WEBVTT NOTE This transcript was created on 2026-06-07 at 11:53:50 1 00:00:00.000 --> 00:00:16.199 Hello, dear listener, and welcome back to the 2nd great and bountiful human Empire, the only Doctor Who flash cast that won't be ending this episode by inadvertently creating a major world religion with all the concomitant problems that that inevitably entails. 2 00:00:16.260 --> 00:00:17.940 I'm Nathan. 3 00:00:18.059 --> 00:00:19.320 I'm Brendan. 4 00:00:19.379 --> 00:00:20.640 I'm Todd. 5 00:00:20.699 --> 00:00:22.019 And I'm Simon. 6 00:00:22.140 --> 00:00:39.780 So it's mere days after the broadcast of Doctor Who's 2024 Christmas Special Joy to the World by Stephen Moffatt and directed by Alex Pilli, and we are here to deliver our lukewarm takes on the episode. 7 00:00:39.960 --> 00:00:50.700 So I want to start by just asking the panel how they felt about the episode generally, and let's start with Brendan. 8 00:00:50.820 --> 00:00:53.939 Uh, generally, I enjoyed it. 9 00:00:54.000 --> 00:01:00.600 I had a bit of a weird feeling at the end and I thought, I want to watch this again. and I enjoyed it even more the 2nd time, so that's my general impression. 10 00:01:00.659 --> 00:01:02.039 Okay, Todd. 11 00:01:02.340 --> 00:01:03.960 Ditto. 12 00:01:04.019 --> 00:01:07.079 Hmm, I have to say that I'm fairly much the same. 13 00:01:07.200 --> 00:01:09.120 I still have reservations about the end. 14 00:01:09.239 --> 00:01:11.099 I wonder if it isn't too overwrought. 15 00:01:11.159 --> 00:01:14.219 We'll definitely get there, but otherwise I had a pretty fun time. 16 00:01:14.280 --> 00:01:15.060 Simon. 17 00:01:15.239 --> 00:01:17.760 I didn't have a very fun time. 18 00:01:17.819 --> 00:01:28.140 I'm sorry to say, I think that there's lots of really interesting and great ideas and things and funny lines and that, but I kind of was never engaged by it. 19 00:01:28.200 --> 00:01:38.099 It just sort of was stuff happening and and more stuff happening and as I said, there were things which I think were really interesting, but for some reason I wasn't interested by them. 20 00:01:38.219 --> 00:01:42.719 So I'm, I'm kind of less than lukewarm on it, I'm afraid. 21 00:01:42.780 --> 00:01:45.299 It is a bit of a funny one, isn't it? 22 00:01:45.359 --> 00:01:48.180 Because it doesn't really read like a Doctor Who story. 23 00:01:48.239 --> 00:01:53.700 It is more like like a short story by a Stephen Moffat in an annual or something like that. 24 00:01:53.760 --> 00:02:08.039 And he's taken that approach before, I think, and maybe it works at Christmas, but certainly I felt myself wondering whether I'd actually seen the last Doctor Who episode that involved men in rubber suits invading the home counties, and I think perhaps I have. 25 00:02:09.719 --> 00:02:16.919 Well, let's talk about some of those ideas that interested but also failed to interest Simon. 26 00:02:16.979 --> 00:02:26.099 And in particular, I want to talk about the time hotel and the various other sort of bits of moffetry that were happening, and perhaps Simon, you might want to start. 27 00:02:26.159 --> 00:02:31.020 There's lots of great Moffatry in at the Time Hotel was a fantastic idea. 28 00:02:31.080 --> 00:02:42.300 The fact that, you know, he has to feed himself the code to the suitcase, the briefcase after spending a year in that in the other hotel with that woman is an interesting idea and a great idea. 29 00:02:42.360 --> 00:02:53.039 I think the fact that you integrate different time zones by having, you know, Edmund Hillary's rope being, you know, thrown off the back of the Orange Express in order to pull the thing open in, you know, ancient Samaria, wherever the hell it is. 30 00:02:53.099 --> 00:02:54.599 That's all a great idea. 31 00:02:54.659 --> 00:03:08.219 But for whatever reason, I just never cared about what was going on in the way that I really did care, in other mofferty type things, most particularly the Christmas carol, I think it's almost like he was wanting to, he knows. 32 00:03:08.280 --> 00:03:09.419 I mean, he's connected with Phantom. 33 00:03:09.479 --> 00:03:12.780 He knows what fans have loved about his stuff. 34 00:03:12.780 --> 00:03:16.020 And it's almost like he's decided to do all of that stuff. 35 00:03:16.199 --> 00:03:20.460 And yet, it hasn't quite glued together right. 36 00:03:20.520 --> 00:03:22.319 And so you're not really left with an episode. 37 00:03:22.379 --> 00:03:25.979 I mean, it's interesting to anything that you mentioned, it's like a short story that he's written for an annual. 38 00:03:26.039 --> 00:03:36.120 I'd actually almost argued that it's like several short stories that he's written for an annual that have kind of been schmooshed together that slightly overlap a bit on the assumption that it's all going to be terribly clever. 39 00:03:36.180 --> 00:03:41.280 And at the end of the day, it's all just not as interesting as it should be. 40 00:03:41.340 --> 00:03:42.900 And I think it should be interesting. 41 00:03:42.960 --> 00:03:44.520 So I can't pinpoint. 42 00:03:44.580 --> 00:03:45.960 I been thinking about it since watching it. 43 00:03:46.020 --> 00:03:54.300 I can't pinpoint where the failure point is, like what, where in the, in the process has it all kind of slightly fallen to bits. 44 00:03:54.360 --> 00:03:55.259 And I don't know the answer. 45 00:03:55.740 --> 00:04:00.659 What do you think about the Time Hotel and all those tropes, Todd? 46 00:04:01.319 --> 00:04:16.560 I loved the Time Hotel, but I, as much as I loved it, I did see all the tropes, you know, from the beginning where you got all the different time zones to the whole feeding himself the code to everybody lives at the end. 47 00:04:16.620 --> 00:04:19.079 So I can see all the cogs turning, you know? 48 00:04:19.139 --> 00:04:22.680 But it didn't upset me like it normally does for some reason. 49 00:04:22.740 --> 00:04:25.079 I just, I just went with it. 50 00:04:25.139 --> 00:04:36.600 And what I really loved was the fact that we stuck with Anita in that time zone, whereas normally I would feel like we'd go with joy into, you know, quickly get out of jail free card and just forget about all that. 51 00:04:36.660 --> 00:04:42.060 So I actually really loved going and staying in the one place where he didn't go and have adventures, he just was. 52 00:04:42.180 --> 00:04:44.579 Let's talk about that in a minute. 53 00:04:44.639 --> 00:04:49.980 I do want to talk about that next, but let's stay with the time hotel for a little while. 54 00:04:50.459 --> 00:04:53.279 What did you think, Brendan? 55 00:04:53.339 --> 00:04:56.339 I thought it was super well realised. 56 00:04:56.399 --> 00:05:08.819 Something I haven't seen discussed much online, and I only picked up on it on the 2nd viewing, is that when the doctor is stalking the hotel manager, he passes a door, which is clearly Bilbo and Frodo's door from Hobberton. 57 00:05:08.879 --> 00:05:11.100 If you go back and look at that. 58 00:05:11.160 --> 00:05:13.920 But the thing is, there's a real world explanation for that. 59 00:05:13.920 --> 00:05:19.379 You can say that it is the set that's still there in New Zealand where you can go and visit. 60 00:05:20.579 --> 00:05:31.620 But I also loved how, yes, it's playing with Moffat's usual ideas, but things like when the doctor breaks the link, it creates a brick wall, just like we saw in Girl in the Fireplace. 61 00:05:31.680 --> 00:05:32.220 Yeah. 62 00:05:32.220 --> 00:05:42.240 And I believe that ship was from the 42nd century and we are in the 43rd century, the beginning of the 43rd century because we've just flipped the date around. 63 00:05:42.300 --> 00:05:46.500 Yeah, yeah. 2024 to 4202. 64 00:05:46.620 --> 00:05:50.699 I feel like this is a Christmas variety box of chocolates. 65 00:05:51.480 --> 00:06:06.600 But also, you know, Moffatt is taking some ideas he's done before, like, you know, the doctor dropping in to see Amy and Rory for Christmas dinner at the end of Doctor the Widow in the wardrobe, but instead he's going, okay, but we never actually saw him sitting down for dinner with them that night. 66 00:06:06.660 --> 00:06:10.019 So he's going to do that with the Anita plot line. 67 00:06:10.079 --> 00:06:14.399 And the Anita plotline is beautiful. absolutely beautiful. 68 00:06:14.459 --> 00:06:17.160 But the time hotel itself... 69 00:06:17.339 --> 00:06:26.939 If we look back, say something like Orphan 55 that really feels like we've gone to a building in a place that exists in our world and dressed it up a bit. 70 00:06:27.060 --> 00:06:30.120 And it, look, Orphan 55 looks great. 71 00:06:30.180 --> 00:06:31.740 I'll leave it at that. 72 00:06:31.800 --> 00:06:40.740 But this, I found myself watching this going, I don't think this can be a real building they've adjusted, but it feels like a real place. 73 00:06:40.800 --> 00:06:43.079 And I think from a design point of view, that's great. 74 00:06:43.139 --> 00:06:47.819 I was imagining those same scenes being shot in the temple of peace as usual. 75 00:06:47.939 --> 00:06:51.060 I was kind of delighted that they weren't. 76 00:06:51.240 --> 00:07:04.319 I was just going to say that the Christmas box of chocolates thing is a great analogy, actually, but for me, it's a Christmas box of chocolates where the expiry date has happened on many of the chocolates and someone's lost the catalogue. 77 00:07:04.379 --> 00:07:10.620 So you're not quite sure which chocolate is which, and you're always a bit disappointed when you actually open the chocolate because the wrappings have all been mixed up. 78 00:07:10.680 --> 00:07:22.199 So one of the things, like one of the things, despite the familiarity of a lot of these tropes, it did strike me that Moffat manages to do some new things with them. 79 00:07:22.259 --> 00:07:36.060 One trope that we didn't mention is that what looks like us starting the story in the middle with the doctor doing the room service thing is actually in chronological order, those are the earliest things to happen in the story. 80 00:07:36.120 --> 00:07:46.800 And so that happened before the opening credits, the idea of the door in the hotel that's always locked and giving an explanation for that is classic Moffat. 81 00:07:46.860 --> 00:07:59.399 And then let's lead into the discussion about Anita with the chairs remark, which I just think, you know, this man has now written 9 Doctor Who Christmas specials. 82 00:07:59.459 --> 00:08:07.920 He's written more Doctor Who than anyone else in history, and he still manages to find a new thing to say about the doctor. 83 00:08:07.980 --> 00:08:19.500 So the doctor saying, you know, you live in a big spaceship with no chairs and no one mentions that to you because no one ever comes round to visit. that's why you're so lonely. 84 00:08:19.560 --> 00:08:28.740 Like, we've we've nearly been there, you know, the big TARDIS console room was so large back in the RTD era to emphasise how lonely the doctor was. 85 00:08:28.800 --> 00:08:39.600 He's managed to find a new thing to say about the doctor's character in a new way, and then to address that with that year with Anita, which I think is easily the best thing in the episode. 86 00:08:39.840 --> 00:08:41.759 You think that, do you? 87 00:08:41.820 --> 00:08:42.960 Yeah. 88 00:08:43.019 --> 00:08:44.220 Yeah, I really do. 89 00:08:44.279 --> 00:08:46.860 Yeah, I wanted it to be. 90 00:08:46.919 --> 00:09:00.059 I knew what they were trying to do and it just doesn't have, it was all kind of like, yes, now we have like kind of the Easter scene and we have the summer scene and we have the Halloween scene and it kind of to mark all of the passing of the year. 91 00:09:00.120 --> 00:09:10.980 And I was, as I was watching it, I was thinking, they're going to want me to be upset at the end of this where he says when he says goodbye to her so he can go to the other hotel and find his way back to the time hotel. 92 00:09:11.039 --> 00:09:15.059 And I just wasn't like, like, it just didn't, it just didn't work. 93 00:09:15.120 --> 00:09:20.220 It didn't, it didn't make that leap from stuff happening to, I care about what's happening. 94 00:09:20.279 --> 00:09:22.620 And I don't exactly know what it is. 95 00:09:22.679 --> 00:09:38.279 I mean, all these things have been played with, he's played with before and things like girl in the fireplaces, he've been saying, but there's, there's a much greater sense in that episode of, of, you're just so much more involved in, in, in, in, in the person and and I just don't, I didn't really care about Anita. 96 00:09:38.340 --> 00:09:41.399 I didn't care about why he was there and collecting TARDIS. 97 00:09:41.460 --> 00:09:41.940 Do you know what I mean? 98 00:09:42.000 --> 00:09:44.279 Like it's, it just was all stuff happening. 99 00:09:44.340 --> 00:09:48.960 I think that it did work on me and I'm probably not the only person here. 100 00:09:49.019 --> 00:09:56.700 I did think that that properly worked and I did think him sneaking out and that moment where he says goodbye to is sort of properly good. 101 00:09:56.759 --> 00:10:08.340 And I think one of the things about it is just the difference with this doctor and sort of previous iterations of this, you know, he's not bored, he's not desperate for adventures. 102 00:10:08.399 --> 00:10:11.820 He's just doing a very, very ordinary thing. 103 00:10:11.820 --> 00:10:15.240 And it was nice, I think, seeing the doctor do that. 104 00:10:15.899 --> 00:10:18.299 It worked for me. 105 00:10:18.360 --> 00:10:20.340 I could say I can see where Simon's coming from. 106 00:10:20.399 --> 00:10:46.500 Like, you do feel that it's a bit, at times, I did think it was a bit forced, but I bought into it, and I liked the fact that he wasn't going out and having big adventures, it was just with this, with Anita, and reflecting on his life, and he didn't need to do what he's, you know, he stayed in places before, like, you know, with river or with the perch we era, but he still met aliens and done all that, and that wasn't here, and, and I just enjoyed it because it was, I just felt it was a bit different from that. 107 00:10:46.559 --> 00:10:52.919 And I did by the ending and she said when he was leaving that present, you know. 108 00:10:52.980 --> 00:10:56.820 Also, I mean, perhaps it's the way shooty plays things. 109 00:10:56.879 --> 00:11:01.080 I think he's very intense and at times he's very... 110 00:11:01.620 --> 00:11:03.059 I mean, he's very assured of what he's doing. 111 00:11:03.120 --> 00:11:06.720 And in the moment, he can either be full on or he's not. 112 00:11:06.779 --> 00:11:13.200 I think that's one of the things I found in the episode that he's either full on or he's not the in-betweens. 113 00:11:13.259 --> 00:11:20.100 Perhaps weren't quite there and that sort of took me out of things at times, but I totally bought the Anita thing and I really loved it. 114 00:11:20.159 --> 00:11:21.000 Yeah. 115 00:11:21.000 --> 00:11:22.919 I really loved it as well. 116 00:11:22.980 --> 00:11:43.620 But if I, if I could posit a theory, Simon, I think something Stephen Moffatt does in his writing is he'll, he'll have a character say something and the character says, everyone does this and one of the best examples I can think of because it didn't quite jibe with me is no one says save, do you say, safe in silence in the library. 117 00:11:43.679 --> 00:11:45.419 And now that kind of thing. 118 00:11:45.480 --> 00:11:46.679 It's one line in the episode. 119 00:11:46.740 --> 00:11:48.539 So I can go, that's a bit of a stretch. 120 00:11:48.600 --> 00:12:01.980 But yeah, then when you have a 15 minute scene and if the central concept of that scene from the start, doesn't really land for you, I can totally see how you get to the end of that and go, you know, that was just stuff happening competently. 121 00:12:02.039 --> 00:12:08.460 And I think that is a thing with Stephen Moffat's writing because loads of people love series 6 and I don't. 122 00:12:08.519 --> 00:12:10.799 Loads of people love series 7 and I don't. 123 00:12:10.860 --> 00:12:19.559 There, you know, there are people who are like, um, Capaldi's character should never have softened where I'm, whereas I'm like, hurry up and get to series 10. you know? 124 00:12:19.620 --> 00:12:26.580 And I, I think that, that's the thing with, with Stephen Moffatt is that he's like, this is what I'm writing. 125 00:12:26.639 --> 00:12:32.220 If you're not on board, come along next week, kind of thing, which can be a bit of a problem in a Christmas special. 126 00:12:32.279 --> 00:12:43.379 And I also think that's why Dr. Widow and the Wardrobe, which I love, isn't highly regarded in general because I think a lot of people just aren't on board with the concept set up from the start. 127 00:12:43.379 --> 00:12:45.960 And I don't, I'm not saying that in a pejorative sense. 128 00:12:46.019 --> 00:12:53.220 I think Stephen Robert's just the kind of person where if you're not on board with the concept from the beginning, it's going to be very hard for it to be satisfying. 129 00:12:53.279 --> 00:12:55.320 No, I can agree with that. 130 00:12:55.379 --> 00:13:00.659 I mean, doctor, it's interesting that you say you like the doctor, the widow, and the wardrobe, because that's probably my least favourite Christmas special. 131 00:13:00.779 --> 00:13:05.639 So it makes sense then that I'm not sort of a fan of this one. 132 00:13:05.700 --> 00:13:09.480 I guess it comes back to that thing of what sort of Todd suggested or someone suggested about seeing the workings. 133 00:13:09.539 --> 00:13:17.580 Like, I can kind of see, it's like, it's like doing Dr. Christmas special coloured by my numbers and that's, that's kind of all it is. 134 00:13:17.639 --> 00:13:31.980 One of the things about that bit, though, is that it does take about 10 minutes, and originally, I think, um, uh, it was going to be a more expensive scene where the doctor travelled around the world and stuff, but they said, no, let's just stay in the hotel with Anita. 135 00:13:32.039 --> 00:13:38.399 But what it does do is it moves Nicola Cochlan's guest character sort of off stage for that period of time. 136 00:13:38.460 --> 00:13:42.419 How did people respond to the character of joy? 137 00:13:42.659 --> 00:13:44.700 I really liked her. 138 00:13:44.759 --> 00:13:52.679 I've been aware of Nicola Cochlan's name for a long time and I know that she's in Derry Girls and I know that she's in Bridgerton and big in those. 139 00:13:52.740 --> 00:13:53.820 I haven't seen either of those. 140 00:13:53.879 --> 00:14:01.559 So I kind of came in thinking, I don't know what her performance is going to be like, but I know that she's incredibly popular and obviously very talented. 141 00:14:01.679 --> 00:14:04.860 And I adored her. 142 00:14:04.919 --> 00:14:16.799 I adored her in all the modes, the hypnotised mode, the forced jollity mode, the absolute white hot fury, and where her character goes at the end as well. 143 00:14:16.860 --> 00:14:20.220 Absolute tour de force. 144 00:14:20.279 --> 00:14:25.860 And it's like the same thing as Catherine Tatan, the runaway bride, but totally different. 145 00:14:25.919 --> 00:14:32.039 Like she's not a slapstick character who then has to come back and go, I'm going to do the weekly version of this now. 146 00:14:32.100 --> 00:14:37.320 It's a subtle and nuanced performance, but just barnstorming the way that Catherine was. 147 00:14:37.379 --> 00:14:39.179 What did you think, Tom? 148 00:14:39.840 --> 00:14:41.700 I liked her. 149 00:14:41.759 --> 00:14:44.279 And I can see where Brendan's coming from. 150 00:14:44.340 --> 00:14:46.559 She had a lot to do and she did it very competently. 151 00:14:46.620 --> 00:14:52.259 At times, I felt, and maybe that was with the scenes with Rashudy, that everything was very quick. 152 00:14:52.320 --> 00:14:58.620 You know, by taking 10 minutes away from that character, you suddenly had to go from A to B to Z very, very quickly. 153 00:14:58.679 --> 00:15:01.860 So I perhaps struggled a bit with that, but I thought she did a good job. 154 00:15:01.919 --> 00:15:08.220 I just think the character wasn't perhaps as defined as I needed it to be at times, is my one criticism there. 155 00:15:08.279 --> 00:15:10.259 But what she did I thought she did well. 156 00:15:10.320 --> 00:15:12.360 I'd agree with Todd. 157 00:15:12.419 --> 00:15:20.279 I think that I think she was perfectly good, but I don't think that what's going on is too much of a mishmash for me to I sort of wanted to see more. 158 00:15:20.340 --> 00:15:22.860 I wanted to see what else was happening with that character. 159 00:15:22.919 --> 00:15:26.159 She was there for a plot point rather than anything else, I think. 160 00:15:26.220 --> 00:15:33.480 I mean, part of the problem, I think, is that a lot of her character stuff is just delivered in that speech by Shooty, where he describes her. 161 00:15:33.539 --> 00:15:36.419 And you kind of go, oh, yeah, she is really like that. 162 00:15:36.480 --> 00:15:42.899 That's what the performance is, but we are kind of told, really, more than we get the opportunity to see it. 163 00:15:42.960 --> 00:15:55.320 And because when she's introduced and she's supposed to be this sort of terrible, sad, sack, you know, the hotel room isn't quite dingy and awful enough, you know, because we're making a lovely hotel room. 164 00:15:55.379 --> 00:15:56.399 It's sort of ordinary. 165 00:15:56.460 --> 00:15:56.820 Yeah, yeah. 166 00:15:56.879 --> 00:15:57.419 Yeah, yeah, yeah. 167 00:15:57.480 --> 00:15:59.820 I've stayed in much worse places, Willy. 168 00:15:59.879 --> 00:16:01.080 Exactly. 169 00:16:01.080 --> 00:16:17.220 And because there's so much business going on in that scene where she's introduced, and you know, there's a lizard man and there's Anita and Anita's reaction is funny and there's the Zectron 2000 high security briefcase and all of that sort of thing are all there. 170 00:16:17.340 --> 00:16:20.580 And she's possessed for sort of quite a lot of it. 171 00:16:20.700 --> 00:16:24.299 So it is hard to kind of read her, but it is a great performance. 172 00:16:24.539 --> 00:16:30.480 I guess the thing is, there was deadly danger at the beginning with the briefcase and everybody's dying, right? 173 00:16:30.539 --> 00:16:31.860 And I really love that. 174 00:16:31.919 --> 00:16:37.019 And then it went to her and I went, well, very early on and I thought, well, she's not going to die. 175 00:16:37.139 --> 00:16:38.519 So how are they going to get out of this? 176 00:16:38.580 --> 00:16:39.899 And he's going to have to do certain things. 177 00:16:39.960 --> 00:16:42.600 And I started going, well, he's going to make her angry. 178 00:16:42.659 --> 00:16:46.379 And so I started to sort of predict what he was going to do, like that whole sequence. 179 00:16:46.440 --> 00:16:52.679 So that sort of took me out of that bit a bit if there's, if that's a bit of a criticism that I can throw at it. 180 00:16:52.740 --> 00:16:53.399 But that's what I found. 181 00:16:54.600 --> 00:16:58.620 One thing that has been slightly controversial is the COVID thing. 182 00:16:58.679 --> 00:17:28.500 Um, and I have to say that that was something that I thought perhaps needed to be done, that all of that stuff happened 4 years ago now, but at Christmas, Britain is full of families who said goodbye to their mother or grandmother or grandfather on an iPad and making that real and acknowledging it and having the doctor angry about it. 183 00:17:28.559 --> 00:17:34.259 I think was, well, I personally found it cathartic. 184 00:17:34.319 --> 00:17:46.079 Um, and I think probably, um, it's the sort of engagement with the real world that you're a bit tentative about, I think, Simon, but that I'm really here for, I think. 185 00:17:47.519 --> 00:17:51.539 I can be tentative about it, depending on what the subject matter is. 186 00:17:51.599 --> 00:17:57.960 I think allegory is much a much better way of telling it, but I have only watched this once, I confess. 187 00:17:58.019 --> 00:18:19.920 And my recollection of that whole thing is less about the injustice of the fact that the rules were put in place in such a way that people weren't able to, in Australia, for instance, cross state boundaries to be able to, to see loved ones dying or otherwise, that in, you know, and in hospital, there are all these restrictions as well. 188 00:18:19.980 --> 00:18:27.779 I didn't read anything in that about the fact that that was probably a bad idea and a little bit excessive. 189 00:18:27.839 --> 00:18:30.119 It was just purely for me. 190 00:18:30.180 --> 00:18:38.400 All I saw them about was like the people in charge, you know, taking the piss and having party gates and all that sort of stuff, which is obviously party gates a very big deal in Britain. 191 00:18:38.460 --> 00:18:41.819 You know, we cannot overstate how big a deal party gate is for the British. 192 00:18:41.880 --> 00:18:50.700 Having said that, I don't think it was saying what I think you were wanting it to say, which is that the doctor was outraged about the fact that people weren't able to connect with each other in these moments. 193 00:18:50.759 --> 00:18:51.599 Don't you think? 194 00:18:51.660 --> 00:18:53.819 Well, no, I'm not sure that he did say that. 195 00:18:53.880 --> 00:19:04.380 I do think that, and certainly it has been read that way, and there are a lot of people out there who are sort of a bit cross that the doctor appears to be anti-lockdown at that point. 196 00:19:04.440 --> 00:19:22.859 Um, you know, uh, but I think it was the issue where politics and things where, where rules were made for people and people obediently did the right thing and the people who made those rules didn't do that. 197 00:19:23.400 --> 00:19:24.839 Oh, yeah. 198 00:19:24.900 --> 00:19:25.980 I think that's what I'm saying. 199 00:19:26.039 --> 00:19:41.700 I think that's what they were So talking about, rather than I think, the point that is more relevant, which is the fact that everyone went a little bit overboard with what was the requirements at the time, especially because especially in somewhere like Britain, where you had cases everywhere anyway, it all was kind of a bit stupid, frankly. 200 00:19:41.819 --> 00:19:53.940 I think it's probably impossible to, you know, it was impossible for anyone to really properly know and people were lying blind and having difficulty calibrating what to do and stuff like that and maybe in retrospect. 201 00:19:54.000 --> 00:19:55.920 People went overboard. 202 00:19:55.980 --> 00:20:04.559 Maybe they didn't, you know, about 180,000 people died during the pandemic of COVID in Great Britain. 203 00:20:04.619 --> 00:20:06.480 So it was a sort of big deal. 204 00:20:06.539 --> 00:20:09.720 And so I don't think that that was what was being litigated there. 205 00:20:09.779 --> 00:20:21.240 But I do think that what it was, was the anger around what people had to suffer and that the people who were making the rules weren't participating in that. 206 00:20:21.299 --> 00:20:22.440 In quite the same way. 207 00:20:22.500 --> 00:20:23.279 Yeah, yeah, exactly. 208 00:20:23.339 --> 00:20:25.319 I mean, that's a tale as old as time, you know. 209 00:20:25.859 --> 00:20:27.180 Worth getting angry about. 210 00:20:27.960 --> 00:20:35.099 Something I think it brings up is that Stephen Moffatt, it's kind of weird, right? 211 00:20:35.160 --> 00:20:44.640 We look at Moffatt's past Doctor Who, and it seems to take place in a more fantastical world reality divorced from our own than Russell's does. 212 00:20:44.700 --> 00:20:51.240 But at the same time, Russell creates analogues for political leaders, right? 213 00:20:51.299 --> 00:20:59.579 He does he does kill Tony Blair and makes direct reference to Iraq in the 1st series, but after that, we have Harriet Jones and then we have Harold Saxon. 214 00:20:59.579 --> 00:21:03.000 And then we have Arthur Coleman Winters. you know, we don't have George W. 215 00:21:03.000 --> 00:21:03.480 Bush. 216 00:21:03.599 --> 00:21:10.259 Then Stephen Moffatt comes along and we get direct references to Donald Trump. 217 00:21:10.440 --> 00:21:18.599 You know, we get direct references to real political figures and real political scandals in the Moffat era. 218 00:21:18.599 --> 00:21:25.200 And I found myself thinking, you know, Where does Chris Gibnall fall on this? 219 00:21:25.259 --> 00:21:28.079 And of course, Chris Gibnall doesn't reference the real world very much. 220 00:21:28.440 --> 00:21:43.740 And for once, I actually think Chris Chibnall not telling a story that directly references lockdown was a good thing, because I think at the time, people didn't want stories about lockdown. 221 00:21:43.740 --> 00:21:46.259 And I remember... 222 00:21:46.319 --> 00:21:46.680 Yeah. 223 00:21:46.740 --> 00:21:57.839 I remember reading a tweet at the time of someone saying, in 5 or 6 years, we're going to have lots of stories about 2020, but we are not ready for them right now and right now we need something more fantastical. 224 00:21:57.900 --> 00:22:01.200 So when that came up in the episode. 225 00:22:01.259 --> 00:22:05.940 And I did have the moment of the doctor saying, hold on, is the doctor anti, what is the doctor anti-lockdown? 226 00:22:06.000 --> 00:22:07.200 That's part of the reason I watched it again. 227 00:22:07.259 --> 00:22:16.440 It's like, no, he's making her angry and he's making her angry in the most unfair way possible in order to save her life and he even apologises for it twice. 228 00:22:16.500 --> 00:22:20.700 You know, it's rule one, the doctor lies. 229 00:22:20.759 --> 00:22:24.420 Not everything the doctor says is him saying this is my view of the universe. 230 00:22:24.720 --> 00:22:32.940 But yeah, I think it is an important moment. in Joe. Yeah, I think I think you're right. 231 00:22:33.000 --> 00:22:40.980 I mean, it's interesting and I think, because Nathan, you had a little social media spray yesterday, I think, about this, which was the fact that it's almost like we've all forgotten about the fact that this happened. 232 00:22:41.039 --> 00:22:42.900 And we have, oddly enough. 233 00:22:42.960 --> 00:22:58.799 I don't know whether we'll ever be quite ready for a lockdown thing because it's kind of like, well, it's all a bit tedious or not a little bit tedious, but there were various personal tragedies, but it's almost like everyone sort of remembers their own personal tragedies relating to it, but then at the same time, it's kind of all been forgotten. 234 00:22:58.859 --> 00:23:03.000 And I don't think it's about what I was talking about, well, like the lockdown thing. 235 00:23:03.059 --> 00:23:04.799 I wasn't trying to suggest that they shouldn't have been any. 236 00:23:04.859 --> 00:23:12.960 I'm just trying to suggest that there was this kind of influ- this, this, this, which we certainly experience in Australia, this bizarre inflexibility about it. 237 00:23:12.960 --> 00:23:14.640 And I think that's a thing. 238 00:23:14.700 --> 00:23:32.339 And I think that would have been doing it as kind of just a fragment of an episode is kind of a bit like you're wasting a story there because there's a whole story about how, you know, this kind of thing happens and the way there's this kind of group think in the community, along with the virtue signal, goes with it about who's doing this and who's doing that. 239 00:23:32.400 --> 00:23:37.440 And there's a whole thing there and it has just kind of been frittered away in a moment. don't know. 240 00:23:37.500 --> 00:23:40.019 I just feel that it was good to address it. 241 00:23:40.079 --> 00:23:46.619 And they did it in a way that everybody has their own personal take and you will, and it makes you think about that time and reflect. 242 00:23:46.619 --> 00:23:53.099 And I didn't want it to be too deep per se, and I just thought that it was, it was good to have it referenced. 243 00:23:53.460 --> 00:23:55.440 Mm, I agree. 244 00:23:55.500 --> 00:24:00.059 All right, let's talk about the ending. 245 00:24:00.119 --> 00:24:04.380 So someone, someone on social media, and I think it was a big Finnish writer. 246 00:24:04.440 --> 00:24:14.039 I can't remember who exactly, said that the moment that there was a star growing in the briefcase, he knew that it was going to be the star of Bethlehem by the end of the episode. 247 00:24:14.099 --> 00:24:17.579 I believe that was a friend of the podcast, James Curray Smith. 248 00:24:18.059 --> 00:24:19.559 There we go. 249 00:24:19.980 --> 00:24:21.839 Oh I didn't. 250 00:24:21.900 --> 00:24:23.220 I didn't see that coming. 251 00:24:23.339 --> 00:24:24.359 No, I didn't either. 252 00:24:24.660 --> 00:24:31.740 As soon as they were standing on a cliff top with the night sky in the background, I had that tenant moment of no. 253 00:24:31.799 --> 00:24:34.920 No, no, no, no, no. 254 00:24:34.980 --> 00:24:35.819 Oh, camels. 255 00:24:35.880 --> 00:24:36.299 Yeah. 256 00:24:39.900 --> 00:24:42.359 What did you think, Todd? 257 00:24:42.420 --> 00:24:44.460 I was fine with it, you know? 258 00:24:44.519 --> 00:24:49.799 She said she was going to look after the star and it certainly then thought it. 259 00:24:49.920 --> 00:24:56.519 Or fell into villain guard's plans, you know, to be the religion and or whatever of the future. 260 00:24:56.579 --> 00:24:58.740 You know, they, they've created their own history. 261 00:24:58.799 --> 00:25:00.720 And I was fine with it actually. 262 00:25:00.779 --> 00:25:10.140 I just, I just, I just bought a little wiry smile to my face going, some people are going to be so outraged by this, but it's not going to be me this time. 263 00:25:13.500 --> 00:25:19.380 I still can't get over Russell killing Tylie at Christmas, you know, like I just love... 264 00:25:19.380 --> 00:25:20.940 That's far more of a sin, sure. 265 00:25:21.240 --> 00:25:22.799 Well, yeah. 266 00:25:22.859 --> 00:25:25.859 But this, like, I just find this hard to read. 267 00:25:25.920 --> 00:25:28.980 Like, I know that she ascends into the sky. 268 00:25:29.039 --> 00:25:32.460 All of those people who are miserable in the opening credits are now happy. 269 00:25:32.519 --> 00:25:34.920 Even Millie Gibson's happy now. 270 00:25:34.980 --> 00:25:38.339 You know, there's sort of happiness and joy everywhere. 271 00:25:38.700 --> 00:25:42.720 But I'm still with the doctor, you know, you're going to burn up. 272 00:25:42.779 --> 00:25:44.579 You're a star. you can burn. 273 00:25:44.640 --> 00:25:49.740 You know, so it was hard for me to read that as the triumph that the episode clearly wanted. 274 00:25:50.279 --> 00:25:51.539 And then the music was suggesting it was. 275 00:25:52.019 --> 00:25:52.980 Yeah, well, exactly. 276 00:25:53.039 --> 00:25:54.180 Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. 277 00:25:54.240 --> 00:25:55.680 And it was clearly meant to be that. 278 00:25:55.740 --> 00:26:07.019 Like, that was meant to be it, but it just, like, someone goes up and becomes a star with a lizard and that nice guy Trev, like, it just seemed very odd to me and perhaps a little bit overwrought. 279 00:26:07.140 --> 00:26:09.359 I can see where you're coming from. 280 00:26:09.420 --> 00:26:10.140 Totally. 281 00:26:10.200 --> 00:26:17.099 I had long past caring by that point, but I certainly don't have any issue with it being with her being the star of Bethlehem. 282 00:26:17.160 --> 00:26:21.119 And, you know, I don't think it needs to say that need not say anything. 283 00:26:21.240 --> 00:26:23.460 It need not be an endorsement of the Christian religion. 284 00:26:23.519 --> 00:26:26.160 It's just, you know, it just is. 285 00:26:26.220 --> 00:26:27.960 And so it's Christmas, for God's sake. 286 00:26:28.019 --> 00:26:29.099 Yeah exactly. 287 00:26:29.220 --> 00:26:31.619 It's not lampooning the Christian religion. 288 00:26:31.680 --> 00:26:38.279 It is presenting an image, a symbol from the faith in an affirming way. 289 00:26:38.339 --> 00:26:39.960 Exactly to that. 290 00:26:40.019 --> 00:26:46.380 Yeah, in terms of the whole ascending into a starving, I kind of read it like the ending of Star Trek, the motion picture. 291 00:26:46.440 --> 00:26:51.000 Part of the point is, you don't know what happens to Decker and Ilia. 292 00:26:51.059 --> 00:27:04.380 We as humans cannot comprehend what becoming a star means, but I will say that we have encountered a sentient star in the new series of Doctor Who before. 293 00:27:04.440 --> 00:27:06.000 So this is a prequel to 42. 294 00:27:06.480 --> 00:27:08.460 Well there you go. 295 00:27:08.519 --> 00:27:09.059 Okay. 296 00:27:09.119 --> 00:27:12.660 Maybe she is the star in 42. been tired of waiting around so long. 297 00:27:14.160 --> 00:27:17.759 I'd also like to raise a point of physics. 298 00:27:17.940 --> 00:27:32.819 If she goes away and if she goes away and becomes a star in the year one, now presumably she is no closer than Alpha Centuri, ergo, the light from that star would not reach Earth until at least the year five. 299 00:27:32.880 --> 00:27:39.180 So has the doctor been standing around on that hilltop waiting to see that star for 5 years at the end of the episode? 300 00:27:39.240 --> 00:27:43.380 Maybe it's like the kitchen at some 30 minutes ahead in time or something. 301 00:27:43.859 --> 00:27:44.579 Now that was a clever idea. 302 00:27:44.640 --> 00:27:45.720 That was a clever idea. 303 00:27:45.779 --> 00:27:47.099 That was, it was going on. 304 00:27:47.160 --> 00:27:58.259 No, I think it's just the fact that it's a mini star that's somewhere around, you know, where the moon orbits for now and she gets, as she gets bigger and brighter, she disappears off into, well, wherever the 42 star is. 305 00:27:58.319 --> 00:27:59.819 You know what? 306 00:27:59.880 --> 00:28:02.279 I'm, I'm, we're going to carry that. 307 00:28:02.339 --> 00:28:04.380 I'm... 308 00:28:05.279 --> 00:28:15.299 I actually think rather than a sort of image from the Christian religion, it's really an image from Christmas cards and so it is kind of more or less thoroughly secular. 309 00:28:15.359 --> 00:28:28.920 And the episode has come down on the side of the universe appearing out of nothing because you remember that the doctor gets the code literally because he heard himself saying it as has happened so often. 310 00:28:28.980 --> 00:28:36.779 And he actually, this time explains, look, yes, it came from nowhere, but so did the universe and no one complains about that. 311 00:28:36.839 --> 00:28:43.559 So, um, you know, so, and, and it is, it's, um, it's foreshadowed a bit, isn't it? 312 00:28:43.619 --> 00:28:48.359 Because the doctor speculates at the time hotel is the reason that there was no room in the inn. 313 00:28:48.480 --> 00:28:49.740 Oh, right. 314 00:28:49.740 --> 00:28:55.500 The inn was full of time hotel tourists. trying to spot the deep Jesus, yes. 315 00:28:55.559 --> 00:28:56.400 Hilarious. 316 00:28:57.839 --> 00:28:59.460 All right. 317 00:28:59.519 --> 00:29:01.079 Well, that's it for now. 318 00:29:01.140 --> 00:29:04.079 We're obviously going to be back for season 2 next year. 319 00:29:04.140 --> 00:29:15.599 And later in the week, I think on Wednesday, we will be releasing our final episode of this leg of Flight through Entirety. 320 00:29:15.660 --> 00:29:17.039 So that's on New Year's Day. 321 00:29:17.099 --> 00:29:19.440 That's our Capoldi Moffat retrospective. 322 00:29:19.500 --> 00:29:24.119 But don't fear, we will still be podcasting about Doctor Who next year. 323 00:29:24.180 --> 00:29:43.799 So make sure that you follow us on Flightthrough Entirety.com on Blue Sky or on FTE podcast on Mastodon, and you'll hear all of the news about the 2nd great and bountiful Human Empire, which you're listening to now, and about 500 year diary, which will start in the 1st half of next year. 324 00:29:43.859 --> 00:29:47.279 Um, Brendan, do you have anything to plug? 325 00:29:47.579 --> 00:30:03.660 Uh, we have just released our special Christmas episode of the three-handed game on the very Christmassy, too many Christmas trees, and you can find that at um, THG podcast on Blue Sky, or for looking for three-handed game on Facebook. 326 00:30:03.839 --> 00:30:14.759 And I want to mention 2 other podcasts, Maximum Power is back with its coverage of series D and tomorrow, if you're listening to this immediately after its release. 327 00:30:14.819 --> 00:30:21.900 Tomorrow, we'll see the release of episode 2 of Series D, which is the beloved Fan Favourite. 328 00:30:21.900 --> 00:30:25.259 Power by Ben Steed. 329 00:30:25.920 --> 00:30:30.240 And of course, Untitled Star Trek Project continues unabated. 330 00:30:30.660 --> 00:30:33.480 Todd, did you want to plug? 331 00:30:33.539 --> 00:30:37.259 Which I've listened to move along home, which is just glorious. 332 00:30:37.319 --> 00:30:39.119 Glorious. 333 00:30:39.180 --> 00:30:41.880 And I just got one other thing to say. 8 out of 10 for me. 334 00:30:41.940 --> 00:30:43.859 Oh, we needed to hear that. 335 00:30:43.920 --> 00:30:45.480 I can't believe that I did not. 336 00:30:45.900 --> 00:30:48.539 For joy to the world or move along home? 337 00:30:48.599 --> 00:30:49.559 Both. 338 00:30:49.619 --> 00:30:50.640 Excellent. 339 00:30:52.079 --> 00:31:01.319 On the scale of the doctor with the widow in the wardrobe up to a Christmas carol, it is too close to the doctor, the widow in the wardrobe for me, I'm afraid. 340 00:31:01.380 --> 00:31:03.420 This is so much better than that. 341 00:31:04.319 --> 00:31:06.660 The next doctor is right there. 342 00:31:06.779 --> 00:31:08.759 I don't know. is right there. 343 00:31:08.819 --> 00:31:10.500 Oh, yes, no, I wasn't sure which one to rank last. 344 00:31:11.640 --> 00:31:13.740 Funnily enough, Simon. 345 00:31:13.799 --> 00:31:17.039 I'd agree with you, but probably not in the direction you're expecting. 346 00:31:18.299 --> 00:31:25.920 All right, so all that remains is for me to say, until next time, New Year's resolution, get some chairs in. 347 00:31:25.980 --> 00:31:28.559 Thank you very much for listening and good night. 348 00:31:28.619 --> 00:31:29.579 Good night. 349 00:31:29.640 --> 00:31:30.839 See you soon. 350 00:31:30.900 --> 00:31:32.099 Night night.