WEBVTT NOTE This transcript was created on 2026-06-07 at 11:55:11 1 00:00:00.000 --> 00:00:14.400 Hello, dear listener, and welcome back to the 2nd Grace and Bountiful Human Empire, the only Doctor Who flashcast that doesn't just sit there watching Doctor Who, surrounded by merch and giving its scores out of 10, we podcast about it as well. 2 00:00:14.460 --> 00:00:16.260 I'm Nathan. 3 00:00:16.320 --> 00:00:17.460 I'm Brendan. 4 00:00:17.519 --> 00:00:18.719 I'm Peter. 5 00:00:18.780 --> 00:00:20.640 I'm Todd. 6 00:00:20.699 --> 00:00:25.859 I'm Bugs Bunny and a push-up bra and Sigourney Weaver blonde wig for this one. 7 00:00:26.879 --> 00:00:40.500 So we're here to talk about the 2nd episode of season 2 of the new era, which is Lux by Russell T. Davis and directed by Amanda Brachi, who I know literally nothing about. 8 00:00:41.159 --> 00:00:50.700 And I want to start us off by just going around the group and talking a little bit about how we felt this landed. 9 00:00:50.759 --> 00:00:54.119 Let's start with you, Todd. 10 00:00:54.299 --> 00:00:56.219 I was captivated. 11 00:00:56.280 --> 00:01:01.500 I thought it was a visual tour de Force, and I actually felt for once. 12 00:01:01.859 --> 00:01:06.060 Russell T. Davies hit all the marks really well, push boundaries without going over. 13 00:01:06.780 --> 00:01:09.959 Yeah, I thought this was absolutely magnificent. 14 00:01:10.019 --> 00:01:18.239 It is possibly the best of the era so far and that's considering that I really loved things like dot and bubble, boom, 73 yards last year. 15 00:01:18.299 --> 00:01:19.680 So it's in great company. 16 00:01:19.739 --> 00:01:21.120 Richard? 17 00:01:21.180 --> 00:01:25.079 Oh, I hate to be bland, but I agree with everyone. 18 00:01:25.140 --> 00:01:27.599 Maybe it's the best arc so far. 19 00:01:27.659 --> 00:01:34.980 I'm really loving how the H word is being brought in and makes more sense now and just seems to have more impetus. 20 00:01:35.099 --> 00:01:37.379 Everything felt to me a bit messy last year. 21 00:01:37.439 --> 00:01:53.819 This is my 1st go on this flash cuss, so I'm going backwards, but I really loved how it handled things that were touched on last year, but socially and politically as well as narratively, and it's gorgeous, and it looks sumptuous. 22 00:01:53.879 --> 00:01:56.340 Can we just say marigold, I think is my safe word for this. 23 00:01:56.400 --> 00:02:00.359 The dress, I was waiting for Todd to talk about Belinda's hair. 24 00:02:00.420 --> 00:02:05.340 I want to hear his opinion on that Divine, it's just gorgeous to look at. 25 00:02:05.400 --> 00:02:05.879 It really is. 26 00:02:06.000 --> 00:02:07.859 And Peter. 27 00:02:07.980 --> 00:02:15.300 Well, 1st of all, Richard, I want to say, if that's a big call calling it the best arc so far when 1966, the arc is right in front of me. 28 00:02:15.960 --> 00:02:22.500 I think this was, I would agree, possibly the most successful shooty episode so far. 29 00:02:22.560 --> 00:02:32.400 I think the 1st 15 minutes are actually a very good traditional Doctor Who set up an investigation and I would have had no issue if the episode had continued along those lines. 30 00:02:32.460 --> 00:02:37.199 It reminded me heavily of the idiot's lantern, I think, and I also like that story. 31 00:02:37.259 --> 00:02:41.939 But then when it spins off into something altogether more interesting and left field. 32 00:02:42.000 --> 00:02:45.419 Um, it turns into a different episode and I'm also looking good for that. 33 00:02:45.479 --> 00:02:50.939 Yeah, I think Russell's discovered a new thing that Doctor Who can do and we seem to be doing it once a year. 34 00:02:51.000 --> 00:02:57.360 And so we've had the giggle, the devil's chord, and now this. 35 00:02:57.419 --> 00:03:02.699 And I think, you know, they give us a chance for a spectacular villain. 36 00:03:02.759 --> 00:03:05.759 They give us a chance to go back to the 20th century. 37 00:03:05.819 --> 00:03:13.740 It occurs to me that going back to the 1950s is like Philip Inchcliffe going back to the Victorian era given how time has moved on. 38 00:03:13.800 --> 00:03:16.139 And it's beautifully done. 39 00:03:16.199 --> 00:03:19.080 And I think that that's probably what we should talk about next. 40 00:03:19.139 --> 00:03:24.300 What did you think about just the look of Miami 1952? 41 00:03:24.360 --> 00:03:25.680 Brandon. 42 00:03:25.740 --> 00:03:39.240 I I loved the colour of it because there's a temptation when we go back into history where television was black and white to assume that everything is sort of shades of brown with just the occasional pop of colour here and there. 43 00:03:39.300 --> 00:03:44.759 It reminded me of Batman the animated series where they drew all the backgrounds on black paper. 44 00:03:44.819 --> 00:03:55.439 So it was like we had in the exterior night scenes and in the cinema, we had this dark palette behind everything and then all this colour coming at us, absolutely beautiful. 45 00:03:55.500 --> 00:03:57.599 It kept the scales small. 46 00:03:57.659 --> 00:04:02.099 Oh, I thought, which was a benefit because you can then dress very successfully. 47 00:04:02.159 --> 00:04:05.879 You're not overstretching, you know, even the budget, the dock 2 has now. 48 00:04:05.939 --> 00:04:15.780 I just thought the production as a whole was successful, and I think much better than the devil scored, which was attempting the same thing, but in some ways was hand fisted. 49 00:04:15.900 --> 00:04:23.339 So even elements like the loops of film coming out and sort of snagging, the doctor just looked better integrated with live action. 50 00:04:23.339 --> 00:04:30.480 And the final moments of Mr. Ring a Ding had a sort of majesty to them, the way that they were put together. 51 00:04:30.540 --> 00:04:39.480 And it followed on from last week's episode where the sequence where the certificates touch had some real creative visual storytelling to it. 52 00:04:39.540 --> 00:04:41.220 So I thought it was good. 53 00:04:41.639 --> 00:04:44.399 Todd, we need to ask you about the hair. 54 00:04:47.220 --> 00:04:49.139 I liked her here. 55 00:04:49.199 --> 00:04:50.519 I thought it was very much of a time. 56 00:04:50.579 --> 00:04:54.959 I much prefer female assistants here when it's longer, Nathan. 57 00:04:55.019 --> 00:04:56.100 Richard. 58 00:04:56.160 --> 00:05:01.379 She looked wonderful and, you know, that waste, what's with that impossible waste? 59 00:05:01.439 --> 00:05:04.259 I knew you'd love that line, Todd. don't know. 60 00:05:04.680 --> 00:05:13.139 Costuming was just sumptuous and it was just the lighting, the sets, the costumes, everything just worked so well together. 61 00:05:13.199 --> 00:05:14.939 And as I said, it was sumptuous. 62 00:05:15.000 --> 00:05:22.620 I just revelled in it as well as the cartoon aspect, which was just sublime. 63 00:05:22.680 --> 00:05:24.060 Yeah, well, we'll get there. 64 00:05:24.120 --> 00:05:24.660 We'll get there. 65 00:05:24.720 --> 00:05:30.300 But I want to shout out to Shooty's outfit as well and his period here. 66 00:05:30.360 --> 00:05:32.579 I thought that that was particularly good. 67 00:05:32.639 --> 00:05:37.980 And just the 2 of them together just looked magnificent, like really quite extraordinary. 68 00:05:38.040 --> 00:05:44.279 I thought, you know, like it would have been slightly cheesy for him to have a yellow bow tie to match her kind of yellow dress. 69 00:05:44.339 --> 00:05:45.899 And he didn't. 70 00:05:45.959 --> 00:05:48.540 But gee whiz, he looks great. 71 00:05:48.600 --> 00:05:55.439 And the decision to give him new clothes, you know, on a regular basis, I think ends up being a really good one. 72 00:05:55.500 --> 00:06:03.480 It's very clear that he's the doctor even in long shot and we just get just beautiful clothing. 73 00:06:03.540 --> 00:06:12.600 The idea that the doctor dresses up to go back into the past, which is something that we haven't always had, even in modern Doctor Who, is a great thing. 74 00:06:12.660 --> 00:06:16.379 It's what Hartnell did, and I'm absolutely in favour of it. 75 00:06:16.500 --> 00:06:19.019 What did you think of 1952, Richard? 76 00:06:19.620 --> 00:06:24.720 Well, of course, the architectural motif's got me a bit giggly and excited. 77 00:06:24.779 --> 00:06:27.000 So architecturally, of course. 78 00:06:27.060 --> 00:06:37.860 I really like that it contains itself to just one part of a street and it doesn't, it's not over ambitious, and of course, that makes the threat tighter and harsher. 79 00:06:37.920 --> 00:06:39.720 It's the intimacy of it. 80 00:06:39.779 --> 00:06:43.259 And then, of course, there's the intimacy of the cinematic experience. 81 00:06:43.319 --> 00:06:44.819 This is super clever. 82 00:06:44.879 --> 00:06:48.120 Can I go on about antecedents yet or shall we do that a bit later? 83 00:06:48.180 --> 00:06:58.740 Well, I think it might be a good segue to talk about the cinema and the way cinema and things work and then we can talk about Lux Imperato himself. 84 00:06:58.860 --> 00:07:01.439 So yes, go on, I think. 85 00:07:01.500 --> 00:07:13.319 Well, I will lead into why the optional, like, I love the way they've realised Lux as an animated character from the 1940s, actually. 86 00:07:13.439 --> 00:07:21.839 Um, because he looks like some of the ant creatures that Bugs has met Rabbit Rampage, um, by Chuck Jones in 1955 is the one that comes to mind. 87 00:07:21.899 --> 00:07:37.019 Do you remember when they're always exploding the miss on scene and breaking the frame and doing that very French thing that we've talked about on podcasts before of, you know, of breaking the 4th wall and animation, actually talking about what film is. 88 00:07:37.079 --> 00:07:38.639 I love that Russell is so onto this. 89 00:07:38.699 --> 00:07:40.860 It's a thinniest dream. 90 00:07:40.920 --> 00:07:42.300 And then, of course, we get to the fan folk. 91 00:07:42.360 --> 00:08:01.920 But what I love about this as a cinematic experience is that it really pays homage to being in a theatre, and being immersed, and what immersion actually means, and the danger that you feel in, um, the immediacy of being in a theatre and watching it is completely different from watching something at home. 92 00:08:01.980 --> 00:08:04.319 I got a bit of that watching this. 93 00:08:04.379 --> 00:08:15.959 And when he does climb out of the screen, just as Bugs did in many, many Chuck Jones and Matthew Maltese, Warner Brothers cartoons at the time, is actually quite a frightening. 94 00:08:16.019 --> 00:08:17.399 It really hits the mark. 95 00:08:17.459 --> 00:08:23.819 I'm actually thinking of the Chut Jones animation from 1953, which is called Daka Mark. which has... 96 00:08:23.819 --> 00:08:24.720 Duck a muck is excellent. 97 00:08:24.779 --> 00:08:25.620 Yeah, yeah. 98 00:08:25.680 --> 00:08:27.420 And again, has that sort of thing. 99 00:08:27.480 --> 00:08:29.279 And of course, that's Chuck Jones, again. 100 00:08:29.339 --> 00:08:30.420 Daffy, isn't it? 101 00:08:30.480 --> 00:08:30.839 Yeah. 102 00:08:30.899 --> 00:08:32.700 Yeah, yeah, yeah. just a year after this. 103 00:08:32.759 --> 00:08:33.960 It's good. 104 00:08:34.019 --> 00:08:39.840 But, you know, watching TV, as we know, is so immersive. 105 00:08:39.899 --> 00:08:48.720 You know, here we are talking about a TV show that we experienced, we used to watching Doctor Who to be scared and to laugh and to feel things. 106 00:08:48.779 --> 00:08:51.360 And so the screen is always porous. 107 00:08:51.419 --> 00:08:54.299 And so this is not a new idea by any stretch. 108 00:08:54.360 --> 00:09:11.039 And what we get to is that all 3 of those gods, not including puppy Soo Tech, but the other 3 gods, all have some control over Doctor Who the TV show, as does Mrs. Flant. 109 00:09:11.100 --> 00:09:19.440 And so, you know, in the Devil's Court, we had that moment where Maestro strikes the set so that they can do a musical number. 110 00:09:19.500 --> 00:09:28.440 Here, we have that absolutely much more explicit because this is about a god who is in charge of the visual medium. 111 00:09:28.500 --> 00:09:32.399 And so like, I just think all of that stuff worked incredibly well. 112 00:09:32.460 --> 00:09:37.980 Just having shooty tap on the inside of my TV screen was like so incredible. 113 00:09:38.220 --> 00:09:40.679 I did think that it worked well. 114 00:09:40.740 --> 00:09:42.960 But by the same token. 115 00:09:43.019 --> 00:09:44.940 I do think the conceits were all that well developed. 116 00:09:45.000 --> 00:09:53.340 Being turned into cartoon form, you know, escaping by breaking the frames, entering a reality where, you know, you're the fiction and being observed. 117 00:09:53.399 --> 00:09:57.899 That's all being done before, and in some respects, it's sort of the low hanging fruit. 118 00:09:57.960 --> 00:10:00.480 So yeah, I really did enjoy this episode. 119 00:10:00.539 --> 00:10:12.000 I thought it was very good on its own terms, but I did also think that in the hands of a more imaginatively thorough writer like Stephen Motha, it might have been developed a little bit more beyond quite obvious trips. 120 00:10:12.059 --> 00:10:16.139 But what I liked was the fact that the animation didn't outstay its welcome. 121 00:10:16.200 --> 00:10:22.559 We had the 2D and then they got depth and then it began to pop and then they went back into reality. 122 00:10:22.620 --> 00:10:26.159 And I think if we just had the 2D for too long, it would have not worked. 123 00:10:26.220 --> 00:10:35.639 I'm thinking back to one of the Chibnell episodes where I sort of just tuned out, whereas I think here it was just long enough and it kept on moving and kept on moving and that was really good. 124 00:10:35.700 --> 00:10:38.940 Many episodes of chip or 0 work cartoonish, I would agree. 125 00:10:42.419 --> 00:10:45.000 On that notion, Peter. 126 00:10:45.059 --> 00:10:46.679 I partially agree with you in that. 127 00:10:46.740 --> 00:10:56.700 I think another writer would have fleshed more of those out, but I think possibly we would have had fewer of them in order to give it time to breathe or that the story may have needed to be longer. 128 00:10:56.759 --> 00:11:00.000 For me, I really enjoyed what we got. 129 00:11:00.059 --> 00:11:01.379 I love animation. 130 00:11:01.440 --> 00:11:05.940 So I was kind of like, I'd love to see more of animated Dr. and Belinda running about. 131 00:11:06.000 --> 00:11:20.639 But at the same time, instead, what we get is we get this beautiful, self-contained, animated bit that is about them opening up to each other, and it's doing the whole, under last of the time lords thing in a new and interesting way, which is something that continues to astound me about this era. 132 00:11:20.639 --> 00:11:27.779 Like Russell is having to do all the things he's done 5 or 6 times before, and do them in new ways, and for the most part, he succeeds. 133 00:11:27.840 --> 00:11:29.879 The the 4th war break. 134 00:11:29.940 --> 00:11:36.539 I got a shiver when they came right up to the screen and there was a little like 10 year old part of my brain that's going, no. 135 00:11:36.600 --> 00:11:39.840 I'm not going to come through my television. 136 00:11:41.220 --> 00:11:44.220 I think that that was incredibly well done. 137 00:11:44.279 --> 00:11:56.100 Just, you know, having them tap, having the screen fall down and smash, so the glass falls out of the tally, and then having them walk out and the, just the way that that's erected works really quite well, I think. 138 00:11:56.159 --> 00:12:01.980 And so I think that we'll talk about those 3 fans a little bit later. 139 00:12:02.039 --> 00:12:06.179 But what I would like to talk about now is our villain. 140 00:12:06.240 --> 00:12:08.279 So we've had Neil Patrick Harris. 141 00:12:08.340 --> 00:12:15.659 We've had Jinx Monsoon, and now we have Alan coming back in Doctor Who, playing Mr. Ringa-Ding, ding. 142 00:12:15.720 --> 00:12:17.580 Don't make me laugh. 143 00:12:17.700 --> 00:12:19.139 It's very good. 144 00:12:20.039 --> 00:12:21.720 Really very good. 145 00:12:21.779 --> 00:12:24.000 What did you think of that, Richard? 146 00:12:24.059 --> 00:12:25.559 It's period, isn't it? 147 00:12:25.620 --> 00:12:26.639 I think it works. 148 00:12:26.879 --> 00:12:29.399 You know, I love animation so much. 149 00:12:29.460 --> 00:12:36.899 I actually spent 25 grand learning it 20 years ago. and then realised it isn't actually a career you can make a living out of. anyway. 150 00:12:36.960 --> 00:12:38.100 Well, I couldn't. 151 00:12:38.159 --> 00:12:40.080 Um, I adore it. 152 00:12:40.139 --> 00:12:51.000 The animation's flawless, but really, as in with all of these things, the voice artist is 1st and then the character is animated around him in 3D because that's how we do it now. 153 00:12:51.059 --> 00:12:56.639 So when you see the rendered ant creature with the pig nose, I'm trying to work out what those references are about. 154 00:12:56.700 --> 00:12:58.679 I don't think it's very kind to Mr. Cummings. 155 00:12:58.740 --> 00:13:03.720 But, um, you know, he would have, he would have done some of the movement as well. 156 00:13:03.840 --> 00:13:06.120 And it's flawless animation. 157 00:13:06.179 --> 00:13:10.139 Do we know Disney, did the Disney crew work on that or is it all Cardiff? 158 00:13:10.200 --> 00:13:19.980 I don't know, but I mean, the interesting thing is, you know, there's those things in Mickey Mouse and all of those characters that have those dog noses and you kind of be going, are they dogs? 159 00:13:20.039 --> 00:13:21.659 Like, what the hell even? 160 00:13:22.139 --> 00:13:25.440 And so it was very definitely that, I think. 161 00:13:26.159 --> 00:13:30.120 They even make reference to it, and that is blue. 162 00:13:30.120 --> 00:13:34.440 Um, there's a... because of moonlight. 163 00:13:34.500 --> 00:13:57.480 There's lots and lots of film references here and the ant feelers that it has are also nods to just anthropomorphism in animation, but it goes much dark. the max Fleischer cartoons of that are the earlier ones that were really dark, as in, like, you know, as dark as this, um, had more of a, of a look of this character. 164 00:13:57.539 --> 00:13:59.220 This isn't really a Disney looking character. 165 00:13:59.279 --> 00:14:02.519 So whoever's worked on this really knows their stuff. 166 00:14:02.580 --> 00:14:10.080 But if you're talking about the character itself, it is my favourite villain so far of the new era, as in its realisation. 167 00:14:10.139 --> 00:14:27.179 I watched like Peter, I went back and watched the Jinx Monsoon episode and it actually landed a lot better for me today after watching Lux, but it is flawed and I think it's about timing in just the way it got itself over onto the screen, which this does not suffer at all. 168 00:14:27.240 --> 00:14:28.139 It's a lot tighter. 169 00:14:28.200 --> 00:14:34.019 It's a lot more closely realised, and it's a lot closer to, it's antecedency. 170 00:14:34.139 --> 00:14:39.899 I think it understands what it's trying to do by aping what has gone before it in a very visceral way. 171 00:14:39.960 --> 00:14:50.940 The character is unsettling and there are animation tricks for a character design in what you do to make a character warm and friendly and accessible. 172 00:14:51.000 --> 00:14:53.879 Bugs life and ants both did that very well. 173 00:14:53.940 --> 00:15:00.779 And then you look at this one and there are deliberately drawn things to make you mistrust the character. 174 00:15:00.840 --> 00:15:02.039 And the pig's nose is one of them. 175 00:15:02.100 --> 00:15:03.179 It's mixing up. 176 00:15:03.240 --> 00:15:06.480 It's mixing up types Have we said tropes yet in this episode? 177 00:15:06.539 --> 00:15:07.440 I don't think we have. 178 00:15:07.500 --> 00:15:09.120 We need to in that case. 179 00:15:09.179 --> 00:15:13.080 Yeah, so it is deliberately designed to be just slightly off. 180 00:15:13.139 --> 00:15:14.700 I think it does it very well. 181 00:15:14.759 --> 00:15:18.000 I thought he looked a little bit like Jiminy cricket. 182 00:15:18.059 --> 00:15:24.779 Um, and it also put me in mind of um, do you know Steamboat Scratchy from um, The Simpsons? 183 00:15:25.740 --> 00:15:31.320 I don't have that kind of thing when he started malevolently looking out of the screen. 184 00:15:31.379 --> 00:15:34.379 It sort of had that dark turn to it, which I really liked. 185 00:15:34.500 --> 00:15:38.519 The whole thing put me in mind of the idiot's lantern. 186 00:15:38.580 --> 00:15:45.120 And I think if the idiot's lantern had been an episode now, you could very well transplant that to the wire, being one of the pantheon. 187 00:15:45.120 --> 00:16:00.480 Um, and even some of the story bits were the same because you had, if you'd replaced Mr. Magpie, Reginald Pie, and you replaced the wire with Lux Imperata, and you replaced people having their faces drawn out of them by the TV screen with people getting trapped in the film cells. 188 00:16:00.539 --> 00:16:04.200 Then you start to see, you know, the plots moving gear by gear. 189 00:16:04.259 --> 00:16:07.860 But, you know, like I say, I think that's a pretty good basis to work from. 190 00:16:07.919 --> 00:16:09.600 I think Idiot Lantern's a pretty good episode. 191 00:16:10.080 --> 00:16:25.620 I think the thing that it does differently, though, is that porosity between the real world and the world of fiction, I think, and that is a feature of this pantheon, really, with the exception of Zoo Tech, and I really like it. 192 00:16:25.679 --> 00:16:28.019 Maybe a big hint of where we're heading. 193 00:16:28.080 --> 00:16:28.620 Yeah. 194 00:16:28.679 --> 00:16:38.279 Well, I mean, there's that great thing in in the Devil's Cord where the doctor and Jinx Monsoon are kind of trying to rest control over who gets to look at the camera. 195 00:16:38.460 --> 00:16:46.740 You know, when the doctor's winning, he gets to regard the camera for a 2nd and all of that sort of thing and he gets to take control of the TV show at the end. 196 00:16:46.799 --> 00:16:51.779 All of that sort of stuff is something that we couldn't have done earlier, and I'm glad that Russell brought it in. 197 00:16:51.840 --> 00:16:52.799 What do you think, Brendan? 198 00:16:52.860 --> 00:16:57.659 Um, yes, yeah, I thought it was incredibly effectively realised. 199 00:16:57.720 --> 00:17:01.559 In answer to Richard's question earlier, the animation was done by Frame Store. 200 00:17:01.559 --> 00:17:02.879 Oh, they're great. 201 00:17:02.940 --> 00:17:18.059 Yeah, a long history, including most of the Daniel Craig bonds and a lot of the more recent, well, I spent more recent, a lot of the Marvel films over the past 10 years, although they are not a Disney subsidiary, I should point out, but it wouldn't surprise me if Disney put them put them onto it. 202 00:17:18.119 --> 00:17:30.660 But I'd like to point out something from friend of the podcast and also former podcast guest Maxwell, which is all 3 members of the pantheon we've seen so far have been played by gay or otherwise queer actors. 203 00:17:31.019 --> 00:17:32.759 And I... 204 00:17:32.759 --> 00:17:33.420 Always the villain. 205 00:17:33.480 --> 00:17:42.779 Yep, And I said to him, and the original Harbinger of Soutech, Bernard Archard, was, of course, in a relationship with his partner for 60 years. 206 00:17:42.839 --> 00:17:47.579 So I don't, I don't know, I'm not, I'm not saying anything about that. 207 00:17:47.640 --> 00:17:49.680 I'm just pointing it out as Max pointed it out to me. 208 00:17:49.740 --> 00:17:51.240 We're divine. 209 00:17:51.299 --> 00:17:52.859 He's essentially the take away. 210 00:17:54.240 --> 00:17:55.859 And watch it. 211 00:17:57.960 --> 00:18:00.000 Alan was fantastic. 212 00:18:00.059 --> 00:18:04.619 He really, he just made that role his own. 213 00:18:04.680 --> 00:18:07.079 It was just mesmerising to watch. 214 00:18:07.200 --> 00:18:11.759 And I think that's one of the things about this story is that they were all so good. 215 00:18:11.819 --> 00:18:15.059 I thought Belinda was was fabulous. 216 00:18:15.119 --> 00:18:23.039 All the lines about Brock Hudson and HIV and were just handled so well and then all the talk about segregation, how all that was done. 217 00:18:23.099 --> 00:18:24.839 And the mother of the boy. 218 00:18:24.900 --> 00:18:27.480 My God, she just sold the whole thing. 219 00:18:27.539 --> 00:18:33.960 Like if, if that, if she had been a bad actress or even half standard, it would have fallen down a bit, but she was so good. 220 00:18:34.019 --> 00:18:47.880 I just was thoroughly engrossed in her performance, that when they did the fake out with the policeman, I actually thought that she had turned because it was so easy to blame black people for what's happened to her boy, like, and I was so convinced that that had happened. 221 00:18:47.940 --> 00:18:49.259 I thought she was tremendous. 222 00:18:49.319 --> 00:18:55.140 There's that scene in the diner and you've got a little gay boy behind the counter. 223 00:18:55.200 --> 00:19:02.940 You've got this Jewish woman and you've got these 2 people of colour and it's 4 o'clock in the morning and the normal rules are suspended. 224 00:19:03.000 --> 00:19:05.160 You know, they suspend the rules. 225 00:19:05.160 --> 00:19:15.660 And I just think that that's just that little kind of, you know, all of these people on the edges that are meeting together in silence and in darkness. 226 00:19:15.720 --> 00:19:16.619 I thought was terrific. 227 00:19:16.680 --> 00:19:20.579 That stuff about segregation, I think, was just, you know, like quite extraordinary. 228 00:19:20.640 --> 00:19:23.220 And it has to address the problem. 229 00:19:23.579 --> 00:19:25.799 Why doesn't the doctor overthrow it? 230 00:19:25.859 --> 00:19:39.240 That's one of my major problems with Rosa, is that the doctor should trick the governor of Alabama into blowing up the state house with him and his family in it because that's what the doctor would do in that situation. 231 00:19:39.299 --> 00:19:43.259 But because the doctor's fictional, he can only deal with fictional problems. 232 00:19:43.319 --> 00:19:47.519 So here he just says, I'm waiting for other people to topple this world. 233 00:19:47.519 --> 00:19:50.220 And in the meantime, I'm just going to shine. 234 00:19:50.519 --> 00:19:55.380 I thought that was terrific, a very good way of dealing with that problem, I think. 235 00:19:56.220 --> 00:20:07.619 I also thought that scene in the diner was the best scene in the episode, even with the more attention grabbing things going on, it played to the better aspects of Stuti's performance, I think. 236 00:20:07.680 --> 00:20:15.359 And it really shows, I think, like, as the whole episode did, what a breath of fresh air, um, for Rada, C2 has been. 237 00:20:15.420 --> 00:20:23.640 She's an adult companion, following the fairly irritatingly juvenile ruby, and it really ups the program, I think. 238 00:20:23.700 --> 00:20:30.059 That bit where she asks the doctor whether he should be just introduced as just doctor and he says yes. 239 00:20:30.119 --> 00:20:32.700 And she just says ridiculously. 240 00:20:33.420 --> 00:20:34.980 So good. 241 00:20:35.039 --> 00:20:37.200 That's Barbara. 242 00:20:37.259 --> 00:20:40.500 Yeah, Barbara Verney, I thought... 243 00:20:40.559 --> 00:20:45.779 Like it's just so natural and she is in that category for me, Barbara. 244 00:20:45.779 --> 00:20:47.519 Sarah, Liz. 245 00:20:47.579 --> 00:20:49.200 It's got to go nuts yet. 246 00:20:51.359 --> 00:20:54.599 Richard, did you want to talk about the segregation thing or anything? 247 00:20:54.660 --> 00:20:56.279 That would be interesting. 248 00:20:56.339 --> 00:21:07.200 I mean, none of us are really qualified, but we have a new friend of the podcast, Alan, who's in the States, and he's been following everything we're doing, which is so sweet, and thank you. 249 00:21:07.319 --> 00:21:19.980 And he's a black man in his 60s who does a lot of podcasting himself and he said, oh, guys, if you're going to talk about this, please mention for us just how fantastic this episode is. 250 00:21:20.039 --> 00:21:22.680 And I went, you're talking about the sun down a thing. 251 00:21:22.680 --> 00:21:38.460 And he went, yeah, yeah, but it's, he said, it's just the way that, and I'll quote him, that Russell pays attention to the race issue in such a simple and direct and conversational manner, and then absolutely turns on its head and uses it as a taunt from Lux. 252 00:21:38.519 --> 00:21:47.160 Because of course, it's always the villains who misinterpret what's going on because they can only see things from their own viewpoint. 253 00:21:47.220 --> 00:21:48.660 And I think that's fabulous. 254 00:21:48.720 --> 00:21:49.559 I really do. 255 00:21:49.740 --> 00:21:51.359 All right. 256 00:21:51.420 --> 00:22:00.720 So we want to talk about the fan reaction, obviously, and it's our 3 fans, Lizzy, Hassan, and Robin, who get a visit from the doctor. 257 00:22:00.720 --> 00:22:12.359 I spent a fair bit of time this afternoon just checking out their shelves, and seeing how many Doctor Who the collection things they have. 258 00:22:12.359 --> 00:22:24.779 They definitely have the key to time DVD release, that big box release, and they have the little Slaveen figurine, which you gave me, Brandon, which is on my Doctor Who DVD shelf. 259 00:22:24.839 --> 00:22:28.559 They have that just sort of sat in front of the thing. 260 00:22:28.619 --> 00:22:30.359 And like Tellos. 261 00:22:30.420 --> 00:22:31.079 For God's sake. 262 00:22:31.140 --> 00:22:36.779 This is the 1st mention of Telos in the new series. 30s. 263 00:22:37.259 --> 00:22:39.240 What did you think? 264 00:22:39.299 --> 00:22:39.720 Todd? 265 00:22:39.779 --> 00:22:43.440 Oh, I think some people are going to be outraged because they can't take a joke. 266 00:22:43.500 --> 00:22:46.319 I actually thought they were, they were really great. 267 00:22:46.380 --> 00:22:52.500 And, um, you know, he pushed the boundaries with it and then pulled back on it and I was, it was quite delicious. 268 00:22:52.619 --> 00:23:02.880 You know, he can take a joke by going with the blink thing, even though we all know that if you're a classic series fan, you're never going to vote blinkers number one, but, you know, that's part of the joke, really, isn't it? 269 00:23:02.940 --> 00:23:05.400 And so I just, I just love that. 270 00:23:05.400 --> 00:23:09.359 And I love the fact that at the end they actually had, had a 1st name and a 2nd name in the credits. 271 00:23:09.420 --> 00:23:17.819 They just weren't, you know, just one name and then I kept thinking, well, are they something more? 272 00:23:17.880 --> 00:23:20.519 Are they the gods of Ragnarok was all I could think of? 273 00:23:20.579 --> 00:23:23.519 So, you know, because they've been mentioned and I thought maybe they are. 274 00:23:23.579 --> 00:23:25.859 Oh my god, entertain us. 275 00:23:25.920 --> 00:23:27.960 That's what Alan said, actually. 276 00:23:28.019 --> 00:23:28.859 You mentioned it. 277 00:23:28.920 --> 00:23:29.339 Yeah. 278 00:23:29.400 --> 00:23:30.960 Oh, I hadn't thought of that. 279 00:23:31.079 --> 00:23:34.079 I mean, obviously they're real and the doctor's fictional, right? 280 00:23:36.599 --> 00:23:41.279 But there is enough plausible deniability so that you can have it how you want. 281 00:23:41.339 --> 00:23:46.019 I mean, it is that what really breaks it is their appearance at the end. 282 00:23:46.079 --> 00:23:49.440 And the moment, I think that Lizzie gave it 7 out of 10. 283 00:23:49.799 --> 00:23:57.420 I was convinced that Todd was saying the same thing at the same time, but it's a solid 9 point something, isn't it, I think? 284 00:23:57.539 --> 00:23:59.339 It's a nine. 285 00:23:59.400 --> 00:24:04.140 It could go either way, depending on how the arc was sold, but it's definitely a 9, Nathan. 286 00:24:04.200 --> 00:24:04.559 There you go. 287 00:24:04.619 --> 00:24:08.099 If it's a 7 now, let's wait a couple of years and it'll be a 9 then. 288 00:24:08.160 --> 00:24:09.240 Yeah, yeah, yeah, exactly. 289 00:24:10.740 --> 00:24:13.559 I didn't care much for that scene, honestly. 290 00:24:13.619 --> 00:24:15.539 I love the idea of it. 291 00:24:15.599 --> 00:24:27.240 Um, and I really liked the ultimate breaking of the 4th wall, but I think there was a better and harking back till I was saying earlier, less obvious take on it that would have worked a little bit better. 292 00:24:27.299 --> 00:24:35.519 The door 2 fans were very broad strokes, jewellers decked out in their kind of scarves and fezes to sit down together and watch a TV show. 293 00:24:35.579 --> 00:24:37.500 I know they're not meant to be real. 294 00:24:37.559 --> 00:24:40.079 I know that they're just meant to be sort of cyphers in the fiction. 295 00:24:40.140 --> 00:24:45.480 That's absolutely fine, but we have to, we have to look at what we're actually watching and what's being fed to us. 296 00:24:45.539 --> 00:24:53.819 And regardless of that, I just think they came across as somehow, a less nuanced and maybe less sympathetic take on fans than the Wizkid. 297 00:24:53.880 --> 00:25:01.500 And so while I loved the idea of that scene, and I really did like it on some respects, I think it could have been actually a lot better. 298 00:25:01.559 --> 00:25:21.299 Oh, I just thought that, yeah, they're meant to be tunish, and I pertrified and all the other things because everything else in this story is, and the truth is the little subtle exchanges between them all, when the script drops or the little asides, or the little moments at the end, when they say, oh, we're actually still real. 299 00:25:21.359 --> 00:25:26.640 Um, for better or for worse, I have lots of friends exactly like those people. 300 00:25:26.640 --> 00:25:33.599 And I, when I was 15, I made that scarf and I had those toys, so I'm feeling seen. 301 00:25:33.660 --> 00:25:34.680 Yeah, yeah. 302 00:25:34.680 --> 00:25:37.079 We're here doing a podcast about it 2 days later. 303 00:25:37.140 --> 00:26:03.599 I think, you know, I also really not love the nod to the to the spectrum quality of them when when one of the the girl says, oh, a lot of people find us annoying. and I thought, well, anyone with ADHD or spectrum has said that at some point in their lives and a lot of fandom crossovers with spectrum. and I found that just so sweet and poignant and I really think that would have reached out. 304 00:26:03.660 --> 00:26:09.119 You think about a young person watching this, who will identify with that. 305 00:26:09.180 --> 00:26:11.579 And it's just recognition in a really sweet way. 306 00:26:11.700 --> 00:26:18.599 I thought there was something really warm too about giving them the role of saving the day. 307 00:26:18.660 --> 00:26:25.200 So they tell the doctor how the day is to be saved because they noticed the thing about flammable film stock. 308 00:26:25.259 --> 00:26:34.140 Also, Russell, you're a bastard because we got to watch all of those canisters of film go up in flames at the end of the episode. 309 00:26:34.200 --> 00:26:36.240 I thought there might have been the myth maybe. 310 00:26:36.960 --> 00:26:39.720 God, it was very Pamela, wasn't it? 311 00:26:39.779 --> 00:26:40.920 Yes. 312 00:26:40.920 --> 00:26:43.380 Great Pamela Mash, yeah. 313 00:26:43.440 --> 00:27:02.339 But also, because this is the episode, it's like Gridlock, the episode where the companion properly gets to know the doctor, one of the ways that she gets to know him is by seeing the reaction that his fans have towards him and how they feel about him and how included she is in that immediately. 314 00:27:02.400 --> 00:27:17.400 And I think that that's, you know, like it's not just a sketch in the middle of the episode. crucial to how the episode plays out, both in the science fiction thing and in the character arc, and that it's not as good as blink. 315 00:27:17.460 --> 00:27:19.140 Yeah, well, yes. 316 00:27:19.200 --> 00:27:21.059 I do agree with that. 317 00:27:21.119 --> 00:27:24.779 I think it's a very important scene and I think it's a good scene on a lot of levels. 318 00:27:24.839 --> 00:27:27.599 I just think it could have been a much better scene. 319 00:27:27.660 --> 00:27:35.880 It played into that stereotype of Doctor Who fans where they're sitting intently watching the screen, like not moving. 320 00:27:35.940 --> 00:27:43.559 And those comments about, oh, you know, I always knew it was real, just plays into, I think, a weird stereotype that doesn't really exist. 321 00:27:43.619 --> 00:27:45.240 I just thought it could have been clever. 322 00:27:45.539 --> 00:28:06.180 Yeah, maybe it could have been clever, but I also think on the other hand, it could have been far worse, and I know in other things, Russell has been quite pointed and and sometimes is just too on the nose, and this time, for me, it was just like the rest of the episode, he was just on and it did enough without doing too much. 323 00:28:06.240 --> 00:28:09.059 You're only saying that because you don't have a last name. 324 00:28:10.799 --> 00:28:21.240 Look, I think, however we feel about this scene, it's Russell's attempt to make up for killing a bunch of Doctor Who fans the last time he shot a doctor. 325 00:28:21.359 --> 00:28:22.380 Exactly. 326 00:28:23.220 --> 00:28:24.779 All right. 327 00:28:24.839 --> 00:28:35.819 So, um, we should wind up, but before we do that, let's just sort of go around the table and talk about how we feel about the end of it and how we feel about the show at the moment, Todd. 328 00:28:35.880 --> 00:28:40.740 I love the way in which luck's sort of just became the light. 329 00:28:40.799 --> 00:28:43.140 Like, I thought that was actually really quite clever. 330 00:28:43.259 --> 00:28:56.279 The get out of jail free card for 15 people, I would have liked to have seen perhaps Belinda grab the film and then something happening to it rather than just like, you know, but it was there, but you know, you know what I'm like. 331 00:28:56.339 --> 00:28:57.359 Yeah. 332 00:28:57.420 --> 00:29:00.839 And, uh, no, so I was really happy with that. 333 00:29:00.839 --> 00:29:09.180 And, and then having Mrs. Flood turn up, the 1st time she's been out of a present day as an next door neighbour is interesting to me, right? 334 00:29:09.240 --> 00:29:11.579 How would she now been able to do that? 335 00:29:11.640 --> 00:29:32.819 And I think her knowing how the TV show works and, you know, even nominating the date of episode seven, which obviously came up last week, you know, she has to be in some way involved with a pantheon because she has the same power over the TV show that that is characteristic of them. 336 00:29:32.880 --> 00:29:34.920 What do you think, Brendan? 337 00:29:35.339 --> 00:29:43.079 I really loved the ending and I think, um, going right back to what Richard was saying about antecedents. 338 00:29:43.140 --> 00:29:49.559 I think it deliberately pays homage to 1957, the Incredible Shrinking Man, in which a man is incredible and shrinks. 339 00:29:49.619 --> 00:29:59.880 And eventually, eventually he shrinks past the subatomic level, and that's where the film ends, and it ends with him giving a long monologue, which will just read a part of it out. 340 00:29:59.940 --> 00:30:05.759 So, Mr. Ringading ends by saying, I am everything and I am nothing goodbye. 341 00:30:06.000 --> 00:30:24.660 Um, what uh, Scott Carey says in the incredible shrinking man is so close, the infinitesimal and the infinite, but suddenly I knew that they were really the 2 ends of the same concept, the unbelievably small and the unbelievably vast, eventually meat, like the closing of a gigantic circle. 342 00:30:24.720 --> 00:30:35.579 And it has very similar visuals of him falling into a cosmos of atoms that Mr. Ringading expanding into the galaxy in the universe. 343 00:30:35.640 --> 00:30:46.019 But it's a lovely tribute in that you don't have to have seen the incredible shrinking man to get it, you know, and that also being 1957 ties into nuclear power and what have you. 344 00:30:46.079 --> 00:31:01.799 And I'd also just like to finish by saying, I've got my link to the Dalek invasion of Earth, which is a new friend sacrifices himself to save our heroes, and at the crucial moment is reunited with a lost, loved one, whom the villain had transformed in some way. 345 00:31:01.799 --> 00:31:10.680 So, just like the guy who's helping Ian runs into his brother who's become a robberman and sacrifices his life and he's with his brother at the end. 346 00:31:10.740 --> 00:31:18.420 You've got the lovely thing between Reginald Pye and his wife and somehow she appears and hands him the matches. 347 00:31:18.539 --> 00:31:21.240 Yeah. 348 00:31:21.240 --> 00:31:21.660 Yeah. 349 00:31:21.720 --> 00:31:27.779 And and I think that's the one of the areas for me that this improves on the devil's cord, which is the devil's cord. 350 00:31:27.839 --> 00:31:31.200 Yes, the Beatles come along and save the day, but they never really know why they're saving the day. 351 00:31:31.319 --> 00:31:38.039 Whereas here, Reginald Pye is absolutely, he knows what he is about to lose as well as his life. 352 00:31:38.099 --> 00:31:39.660 He knows what's at stake. 353 00:31:39.720 --> 00:31:43.079 He's been there the whole time and he takes the decision. 354 00:31:43.140 --> 00:31:45.420 And I think that's a lot more powerful. 355 00:31:45.480 --> 00:32:01.920 And Brendan also, I think if you're looking for a thematic link to Dalek invasion of Earth, um, there's some, again, Dalek invasion of Earth about nuclear power and the Aten bomb that the idea of like the Daleks are tampering with the forces of creation. 356 00:32:01.980 --> 00:32:04.079 I think that's there as well. 357 00:32:04.140 --> 00:32:05.220 Yeah nice. 358 00:32:05.279 --> 00:32:07.920 Richard, do you have any final thoughts? 359 00:32:07.980 --> 00:32:17.279 I saw Incredible Shrinking Man at the Cremon Orpheum 35 years ago this year and it's all just come back. 360 00:32:17.339 --> 00:32:18.480 Thank you, Brendan. 361 00:32:18.539 --> 00:32:51.420 Um, I was going to note that it, it's really keying into modern quantum theory, Buddhism and cosmology and spirituality, the final line about being swamped by light, um, Mr. Morningstar, if you were indeed the fallen god of light, and then you come back to the light and you become one with the light, is all of those things, and it's right at the apex of all of that thinking, and I love that it was in a 1957 sci-fi film and that it's something are talking about all the time now. 362 00:32:51.480 --> 00:32:52.920 Yeah, it's kind of perfect. 363 00:32:52.980 --> 00:33:00.539 I mean, of course, it's not completely perfect because it's Doctor Who, and we'd have nothing to say if it was, and we don't want it to be, and that's the point. 364 00:33:00.599 --> 00:33:11.759 Yeah, I really hope this is getting the attention it deserves because the whole team seemed to really be pulling it together, even when we weren't so sure last year. 365 00:33:11.880 --> 00:33:14.700 I'm really feeling a confidence in the mix this time. 366 00:33:14.819 --> 00:33:25.380 Yeah, you know, Richard, not perfect in many ways, I think, but also trying for something and having some interesting ideas and actually toying with the format a little bit. 367 00:33:25.440 --> 00:33:32.640 I think this is, as we said earlier, maybe the most broadly successful episode of GT Zero so far. 368 00:33:32.700 --> 00:33:33.480 Yeah. 369 00:33:33.539 --> 00:33:36.059 So that's all the time we've got for now. 370 00:33:36.059 --> 00:33:38.400 We have one or 2 things to plug. 371 00:33:38.460 --> 00:33:39.480 Well, just one thing, really. 372 00:33:39.539 --> 00:33:47.099 This Sunday, 500-year diary, season two, the 2nd coming, will start with our episode on the Dalek invasion of Earth. 373 00:33:47.160 --> 00:33:49.319 If you are wondering what on earth all that was about. 374 00:33:51.960 --> 00:33:59.099 And you can catch up with 500-year diary at 500-year diary.com. 375 00:33:59.160 --> 00:34:05.220 And of course, if you are already subscribed, it will come directly to your podcatcher of choice. 376 00:34:05.519 --> 00:34:09.239 Brandon, is there anything else that we need to mention, do you think? 377 00:34:09.539 --> 00:34:14.940 No, but I think we will have a new three-handed game next week. 378 00:34:15.000 --> 00:34:19.980 So, and I will reveal what that is next Monday because I can't quite remember. 379 00:34:20.039 --> 00:34:20.820 I think it's Emily. 380 00:34:20.880 --> 00:34:21.420 It's Emily. 381 00:34:21.480 --> 00:34:22.019 It's Emily. 382 00:34:22.079 --> 00:34:24.659 It's the very last episode ever filmed. 383 00:34:24.719 --> 00:34:25.619 That's right. 384 00:34:25.679 --> 00:34:27.059 The very last episode of the New Avengers. 385 00:34:27.119 --> 00:34:32.340 And it's got Joanna Lumley clinging to a car in a car wash. 386 00:34:32.400 --> 00:34:33.780 So it's just worth watching for that. 387 00:34:33.840 --> 00:34:35.639 Clinging to a car wash in Canada. 388 00:34:35.699 --> 00:34:44.280 And of course, we have an episode of Untitled Star Trek Project, in all likelihood, coming through on Friday. 389 00:34:44.280 --> 00:34:56.699 All right, so all that remains is for me to say, until next time, if you're out there, Lizzy Abel, Hassan Chaudhary and Robin Gossage, thank you very much for listening and good night. 390 00:34:56.760 --> 00:34:57.900 Good night. 391 00:34:57.960 --> 00:34:58.920 Good night. 392 00:34:58.980 --> 00:34:59.820 See you soon. 393 00:34:59.880 --> 00:35:00.900 And good then.