned because it was so easy to blame black people for what's 387 00:18:44.400 --> 00:18:47.460 happened to her boy, like, and I was so convinced that that had 388 00:18:47.460 --> 00:18:47.880 happened. 389 00:18:47.940 --> 00:18:49.259 I thought she was tremendous. 390 00:18:49.319 --> 00:18:53.759 There's that scene in the diner and you've got a little gay boy 391 00:18:53.759 --> 00:18:55.140 behind the counter. 392 00:18:55.200 --> 00:18:58.500 You've got this Jewish woman and you've got these 2 people of 393 00:18:58.500 --> 00:19:02.279 colour and it's 4 o'clock in the morning and the normal rules are 394 00:19:02.279 --> 00:19:02.940 suspended. 395 00:19:03.000 --> 00:19:05.160 You know, they suspend the rules. 396 00:19:05.160 --> 00:19:10.079 And I just think that that's just that little kind of, you know 397 00:19:10.079 --> 00:19:13.500 all of these people on the edges that are meeting together in 398 00:19:13.500 --> 00:19:15.660 silence and in darkness. 399 00:19:15.720 --> 00:19:16.619 I thought was terrific. 400 00:19:16.680 --> 00:19:19.500 That stuff about segregation, I think, was just, you know, like 401 00:19:19.500 --> 00:19:20.579 quite extraordinary. 402 00:19:20.640 --> 00:19:23.220 And it has to address the problem. 403 00:19:23.579 --> 00:19:25.799 Why doesn't the doctor overthrow it? 404 00:19:25.859 --> 00:19:31.500 That's one of my major problems with Rosa, is that the doctor 405 00:19:31.500 --> 00:19:34.500 should trick the governor of Alabama into blowing up the state 406 00:19:34.500 --> 00:19:37.920 house with him and his family in it because that's what the doctor 407 00:19:37.920 --> 00:19:39.240 would do in that situation. 408 00:19:39.299 --> 00:19:42.180 But because the doctor's fictional, he can only deal with 409 00:19:42.180 --> 00:19:43.259 fictional problems. 410 00:19:43.319 --> 00:19:47.220 So here he just says, I'm waiting for other people to topple this 411 00:19:47.220 --> 00:19:47.519 world. 412 00:19:47.519 --> 00:19:50.220 And in the meantime, I'm just going to shine. 413 00:19:50.519 --> 00:19:54.420 I thought that was terrific, a very good way of dealing with that 414 00:19:54.420 --> 00:19:55.380 problem, I think. 415 00:19:56.220 --> 00:20:00.900 I also thought that scene in the diner was the best scene in the 416 00:20:00.900 --> 00:20:04.920 episode, even with the more attention grabbing things going on, it 417 00:20:04.920 --> 00:20:07.619 played to the better aspects of Stuti's performance, I think. 418 00:20:07.680 --> 00:20:11.519 And it really shows, I think, like, as the whole episode did, what 419 00:20:11.519 --> 00:20:15.359 a breath of fresh air, um, for Rada, C2 has been. 420 00:20:15.420 --> 00:20:20.099 She's an adult companion, following the fairly irritatingly 421 00:20:20.099 --> 00:20:23.640 juvenile ruby, and it really ups the program, I think. 422 00:20:23.700 --> 00:20:27.539 That bit where she asks the doctor whether he should be just 423 00:20:27.539 --> 00:20:30.059 introduced as just doctor and he says yes. 424 00:20:30.119 --> 00:20:32.700 And she just says ridiculously. 425 00:20:33.420 --> 00:20:34.980 So good. 426 00:20:35.039 --> 00:20:37.200 That's Barbara. 427 00:20:37.259 --> 00:20:40.500 Yeah, Barbara Verney, I thought... 428 00:20:40.559 --> 00:20:45.180 Like it's just so natural and she is in that category for me 429 00:20:45.180 --> 00:20:45.779 Barbara. 430 00:20:45.779 --> 00:20:47.519 Sarah, Liz. 431 00:20:47.579 --> 00:20:49.200 It's got to go nuts yet. 432 00:20:51.359 --> 00:20:54.359 Richard, did you want to talk about the segregation thing or 433 00:20:54.359 --> 00:20:54.599 anything? 434 00:20:54.660 --> 00:20:56.279 That would be interesting. 435 00:20:56.339 --> 00:20:59.160 I mean, none of us are really qualified, but we have a new friend 436 00:20:59.160 --> 00:21:02.640 of the podcast, Alan, who's in the States, and he's been following 437 00:21:02.640 --> 00:21:07.200 everything we're doing, which is so sweet, and thank you. 438 00:21:07.319 --> 00:21:10.920 And he's a black man in his 60s who does a lot of podcasting 439 00:21:10.920 --> 00:21:15.240 himself and he said, oh, guys, if you're going to talk about this 440 00:21:15.240 --> 00:21:19.980 please mention for us just how fantastic this episode is. 441 00:21:20.039 --> 00:21:22.680 And I went, you're talking about the sun down a thing. 442 00:21:22.680 --> 00:21:25.140 And he went, yeah, yeah, but it's, he said, it's just the way that 443 00:21:25.140 --> 00:21:29.039 and I'll quote him, that Russell pays attention to the race issue 444 00:21:29.039 --> 00:21:33.720 in such a simple and direct and conversational manner, and then 445 00:21:33.720 --> 00:21:38.460 absolutely turns on its head and uses it as a taunt from Lux. 446 00:21:38.519 --> 00:21:43.440 Because of course, it's always the villains who misinterpret 447 00:21:43.440 --> 00:21:46.440 what's going on because they can only see things from their own 448 00:21:46.440 --> 00:21:47.160 viewpoint. 449 00:21:47.220 --> 00:21:48.660 And I think that's fabulous. 450 00:21:48.720 --> 00:21:49.559 I really do. 451 00:21:49.740 --> 00:21:51.359 All right. 452 00:21:51.420 --> 00:21:55.559 So we want to talk about the fan reaction, obviously, and it's our 453 00:21:55.559 --> 00:22:00.180 3 fans, Lizzy, Hassan, and Robin, who get a visit from the 454 00:22:00.180 --> 00:22:00.720 doctor. 455 00:22:00.720 --> 00:22:05.099 I spent a fair bit of time this afternoon just checking out their 456 00:22:05.099 --> 00:22:11.940 shelves, and seeing how many Doctor Who the collection things they 457 00:22:11.940 --> 00:22:12.359 have. 458 00:22:12.359 --> 00:22:16.440 They definitely have the key to time DVD release, that big box 459 00:22:16.440 --> 00:22:20.460 release, and they have the little Slaveen figurine, which you gave 460 00:22:20.460 --> 00:22:24.779 me, Brandon, which is on my Doctor Who DVD shelf. 461 00:22:24.839 --> 00:22:28.559 They have that just sort of sat in front of the thing. 462 00:22:28.619 --> 00:22:30.359 And like Tellos. 463 00:22:30.420 --> 00:22:31.079 For God's sake. 464 00:22:31.140 --> 00:22:36.779 This is the 1st mention of Telos in the new series. 30s. 465 00:22:37.259 --> 00:22:39.240 What did you think? 466 00:22:39.299 --> 00:22:39.720 Todd? 467 00:22:39.779 --> 00:22:42.660 Oh, I think some people are going to be outraged because they 468 00:22:42.660 --> 00:22:43.440 can't take a joke. 469 00:22:43.500 --> 00:22:46.319 I actually thought they were, they were really great. 470 00:22:46.380 --> 00:22:49.680 And, um, you know, he pushed the boundaries with it and then 471 00:22:49.680 --> 00:22:52.500 pulled back on it and I was, it was quite delicious. 472 00:22:52.619 --> 00:22:56.819 You know, he can take a joke by going with the blink thing, even 473 00:22:56.819 --> 00:22:59.160 though we all know that if you're a classic series fan, you're 474 00:22:59.160 --> 00:23:01.440 never going to vote blinkers number one, but, you know, that's 475 00:23:01.440 --> 00:23:02.880 part of the joke, really, isn't it? 476 00:23:02.940 --> 00:23:05.400 And so I just, I just love that. 477 00:23:05.400 --> 00:23:07.980 And I love the fact that at the end they actually had, had a 1st 478 00:23:07.980 --> 00:23:09.359 name and a 2nd name in the credits. 479 00:23:09.420 --> 00:23:13.680 They just weren't, you know, just one name and then I kept 480 00:23:13.680 --> 00:23:17.819 thinking, well, are they something more? 481 00:23:17.880 --> 00:23:20.519 Are they the gods of Ragnarok was all I could think of? 482 00:23:20.579 --> 00:23:23.160 So, you know, because they've been mentioned and I thought maybe 483 00:23:23.160 --> 00:23:23.519 they are. 484 00:23:23.579 --> 00:23:25.859 Oh my god, entertain us. 485 00:23:25.920 --> 00:23:27.960 That's what Alan said, actually. 486 00:23:28.019 --> 00:23:28.859 You mentioned it. 487 00:23:28.920 --> 00:23:29.339 Yeah. 488 00:23:29.400 --> 00:23:30.960 Oh, I hadn't thought of that. 489 00:23:31.079 --> 00:23:34.079 I mean, obviously they're real and the doctor's fictional, right? 490 00:23:36.599 --> 00:23:40.619 But there is enough plausible deniability so that you can have it 491 00:23:40.619 --> 00:23:41.279 how you want. 492 00:23:41.339 --> 00:23:45.660 I mean, it is that what really breaks it is their appearance at 493 00:23:45.660 --> 00:23:46.019 the end. 494 00:23:46.079 --> 00:23:49.440 And the moment, I think that Lizzie gave it 7 out of 10. 495 00:23:49.799 --> 00:23:53.160 I was convinced that Todd was saying the same thing at the same 496 00:23:53.160 --> 00:23:57.420 time, but it's a solid 9 point something, isn't it, I think? 497 00:23:57.539 --> 00:23:59.339 It's a nine. 498 00:23:59.400 --> 00:24:02.460 It could go either way, depending on how the arc was sold, but 499 00:24:02.460 --> 00:24:04.140 it's definitely a 9, Nathan. 500 00:24:04.200 --> 00:24:04.559 There you go. 501 00:24:04.619 --> 00:24:07.799 If it's a 7 now, let's wait a couple of years and it'll be a 9 502 00:24:07.799 --> 00:24:08.099 then. 503 00:24:08.160 --> 00:24:09.240 Yeah, yeah, yeah, exactly. 504 00:24:10.740 --> 00:24:13.559 I didn't care much for that scene, honestly. 505 00:24:13.619 --> 00:24:15.539 I love the idea of it. 506 00:24:15.599 --> 00:24:20.759 Um, and I really liked the ultimate breaking of the 4th wall, but 507 00:24:20.759 --> 00:24:23.519 I think there was a better and harking back till I was saying 508 00:24:23.519 --> 00:24:26.819 earlier, less obvious take on it that would have worked a little 509 00:24:26.819 --> 00:24:27.240 bit better. 510 00:24:27.299 --> 00:24:31.859 The door 2 fans were very broad strokes, jewellers decked out in 511 00:24:31.859 --> 00:24:34.980 their kind of scarves and fezes to sit down together and watch a 512 00:24:34.980 --> 00:24:35.519 TV show. 513 00:24:35.579 --> 00:24:37.500 I know they're not meant to be real. 514 00:24:37.559 --> 00:24:39.660 I know that they're just meant to be sort of cyphers in the 515 00:24:39.660 --> 00:24:40.079 fiction. 516 00:24:40.140 --> 00:24:43.500 That's absolutely fine, but we have to, we have to look at what 517 00:24:43.500 --> 00:24:45.480 we're actually watching and what's being fed to us. 518 00:24:45.539 --> 00:24:49.980 And regardless of that, I just think they came across as somehow, a 519 00:24:49.980 --> 00:24:53.220 less nuanced and maybe less sympathetic take on fans than the 520 00:24:53.220 --> 00:24:53.819 Wizkid. 521 00:24:53.880 --> 00:24:58.079 And so while I loved the idea of that scene, and I really did like 522 00:24:58.079 --> 00:25:01.079 it on some respects, I think it could have been actually a lot 523 00:25:01.079 --> 00:25:01.500 better. 524 00:25:01.559 --> 00:25:06.539 Oh, I just thought that, yeah, they're meant to be tunish, and I 525 00:25:06.539 --> 00:25:09.240 pertrified and all the other things because everything else in 526 00:25:09.240 --> 00:25:13.079 this story is, and the truth is the little subtle exchanges 527 00:25:13.079 --> 00:25:18.720 between them all, when the script drops or the little asides, or 528 00:25:18.720 --> 00:25:20.880 the little moments at the end, when they say, oh, we're actually 529 00:25:20.880 --> 00:25:21.299 still real. 530 00:25:21.359 --> 00:25:25.259 Um, for better or for worse, I have lots of friends exactly like 531 00:25:25.259 --> 00:25:26.640 those people. 532 00:25:26.640 --> 00:25:32.279 And I, when I was 15, I made that scarf and I had those toys, so 533 00:25:32.279 --> 00:25:33.599 I'm feeling seen. 534 00:25:33.660 --> 00:25:34.680 Yeah, yeah. 535 00:25:34.680 --> 00:25:37.079 We're here doing a podcast about it 2 days later. 536 00:25:37.140 --> 00:25:44.039 I think, you know, I also really not love the nod to the to the 537 00:25:44.039 --> 00:25:48.299 spectrum quality of them when when one of the the girl says, oh, a 538 00:25:48.299 --> 00:25:50.819 lot of people find us annoying. and I thought, well, anyone with 539 00:25:50.819 --> 00:25:55.259 ADHD or spectrum has said that at some point in their lives and a 540 00:25:55.259 --> 00:25:59.160 lot of fandom crossovers with spectrum. and I found that just so 541 00:25:59.160 --> 00:26:03.420 sweet and poignant and I really think that would have reached 542 00:26:03.420 --> 00:26:03.599 out. 543 00:26:03.660 --> 00:26:08.579 You think about a young person watching this, who will identify 544 00:26:08.579 --> 00:26:09.119 with that. 545 00:26:09.180 --> 00:26:11.579 And it's just recognition in a really sweet way. 546 00:26:11.700 --> 00:26:15.779 I thought there was something really warm too about giving them 547 00:26:15.779 --> 00:26:18.599 the role of saving the day. 548 00:26:18.660 --> 00:26:22.559 So they tell the doctor how the day is to be saved because they 549 00:26:22.559 --> 00:26:25.200 noticed the thing about flammable film stock. 550 00:26:25.259 --> 00:26:30.539 Also, Russell, you're a bastard because we got to watch all of 551 00:26:30.539 --> 00:26:33.960 those canisters of film go up in flames at the end of the 552 00:26:33.960 --> 00:26:34.140 episode. 553 00:26:34.200 --> 00:26:36.240 I thought there might have been the myth maybe. 554 00:26:36.960 --> 00:26:39.720 God, it was very Pamela, wasn't it? 555 00:26:39.779 --> 00:26:40.920 Yes. 556 00:26:40.920 --> 00:26:43.380 Great Pamela Mash, yeah. 557 00:26:43.440 --> 00:26:47.940 But also, because this is the episode, it's like Gridlock, the 558 00:26:47.940 --> 00:26:51.420 episode where the companion properly gets to know the doctor, one 559 00:26:51.420 --> 00:26:55.740 of the ways that she gets to know him is by seeing the reaction 560 00:26:55.740 --> 00:27:00.359 that his fans have towards him and how they feel about him and how 561 00:27:00.359 --> 00:27:02.339 included she is in that immediately. 562 00:27:02.400 --> 00:27:06.420 And I think that that's, you know, like it's not just a sketch in 563 00:27:06.420 --> 00:27:10.680 the middle of the episode. crucial to how the episode plays out 564 00:27:10.680 --> 00:27:16.019 both in the science fiction thing and in the character arc, and 565 00:27:16.019 --> 00:27:17.400 that it's not as good as blink. 566 00:27:17.460 --> 00:27:19.140 Yeah, well, yes. 567 00:27:19.200 --> 00:27:21.059 I do agree with that. 568 00:27:21.119 --> 00:27:23.759 I think it's a very important scene and I think it's a good scene 569 00:27:23.759 --> 00:27:24.779 on a lot of levels. 570 00:27:24.839 --> 00:27:27.599 I just think it could have been a much better scene. 571 00:27:27.660 --> 00:27:32.700 It played into that stereotype of Doctor Who fans where they're 572 00:27:32.700 --> 00:27:35.880 sitting intently watching the screen, like not moving. 573 00:27:35.940 --> 00:27:39.660 And those comments about, oh, you know, I always knew it was real 574 00:27:39.660 --> 00:27:43.200 just plays into, I think, a weird stereotype that doesn't really 575 00:27:43.200 --> 00:27:43.559 exist. 576 00:27:43.619 --> 00:27:45.240 I just thought it could have been clever. 577 00:27:45.539 --> 00:27:48.960 Yeah, maybe it could have been clever, but I also think on the 578 00:27:48.960 --> 00:27:52.440 other hand, it could have been far worse, and I know in other 579 00:27:52.440 --> 00:27:56.819 things, Russell has been quite pointed and and sometimes is just 580 00:27:56.819 --> 00:28:01.440 too on the nose, and this time, for me, it was just like the rest 581 00:28:01.440 --> 00:28:05.940 of the episode, he was just on and it did enough without doing too 582 00:28:05.940 --> 00:28:06.180 much. 583 00:28:06.240 --> 00:28:09.059 You're only saying that because you don't have a last name. 584 00:28:10.799 --> 00:28:15.839 Look, I think, however we feel about this scene, it's Russell's 585 00:28:15.839 --> 00:28:19.019 attempt to make up for killing a bunch of Doctor Who fans the last 586 00:28:19.019 --> 00:28:21.240 time he shot a doctor. 587 00:28:21.359 --> 00:28:22.380 Exactly. 588 00:28:23.220 --> 00:28:24.779 All right. 589 00:28:24.839 --> 00:28:28.680 So, um, we should wind up, but before we do that, let's just sort 590 00:28:28.680 --> 00:28:31.380 of go around the table and talk about how we feel about the end of 591 00:28:31.380 --> 00:28:35.819 it and how we feel about the show at the moment, Todd. 592 00:28:35.880 --> 00:28:40.740 I love the way in which luck's sort of just became the light. 593 00:28:40.799 --> 00:28:43.140 Like, I thought that was actually really quite clever. 594 00:28:43.259 --> 00:28:47.279 The get out of jail free card for 15 people, I would have liked to 595 00:28:47.279 --> 00:28:50.700 have seen perhaps Belinda grab the film and then something 596 00:28:50.700 --> 00:28:54.779 happening to it rather than just like, you know, but it was there 597 00:28:54.779 --> 00:28:56.279 but you know, you know what I'm like. 598 00:28:56.339 --> 00:28:57.359 Yeah. 599 00:28:57.420 --> 00:29:00.839 And, uh, no, so I was really happy with that. 600 00:29:00.839 --> 00:29:04.140 And, and then having Mrs. Flood turn up, the 1st time she's been 601 00:29:04.140 --> 00:29:08.160 out of a present day as an next door neighbour is interesting to 602 00:29:08.160 --> 00:29:09.180 me, right? 603 00:29:09.240 --> 00:29:11.579 How would she now been able to do that? 604 00:29:11.640 --> 00:29:16.319 And I think her knowing how the TV show works and, you know, even 605 00:29:16.319 --> 00:29:21.960 nominating the date of episode seven, which obviously came up last 606 00:29:21.960 --> 00:29:27.180 week, you know, she has to be in some way involved with a pantheon 607 00:29:27.180 --> 00:29:31.680 because she has the same power over the TV show that that is 608 00:29:31.680 --> 00:29:32.819 characteristic of them. 609 00:29:32.880 --> 00:29:34.920 What do you think, Brendan? 610 00:29:35.339 --> 00:29:41.400 I really loved the ending and I think, um, going right back to 611 00:29:41.400 --> 00:29:43.079 what Richard was saying about antecedents. 612 00:29:43.140 --> 00:29:46.319 I think it deliberately pays homage to 1957, the Incredible 613 00:29:46.319 --> 00:29:49.559 Shrinking Man, in which a man is incredible and shrinks. 614 00:29:49.619 --> 00:29:55.079 And eventually, eventually he shrinks past the subatomic level, and 615 00:29:55.079 --> 00:29:57.960 that's where the film ends, and it ends with him giving a long 616 00:29:57.960 --> 00:29:59.880 monologue, which will just read a part of it out. 617 00:29:59.940 --> 00:30:05.220 So, Mr. Ringading ends by saying, I am everything and I am nothing 618 00:30:05.220 --> 00:30:05.759 goodbye. 619 00:30:06.000 --> 00:30:11.579 Um, what uh, Scott Carey says in the incredible shrinking man is 620 00:30:11.579 --> 00:30:15.660 so close, the infinitesimal and the infinite, but suddenly I knew 621 00:30:15.660 --> 00:30:18.839 that they were really the 2 ends of the same concept, the 622 00:30:18.839 --> 00:30:22.680 unbelievably small and the unbelievably vast, eventually meat, like 623 00:30:22.680 --> 00:30:24.660 the closing of a gigantic circle. 624 00:30:24.720 --> 00:30:30.480 And it has very similar visuals of him falling into a cosmos of 625 00:30:30.480 --> 00:30:34.319 atoms that Mr. Ringading expanding into the galaxy in the 626 00:30:34.319 --> 00:30:35.579 universe. 627 00:30:35.640 --> 00:30:38.940 But it's a lovely tribute in that you don't have to have seen the 628 00:30:38.940 --> 00:30:42.779 incredible shrinking man to get it, you know, and that also being 629 00:30:42.779 --> 00:30:46.019 1957 ties into nuclear power and what have you. 630 00:30:46.079 --> 00:30:49.920 And I'd also just like to finish by saying, I've got my link to 631 00:30:49.920 --> 00:30:54.900 the Dalek invasion of Earth, which is a new friend sacrifices 632 00:30:54.900 --> 00:30:58.200 himself to save our heroes, and at the crucial moment is reunited 633 00:30:58.200 --> 00:31:01.500 with a lost, loved one, whom the villain had transformed in some 634 00:31:01.500 --> 00:31:01.799 way. 635 00:31:01.799 --> 00:31:06.420 So, just like the guy who's helping Ian runs into his brother 636 00:31:06.420 --> 00:31:09.960 who's become a robberman and sacrifices his life and he's with his 637 00:31:09.960 --> 00:31:10.680 brother at the end. 638 00:31:10.740 --> 00:31:15.900 You've got the lovely thing between Reginald Pye and his wife and 639 00:31:15.900 --> 00:31:18.420 somehow she appears and hands him the matches. 640 00:31:18.539 --> 00:31:21.240 Yeah. 641 00:31:21.240 --> 00:31:21.660 Yeah. 642 00:31:21.720 --> 00:31:25.500 And and I think that's the one of the areas for me that this 643 00:31:25.500 --> 00:31:27.779 improves on the devil's cord, which is the devil's cord. 644 00:31:27.839 --> 00:31:29.759 Yes, the Beatles come along and save the day, but they never 645 00:31:29.759 --> 00:31:31.200 really know why they're saving the day. 646 00:31:31.319 --> 00:31:36.180 Whereas here, Reginald Pye is absolutely, he knows what he is 647 00:31:36.180 --> 00:31:38.039 about to lose as well as his life. 648 00:31:38.099 --> 00:31:39.660 He knows what's at stake. 649 00:31:39.720 --> 00:31:43.079 He's been there the whole time and he takes the decision. 650 00:31:43.140 --> 00:31:45.420 And I think that's a lot more powerful. 651 00:31:45.480 --> 00:31:49.019 And Brendan also, I think if you're looking for a thematic link to 652 00:31:49.019 --> 00:31:53.160 Dalek invasion of Earth, um, there's some, again, Dalek invasion 653 00:31:53.160 --> 00:31:59.339 of Earth about nuclear power and the Aten bomb that the idea of 654 00:31:59.339 --> 00:32:01.920 like the Daleks are tampering with the forces of creation. 655 00:32:01.980 --> 00:32:04.079 I think that's there as well. 656 00:32:04.140 --> 00:32:05.220 Yeah nice. 657 00:32:05.279 --> 00:32:07.920 Richard, do you have any final thoughts? 658 00:32:07.980 --> 00:32:14.579 I saw Incredible Shrinking Man at the Cremon Orpheum 35 years ago 659 00:32:14.579 --> 00:32:17.279 this year and it's all just come back. 660 00:32:17.339 --> 00:32:18.480 Thank you, Brendan. 661 00:32:18.539 --> 00:32:24.359 Um, I was going to note that it, it's really keying into modern 662 00:32:24.359 --> 00:32:29.400 quantum theory, Buddhism and cosmology and spirituality, the final 663 00:32:29.400 --> 00:32:34.259 line about being swamped by light, um, Mr. Morningstar, if you 664 00:32:34.259 --> 00:32:37.500 were indeed the fallen god of light, and then you come back to the 665 00:32:37.500 --> 00:32:41.640 light and you become one with the light, is all of those things 666 00:32:41.640 --> 00:32:46.440 and it's right at the apex of all of that thinking, and I love 667 00:32:46.440 --> 00:32:49.980 that it was in a 1957 sci-fi film and that it's something are 668 00:32:49.980 --> 00:32:51.420 talking about all the time now. 669 00:32:51.480 --> 00:32:52.920 Yeah, it's kind of perfect. 670 00:32:52.980 --> 00:32:56.220 I mean, of course, it's not completely perfect because it's Doctor 671 00:32:56.220 --> 00:32:59.519 Who, and we'd have nothing to say if it was, and we don't want it 672 00:32:59.519 --> 00:33:00.539 to be, and that's the point. 673 00:33:00.599 --> 00:33:05.880 Yeah, I really hope this is getting the attention it deserves 674 00:33:05.880 --> 00:33:09.480 because the whole team seemed to really be pulling it together 675 00:33:09.480 --> 00:33:11.759 even when we weren't so sure last year. 676 00:33:11.880 --> 00:33:14.700 I'm really feeling a confidence in the mix this time. 677 00:33:14.819 --> 00:33:18.420 Yeah, you know, Richard, not perfect in many ways, I think, but 678 00:33:18.420 --> 00:33:23.220 also trying for something and having some interesting ideas and 679 00:33:23.220 --> 00:33:25.380 actually toying with the format a little bit. 680 00:33:25.440 --> 00:33:29.460 I think this is, as we said earlier, maybe the most broadly 681 00:33:29.460 --> 00:33:32.640 successful episode of GT Zero so far. 682 00:33:32.700 --> 00:33:33.480 Yeah. 683 00:33:33.539 --> 00:33:36.059 So that's all the time we've got for now. 684 00:33:36.059 --> 00:33:38.400 We have one or 2 things to plug. 685 00:33:38.460 --> 00:33:39.480 Well, just one thing, really. 686 00:33:39.539 --> 00:33:43.799 This Sunday, 500-year diary, season two, the 2nd coming, will 687 00:33:43.799 --> 00:33:47.099 start with our episode on the Dalek invasion of Earth. 688 00:33:47.160 --> 00:33:49.319 If you are wondering what on earth all that was about. 689 00:33:51.960 --> 00:33:59.099 And you can catch up with 500-year diary at 500-year diary.com. 690 00:33:59.160 --> 00:34:02.039 And of course, if you are already subscribed, it will come 691 00:34:02.039 --> 00:34:05.220 directly to your podcatcher of choice. 692 00:34:05.519 --> 00:34:09.059 Brandon, is there anything else that we need to mention, do you 693 00:34:09.059 --> 00:34:09.239 think? 694 00:34:09.539 --> 00:34:14.940 No, but I think we will have a new three-handed game next week. 695 00:34:15.000 --> 00:34:19.199 So, and I will reveal what that is next Monday because I can't 696 00:34:19.199 --> 00:34:19.980 quite remember. 697 00:34:20.039 --> 00:34:20.820 I think it's Emily. 698 00:34:20.880 --> 00:34:21.420 It's Emily. 699 00:34:21.480 --> 00:34:22.019 It's Emily. 700 00:34:22.079 --> 00:34:24.659 It's the very last episode ever filmed. 701 00:34:24.719 --> 00:34:25.619 That's right. 702 00:34:25.679 --> 00:34:27.059 The very last episode of the New Avengers. 703 00:34:27.119 --> 00:34:32.340 And it's got Joanna Lumley clinging to a car in a car wash. 704 00:34:32.400 --> 00:34:33.780 So it's just worth watching for that. 705 00:34:33.840 --> 00:34:35.639 Clinging to a car wash in Canada. 706 00:34:35.699 --> 00:34:40.800 And of course, we have an episode of Untitled Star Trek Project, in 707 00:34:40.800 --> 00:34:44.280 all likelihood, coming through on Friday. 708 00:34:44.280 --> 00:34:49.139 All right, so all that remains is for me to say, until next time 709 00:34:49.139 --> 00:34:52.920 if you're out there, Lizzy Abel, Hassan Chaudhary and Robin 710 00:34:52.920 --> 00:34:56.699 Gossage, thank you very much for listening and good night. 711 00:34:56.760 --> 00:34:57.900 Good night. 712 00:34:57.960 --> 00:34:58.920 Good night. 713 00:34:58.980 --> 00:34:59.820 See you soon. 714 00:34:59.880 --> 00:35:00.900 And good then.