WEBVTT NOTE This transcript was created on 2026-05-02 at 15:29:25 1 00:00:00.000 --> 00:00:03.000 Hello, dear listener, and welcome back to the 2nd great and 2 00:00:03.000 --> 00:00:07.620 bountiful human Empire, the only Doctor Who flash cast that won't 3 00:00:07.620 --> 00:00:11.699 be ending this episode by inadvertently creating a major world 4 00:00:11.699 --> 00:00:15.660 religion with all the concomitant problems that that inevitably 5 00:00:15.660 --> 00:00:16.199 entails. 6 00:00:16.260 --> 00:00:17.940 I'm Nathan. 7 00:00:18.059 --> 00:00:19.320 I'm Brendan. 8 00:00:19.379 --> 00:00:20.640 I'm Todd. 9 00:00:20.699 --> 00:00:22.019 And I'm Simon. 10 00:00:22.140 --> 00:00:28.079 So it's mere days after the broadcast of Doctor Who's 2024 11 00:00:28.079 --> 00:00:32.939 Christmas Special Joy to the World by Stephen Moffatt and directed 12 00:00:32.939 --> 00:00:39.060 by Alex Pilli, and we are here to deliver our lukewarm takes on 13 00:00:39.060 --> 00:00:39.780 the episode. 14 00:00:39.960 --> 00:00:46.439 So I want to start by just asking the panel how they felt about 15 00:00:46.439 --> 00:00:50.700 the episode generally, and let's start with Brendan. 16 00:00:50.820 --> 00:00:53.939 Uh, generally, I enjoyed it. 17 00:00:54.000 --> 00:00:56.700 I had a bit of a weird feeling at the end and I thought, I want to 18 00:00:56.700 --> 00:00:59.640 watch this again. and I enjoyed it even more the 2nd time, so 19 00:00:59.640 --> 00:01:00.600 that's my general impression. 20 00:01:00.659 --> 00:01:02.039 Okay, Todd. 21 00:01:02.340 --> 00:01:03.960 Ditto. 22 00:01:04.019 --> 00:01:07.079 Hmm, I have to say that I'm fairly much the same. 23 00:01:07.200 --> 00:01:09.120 I still have reservations about the end. 24 00:01:09.239 --> 00:01:11.099 I wonder if it isn't too overwrought. 25 00:01:11.159 --> 00:01:13.799 We'll definitely get there, but otherwise I had a pretty fun 26 00:01:13.799 --> 00:01:14.219 time. 27 00:01:14.280 --> 00:01:15.060 Simon. 28 00:01:15.239 --> 00:01:17.760 I didn't have a very fun time. 29 00:01:17.819 --> 00:01:20.879 I'm sorry to say, I think that there's lots of really interesting 30 00:01:20.879 --> 00:01:26.939 and great ideas and things and funny lines and that, but I kind of 31 00:01:26.939 --> 00:01:28.140 was never engaged by it. 32 00:01:28.200 --> 00:01:31.859 It just sort of was stuff happening and and more stuff happening 33 00:01:31.859 --> 00:01:35.519 and as I said, there were things which I think were really 34 00:01:35.519 --> 00:01:38.099 interesting, but for some reason I wasn't interested by them. 35 00:01:38.219 --> 00:01:42.719 So I'm, I'm kind of less than lukewarm on it, I'm afraid. 36 00:01:42.780 --> 00:01:45.299 It is a bit of a funny one, isn't it? 37 00:01:45.359 --> 00:01:48.180 Because it doesn't really read like a Doctor Who story. 38 00:01:48.239 --> 00:01:52.319 It is more like like a short story by a Stephen Moffat in an 39 00:01:52.319 --> 00:01:53.700 annual or something like that. 40 00:01:53.760 --> 00:01:57.359 And he's taken that approach before, I think, and maybe it works 41 00:01:57.359 --> 00:02:01.019 at Christmas, but certainly I felt myself wondering whether I'd 42 00:02:01.019 --> 00:02:04.379 actually seen the last Doctor Who episode that involved men in 43 00:02:04.379 --> 00:02:07.739 rubber suits invading the home counties, and I think perhaps I 44 00:02:07.739 --> 00:02:08.039 have. 45 00:02:09.719 --> 00:02:14.580 Well, let's talk about some of those ideas that interested but 46 00:02:14.580 --> 00:02:16.919 also failed to interest Simon. 47 00:02:16.979 --> 00:02:21.659 And in particular, I want to talk about the time hotel and the 48 00:02:21.659 --> 00:02:24.539 various other sort of bits of moffetry that were happening, and 49 00:02:24.539 --> 00:02:26.099 perhaps Simon, you might want to start. 50 00:02:26.159 --> 00:02:30.300 There's lots of great Moffatry in at the Time Hotel was a 51 00:02:30.300 --> 00:02:31.020 fantastic idea. 52 00:02:31.080 --> 00:02:34.620 The fact that, you know, he has to feed himself the code to the 53 00:02:34.620 --> 00:02:38.580 suitcase, the briefcase after spending a year in that in the other 54 00:02:38.580 --> 00:02:42.300 hotel with that woman is an interesting idea and a great idea. 55 00:02:42.360 --> 00:02:45.659 I think the fact that you integrate different time zones by having 56 00:02:45.659 --> 00:02:48.599 you know, Edmund Hillary's rope being, you know, thrown off the 57 00:02:48.599 --> 00:02:50.939 back of the Orange Express in order to pull the thing open in, you 58 00:02:50.939 --> 00:02:53.039 know, ancient Samaria, wherever the hell it is. 59 00:02:53.099 --> 00:02:54.599 That's all a great idea. 60 00:02:54.659 --> 00:02:58.740 But for whatever reason, I just never cared about what was going 61 00:02:58.740 --> 00:03:03.180 on in the way that I really did care, in other mofferty type 62 00:03:03.180 --> 00:03:06.240 things, most particularly the Christmas carol, I think it's almost 63 00:03:06.240 --> 00:03:08.219 like he was wanting to, he knows. 64 00:03:08.280 --> 00:03:09.419 I mean, he's connected with Phantom. 65 00:03:09.479 --> 00:03:12.780 He knows what fans have loved about his stuff. 66 00:03:12.780 --> 00:03:16.020 And it's almost like he's decided to do all of that stuff. 67 00:03:16.199 --> 00:03:20.460 And yet, it hasn't quite glued together right. 68 00:03:20.520 --> 00:03:22.319 And so you're not really left with an episode. 69 00:03:22.379 --> 00:03:24.240 I mean, it's interesting to anything that you mentioned, it's like 70 00:03:24.240 --> 00:03:25.979 a short story that he's written for an annual. 71 00:03:26.039 --> 00:03:28.439 I'd actually almost argued that it's like several short stories 72 00:03:28.439 --> 00:03:31.860 that he's written for an annual that have kind of been schmooshed 73 00:03:31.860 --> 00:03:35.039 together that slightly overlap a bit on the assumption that it's 74 00:03:35.039 --> 00:03:36.120 all going to be terribly clever. 75 00:03:36.180 --> 00:03:40.740 And at the end of the day, it's all just not as interesting as it 76 00:03:40.740 --> 00:03:41.280 should be. 77 00:03:41.340 --> 00:03:42.900 And I think it should be interesting. 78 00:03:42.960 --> 00:03:44.520 So I can't pinpoint. 79 00:03:44.580 --> 00:03:45.960 I been thinking about it since watching it. 80 00:03:46.020 --> 00:03:50.280 I can't pinpoint where the failure point is, like what, where in 81 00:03:50.280 --> 00:03:54.300 the, in the process has it all kind of slightly fallen to bits. 82 00:03:54.360 --> 00:03:55.259 And I don't know the answer. 83 00:03:55.740 --> 00:04:00.659 What do you think about the Time Hotel and all those tropes, Todd? 84 00:04:01.319 --> 00:04:07.199 I loved the Time Hotel, but I, as much as I loved it, I did see 85 00:04:07.199 --> 00:04:09.900 all the tropes, you know, from the beginning where you got all the 86 00:04:09.900 --> 00:04:15.120 different time zones to the whole feeding himself the code to 87 00:04:15.120 --> 00:04:16.560 everybody lives at the end. 88 00:04:16.620 --> 00:04:19.079 So I can see all the cogs turning, you know? 89 00:04:19.139 --> 00:04:22.680 But it didn't upset me like it normally does for some reason. 90 00:04:22.740 --> 00:04:25.079 I just, I just went with it. 91 00:04:25.139 --> 00:04:28.560 And what I really loved was the fact that we stuck with Anita in 92 00:04:28.560 --> 00:04:31.439 that time zone, whereas normally I would feel like we'd go with 93 00:04:31.439 --> 00:04:35.759 joy into, you know, quickly get out of jail free card and just 94 00:04:35.759 --> 00:04:36.600 forget about all that. 95 00:04:36.660 --> 00:04:39.779 So I actually really loved going and staying in the one place 96 00:04:39.779 --> 00:04:42.060 where he didn't go and have adventures, he just was. 97 00:04:42.180 --> 00:04:44.579 Let's talk about that in a minute. 98 00:04:44.639 --> 00:04:48.480 I do want to talk about that next, but let's stay with the time 99 00:04:48.480 --> 00:04:49.980 hotel for a little while. 100 00:04:50.459 --> 00:04:53.279 What did you think, Brendan? 101 00:04:53.339 --> 00:04:56.339 I thought it was super well realised. 102 00:04:56.399 --> 00:05:00.000 Something I haven't seen discussed much online, and I only picked 103 00:05:00.000 --> 00:05:02.819 up on it on the 2nd viewing, is that when the doctor is stalking 104 00:05:02.819 --> 00:05:07.259 the hotel manager, he passes a door, which is clearly Bilbo and 105 00:05:07.259 --> 00:05:08.819 Frodo's door from Hobberton. 106 00:05:08.879 --> 00:05:11.100 If you go back and look at that. 107 00:05:11.160 --> 00:05:13.920 But the thing is, there's a real world explanation for that. 108 00:05:13.920 --> 00:05:17.939 You can say that it is the set that's still there in New Zealand 109 00:05:17.939 --> 00:05:19.379 where you can go and visit. 110 00:05:20.579 --> 00:05:25.439 But I also loved how, yes, it's playing with Moffat's usual ideas 111 00:05:25.439 --> 00:05:28.620 but things like when the doctor breaks the link, it creates a 112 00:05:28.620 --> 00:05:31.620 brick wall, just like we saw in Girl in the Fireplace. 113 00:05:31.680 --> 00:05:32.220 Yeah. 114 00:05:32.220 --> 00:05:36.540 And I believe that ship was from the 42nd century and we are in 115 00:05:36.540 --> 00:05:41.160 the 43rd century, the beginning of the 43rd century because we've 116 00:05:41.160 --> 00:05:42.240 just flipped the date around. 117 00:05:42.300 --> 00:05:46.500 Yeah, yeah. 2024 to 4202. 118 00:05:46.620 --> 00:05:50.699 I feel like this is a Christmas variety box of chocolates. 119 00:05:51.480 --> 00:05:55.680 But also, you know, Moffatt is taking some ideas he's done before 120 00:05:55.680 --> 00:05:58.680 like, you know, the doctor dropping in to see Amy and Rory for 121 00:05:58.680 --> 00:06:01.139 Christmas dinner at the end of Doctor the Widow in the wardrobe 122 00:06:01.139 --> 00:06:04.620 but instead he's going, okay, but we never actually saw him 123 00:06:04.620 --> 00:06:06.600 sitting down for dinner with them that night. 124 00:06:06.660 --> 00:06:10.019 So he's going to do that with the Anita plot line. 125 00:06:10.079 --> 00:06:14.399 And the Anita plotline is beautiful. absolutely beautiful. 126 00:06:14.459 --> 00:06:17.160 But the time hotel itself... 127 00:06:17.339 --> 00:06:21.600 If we look back, say something like Orphan 55 that really feels 128 00:06:21.600 --> 00:06:25.560 like we've gone to a building in a place that exists in our world 129 00:06:25.560 --> 00:06:26.939 and dressed it up a bit. 130 00:06:27.060 --> 00:06:30.120 And it, look, Orphan 55 looks great. 131 00:06:30.180 --> 00:06:31.740 I'll leave it at that. 132 00:06:31.800 --> 00:06:37.139 But this, I found myself watching this going, I don't think this 133 00:06:37.139 --> 00:06:40.259 can be a real building they've adjusted, but it feels like a real 134 00:06:40.259 --> 00:06:40.740 place. 135 00:06:40.800 --> 00:06:43.079 And I think from a design point of view, that's great. 136 00:06:43.139 --> 00:06:46.860 I was imagining those same scenes being shot in the temple of 137 00:06:46.860 --> 00:06:47.819 peace as usual. 138 00:06:47.939 --> 00:06:51.060 I was kind of delighted that they weren't. 139 00:06:51.240 --> 00:06:54.899 I was just going to say that the Christmas box of chocolates thing 140 00:06:54.899 --> 00:06:57.899 is a great analogy, actually, but for me, it's a Christmas box of 141 00:06:57.899 --> 00:07:01.800 chocolates where the expiry date has happened on many of the 142 00:07:01.800 --> 00:07:04.319 chocolates and someone's lost the catalogue. 143 00:07:04.379 --> 00:07:07.079 So you're not quite sure which chocolate is which, and you're 144 00:07:07.079 --> 00:07:08.939 always a bit disappointed when you actually open the chocolate 145 00:07:08.939 --> 00:07:10.620 because the wrappings have all been mixed up. 146 00:07:10.680 --> 00:07:15.180 So one of the things, like one of the things, despite the 147 00:07:15.180 --> 00:07:19.620 familiarity of a lot of these tropes, it did strike me that Moffat 148 00:07:19.620 --> 00:07:22.199 manages to do some new things with them. 149 00:07:22.259 --> 00:07:26.579 One trope that we didn't mention is that what looks like us 150 00:07:26.579 --> 00:07:30.180 starting the story in the middle with the doctor doing the room 151 00:07:30.180 --> 00:07:34.019 service thing is actually in chronological order, those are the 152 00:07:34.019 --> 00:07:36.060 earliest things to happen in the story. 153 00:07:36.120 --> 00:07:40.319 And so that happened before the opening credits, the idea of the 154 00:07:40.319 --> 00:07:44.759 door in the hotel that's always locked and giving an explanation 155 00:07:44.759 --> 00:07:46.800 for that is classic Moffat. 156 00:07:46.860 --> 00:07:52.379 And then let's lead into the discussion about Anita with the 157 00:07:52.379 --> 00:07:56.879 chairs remark, which I just think, you know, this man has now 158 00:07:56.879 --> 00:07:59.399 written 9 Doctor Who Christmas specials. 159 00:07:59.459 --> 00:08:04.439 He's written more Doctor Who than anyone else in history, and he 160 00:08:04.439 --> 00:08:07.920 still manages to find a new thing to say about the doctor. 161 00:08:07.980 --> 00:08:12.240 So the doctor saying, you know, you live in a big spaceship with 162 00:08:12.240 --> 00:08:16.019 no chairs and no one mentions that to you because no one ever 163 00:08:16.019 --> 00:08:19.500 comes round to visit. that's why you're so lonely. 164 00:08:19.560 --> 00:08:23.699 Like, we've we've nearly been there, you know, the big TARDIS 165 00:08:23.699 --> 00:08:27.779 console room was so large back in the RTD era to emphasise how 166 00:08:27.779 --> 00:08:28.740 lonely the doctor was. 167 00:08:28.800 --> 00:08:32.159 He's managed to find a new thing to say about the doctor's 168 00:08:32.159 --> 00:08:36.299 character in a new way, and then to address that with that year 169 00:08:36.299 --> 00:08:39.240 with Anita, which I think is easily the best thing in the 170 00:08:39.240 --> 00:08:39.600 episode. 171 00:08:39.840 --> 00:08:41.759 You think that, do you? 172 00:08:41.820 --> 00:08:42.960 Yeah. 173 00:08:43.019 --> 00:08:44.220 Yeah, I really do. 174 00:08:44.279 --> 00:08:46.860 Yeah, I wanted it to be. 175 00:08:46.919 --> 00:08:52.200 I knew what they were trying to do and it just doesn't have, it 176 00:08:52.200 --> 00:08:54.240 was all kind of like, yes, now we have like kind of the Easter 177 00:08:54.240 --> 00:08:56.759 scene and we have the summer scene and we have the Halloween scene 178 00:08:56.759 --> 00:09:00.059 and it kind of to mark all of the passing of the year. 179 00:09:00.120 --> 00:09:04.200 And I was, as I was watching it, I was thinking, they're going to 180 00:09:04.200 --> 00:09:07.259 want me to be upset at the end of this where he says when he says 181 00:09:07.259 --> 00:09:10.200 goodbye to her so he can go to the other hotel and find his way 182 00:09:10.200 --> 00:09:10.980 back to the time hotel. 183 00:09:11.039 --> 00:09:14.700 And I just wasn't like, like, it just didn't, it just didn't 184 00:09:14.700 --> 00:09:15.059 work. 185 00:09:15.120 --> 00:09:19.080 It didn't, it didn't make that leap from stuff happening to, I 186 00:09:19.080 --> 00:09:20.220 care about what's happening. 187 00:09:20.279 --> 00:09:22.620 And I don't exactly know what it is. 188 00:09:22.679 --> 00:09:25.019 I mean, all these things have been played with, he's played with 189 00:09:25.019 --> 00:09:27.179 before and things like girl in the fireplaces, he've been saying 190 00:09:27.179 --> 00:09:32.340 but there's, there's a much greater sense in that episode of, of 191 00:09:32.340 --> 00:09:34.980 you're just so much more involved in, in, in, in, in the person 192 00:09:34.980 --> 00:09:38.279 and and I just don't, I didn't really care about Anita. 193 00:09:38.340 --> 00:09:41.399 I didn't care about why he was there and collecting TARDIS. 194 00:09:41.460 --> 00:09:41.940 Do you know what I mean? 195 00:09:42.000 --> 00:09:44.279 Like it's, it just was all stuff happening. 196 00:09:44.340 --> 00:09:48.419 I think that it did work on me and I'm probably not the only 197 00:09:48.419 --> 00:09:48.960 person here. 198 00:09:49.019 --> 00:09:52.620 I did think that that properly worked and I did think him sneaking 199 00:09:52.620 --> 00:09:56.399 out and that moment where he says goodbye to is sort of properly 200 00:09:56.399 --> 00:09:56.700 good. 201 00:09:56.759 --> 00:10:00.960 And I think one of the things about it is just the difference with 202 00:10:00.960 --> 00:10:05.340 this doctor and sort of previous iterations of this, you know, he's 203 00:10:05.340 --> 00:10:08.340 not bored, he's not desperate for adventures. 204 00:10:08.399 --> 00:10:11.820 He's just doing a very, very ordinary thing. 205 00:10:11.820 --> 00:10:15.240 And it was nice, I think, seeing the doctor do that. 206 00:10:15.899 --> 00:10:18.299 It worked for me. 207 00:10:18.360 --> 00:10:20.340 I could say I can see where Simon's coming from. 208 00:10:20.399 --> 00:10:23.940 Like, you do feel that it's a bit, at times, I did think it was a 209 00:10:23.940 --> 00:10:27.000 bit forced, but I bought into it, and I liked the fact that he 210 00:10:27.000 --> 00:10:29.879 wasn't going out and having big adventures, it was just with this 211 00:10:29.879 --> 00:10:33.360 with Anita, and reflecting on his life, and he didn't need to do 212 00:10:33.360 --> 00:10:36.720 what he's, you know, he stayed in places before, like, you know 213 00:10:36.720 --> 00:10:40.379 with river or with the perch we era, but he still met aliens and 214 00:10:40.379 --> 00:10:43.919 done all that, and that wasn't here, and, and I just enjoyed it 215 00:10:43.919 --> 00:10:46.500 because it was, I just felt it was a bit different from that. 216 00:10:46.559 --> 00:10:51.659 And I did by the ending and she said when he was leaving that 217 00:10:51.659 --> 00:10:52.919 present, you know. 218 00:10:52.980 --> 00:10:56.820 Also, I mean, perhaps it's the way shooty plays things. 219 00:10:56.879 --> 00:11:01.080 I think he's very intense and at times he's very... 220 00:11:01.620 --> 00:11:03.059 I mean, he's very assured of what he's doing. 221 00:11:03.120 --> 00:11:06.720 And in the moment, he can either be full on or he's not. 222 00:11:06.779 --> 00:11:10.440 I think that's one of the things I found in the episode that he's 223 00:11:10.440 --> 00:11:13.200 either full on or he's not the in-betweens. 224 00:11:13.259 --> 00:11:16.679 Perhaps weren't quite there and that sort of took me out of things 225 00:11:16.679 --> 00:11:19.919 at times, but I totally bought the Anita thing and I really loved 226 00:11:19.919 --> 00:11:20.100 it. 227 00:11:20.159 --> 00:11:21.000 Yeah. 228 00:11:21.000 --> 00:11:22.919 I really loved it as well. 229 00:11:22.980 --> 00:11:26.940 But if I, if I could posit a theory, Simon, I think something 230 00:11:26.940 --> 00:11:30.659 Stephen Moffatt does in his writing is he'll, he'll have a 231 00:11:30.659 --> 00:11:33.840 character say something and the character says, everyone does this 232 00:11:33.840 --> 00:11:36.779 and one of the best examples I can think of because it didn't 233 00:11:36.779 --> 00:11:42.360 quite jibe with me is no one says save, do you say, safe in 234 00:11:42.360 --> 00:11:43.620 silence in the library. 235 00:11:43.679 --> 00:11:45.419 And now that kind of thing. 236 00:11:45.480 --> 00:11:46.679 It's one line in the episode. 237 00:11:46.740 --> 00:11:48.539 So I can go, that's a bit of a stretch. 238 00:11:48.600 --> 00:11:51.720 But yeah, then when you have a 15 minute scene and if the central 239 00:11:51.720 --> 00:11:55.860 concept of that scene from the start, doesn't really land for you 240 00:11:55.860 --> 00:11:58.919 I can totally see how you get to the end of that and go, you know 241 00:11:58.919 --> 00:12:01.980 that was just stuff happening competently. 242 00:12:02.039 --> 00:12:05.340 And I think that is a thing with Stephen Moffat's writing because 243 00:12:05.340 --> 00:12:08.460 loads of people love series 6 and I don't. 244 00:12:08.519 --> 00:12:10.799 Loads of people love series 7 and I don't. 245 00:12:10.860 --> 00:12:14.879 There, you know, there are people who are like, um, Capaldi's 246 00:12:14.879 --> 00:12:17.519 character should never have softened where I'm, whereas I'm like 247 00:12:17.519 --> 00:12:19.559 hurry up and get to series 10. you know? 248 00:12:19.620 --> 00:12:23.940 And I, I think that, that's the thing with, with Stephen Moffatt 249 00:12:23.940 --> 00:12:26.580 is that he's like, this is what I'm writing. 250 00:12:26.639 --> 00:12:30.000 If you're not on board, come along next week, kind of thing, which 251 00:12:30.000 --> 00:12:32.220 can be a bit of a problem in a Christmas special. 252 00:12:32.279 --> 00:12:34.799 And I also think that's why Dr. Widow and the Wardrobe, which I 253 00:12:34.799 --> 00:12:39.659 love, isn't highly regarded in general because I think a lot of 254 00:12:39.659 --> 00:12:43.019 people just aren't on board with the concept set up from the 255 00:12:43.019 --> 00:12:43.379 start. 256 00:12:43.379 --> 00:12:45.960 And I don't, I'm not saying that in a pejorative sense. 257 00:12:46.019 --> 00:12:48.419 I think Stephen Robert's just the kind of person where if you're 258 00:12:48.419 --> 00:12:51.600 not on board with the concept from the beginning, it's going to be 259 00:12:51.600 --> 00:12:53.220 very hard for it to be satisfying. 260 00:12:53.279 --> 00:12:55.320 No, I can agree with that. 261 00:12:55.379 --> 00:12:57.240 I mean, doctor, it's interesting that you say you like the doctor 262 00:12:57.240 --> 00:12:58.980 the widow, and the wardrobe, because that's probably my least 263 00:12:58.980 --> 00:13:00.659 favourite Christmas special. 264 00:13:00.779 --> 00:13:05.639 So it makes sense then that I'm not sort of a fan of this one. 265 00:13:05.700 --> 00:13:07.679 I guess it comes back to that thing of what sort of Todd suggested 266 00:13:07.679 --> 00:13:09.480 or someone suggested about seeing the workings. 267 00:13:09.539 --> 00:13:12.659 Like, I can kind of see, it's like, it's like doing Dr. Christmas 268 00:13:12.659 --> 00:13:17.340 special coloured by my numbers and that's, that's kind of all it 269 00:13:17.340 --> 00:13:17.580 is. 270 00:13:17.639 --> 00:13:21.539 One of the things about that bit, though, is that it does take 271 00:13:21.539 --> 00:13:25.500 about 10 minutes, and originally, I think, um, uh, it was going to 272 00:13:25.500 --> 00:13:27.960 be a more expensive scene where the doctor travelled around the 273 00:13:27.960 --> 00:13:31.080 world and stuff, but they said, no, let's just stay in the hotel 274 00:13:31.080 --> 00:13:31.980 with Anita. 275 00:13:32.039 --> 00:13:35.220 But what it does do is it moves Nicola Cochlan's guest character 276 00:13:35.220 --> 00:13:38.399 sort of off stage for that period of time. 277 00:13:38.460 --> 00:13:42.419 How did people respond to the character of joy? 278 00:13:42.659 --> 00:13:44.700 I really liked her. 279 00:13:44.759 --> 00:13:49.139 I've been aware of Nicola Cochlan's name for a long time and I 280 00:13:49.139 --> 00:13:51.779 know that she's in Derry Girls and I know that she's in Bridgerton 281 00:13:51.779 --> 00:13:52.679 and big in those. 282 00:13:52.740 --> 00:13:53.820 I haven't seen either of those. 283 00:13:53.879 --> 00:13:57.840 So I kind of came in thinking, I don't know what her performance 284 00:13:57.840 --> 00:14:00.419 is going to be like, but I know that she's incredibly popular and 285 00:14:00.419 --> 00:14:01.559 obviously very talented. 286 00:14:01.679 --> 00:14:04.860 And I adored her. 287 00:14:04.919 --> 00:14:09.480 I adored her in all the modes, the hypnotised mode, the forced 288 00:14:09.480 --> 00:14:15.480 jollity mode, the absolute white hot fury, and where her character 289 00:14:15.480 --> 00:14:16.799 goes at the end as well. 290 00:14:16.860 --> 00:14:20.220 Absolute tour de force. 291 00:14:20.279 --> 00:14:24.659 And it's like the same thing as Catherine Tatan, the runaway bride 292 00:14:24.659 --> 00:14:25.860 but totally different. 293 00:14:25.919 --> 00:14:28.980 Like she's not a slapstick character who then has to come back and 294 00:14:28.980 --> 00:14:32.039 go, I'm going to do the weekly version of this now. 295 00:14:32.100 --> 00:14:36.539 It's a subtle and nuanced performance, but just barnstorming the 296 00:14:36.539 --> 00:14:37.320 way that Catherine was. 297 00:14:37.379 --> 00:14:39.179 What did you think, Tom? 298 00:14:39.840 --> 00:14:41.700 I liked her. 299 00:14:41.759 --> 00:14:44.279 And I can see where Brendan's coming from. 300 00:14:44.340 --> 00:14:46.559 She had a lot to do and she did it very competently. 301 00:14:46.620 --> 00:14:51.360 At times, I felt, and maybe that was with the scenes with Rashudy 302 00:14:51.360 --> 00:14:52.259 that everything was very quick. 303 00:14:52.320 --> 00:14:55.559 You know, by taking 10 minutes away from that character, you 304 00:14:55.559 --> 00:14:58.620 suddenly had to go from A to B to Z very, very quickly. 305 00:14:58.679 --> 00:15:01.500 So I perhaps struggled a bit with that, but I thought she did a 306 00:15:01.500 --> 00:15:01.860 good job. 307 00:15:01.919 --> 00:15:04.740 I just think the character wasn't perhaps as defined as I needed 308 00:15:04.740 --> 00:15:08.220 it to be at times, is my one criticism there. 309 00:15:08.279 --> 00:15:10.259 But what she did I thought she did well. 310 00:15:10.320 --> 00:15:12.360 I'd agree with Todd. 311 00:15:12.419 --> 00:15:15.240 I think that I think she was perfectly good, but I don't think 312 00:15:15.240 --> 00:15:19.559 that what's going on is too much of a mishmash for me to I sort of 313 00:15:19.559 --> 00:15:20.279 wanted to see more. 314 00:15:20.340 --> 00:15:22.860 I wanted to see what else was happening with that character. 315 00:15:22.919 --> 00:15:26.039 She was there for a plot point rather than anything else, I 316 00:15:26.039 --> 00:15:26.159 think. 317 00:15:26.220 --> 00:15:28.740 I mean, part of the problem, I think, is that a lot of her 318 00:15:28.740 --> 00:15:32.159 character stuff is just delivered in that speech by Shooty, where 319 00:15:32.159 --> 00:15:33.480 he describes her. 320 00:15:33.539 --> 00:15:36.419 And you kind of go, oh, yeah, she is really like that. 321 00:15:36.480 --> 00:15:40.559 That's what the performance is, but we are kind of told, really 322 00:15:40.559 --> 00:15:42.899 more than we get the opportunity to see it. 323 00:15:42.960 --> 00:15:46.919 And because when she's introduced and she's supposed to be this 324 00:15:46.919 --> 00:15:50.519 sort of terrible, sad, sack, you know, the hotel room isn't quite 325 00:15:50.519 --> 00:15:54.480 dingy and awful enough, you know, because we're making a lovely 326 00:15:54.480 --> 00:15:55.320 hotel room. 327 00:15:55.379 --> 00:15:56.399 It's sort of ordinary. 328 00:15:56.460 --> 00:15:56.820 Yeah, yeah. 329 00:15:56.879 --> 00:15:57.419 Yeah, yeah, yeah. 330 00:15:57.480 --> 00:15:59.820 I've stayed in much worse places, Willy. 331 00:15:59.879 --> 00:16:01.080 Exactly. 332 00:16:01.080 --> 00:16:04.620 And because there's so much business going on in that scene where 333 00:16:04.620 --> 00:16:07.980 she's introduced, and you know, there's a lizard man and there's 334 00:16:07.980 --> 00:16:13.139 Anita and Anita's reaction is funny and there's the Zectron 2000 335 00:16:13.139 --> 00:16:16.679 high security briefcase and all of that sort of thing are all 336 00:16:16.679 --> 00:16:17.220 there. 337 00:16:17.340 --> 00:16:20.580 And she's possessed for sort of quite a lot of it. 338 00:16:20.700 --> 00:16:24.299 So it is hard to kind of read her, but it is a great performance. 339 00:16:24.539 --> 00:16:28.320 I guess the thing is, there was deadly danger at the beginning 340 00:16:28.320 --> 00:16:30.480 with the briefcase and everybody's dying, right? 341 00:16:30.539 --> 00:16:31.860 And I really love that. 342 00:16:31.919 --> 00:16:35.820 And then it went to her and I went, well, very early on and I 343 00:16:35.820 --> 00:16:37.019 thought, well, she's not going to die. 344 00:16:37.139 --> 00:16:38.519 So how are they going to get out of this? 345 00:16:38.580 --> 00:16:39.899 And he's going to have to do certain things. 346 00:16:39.960 --> 00:16:42.600 And I started going, well, he's going to make her angry. 347 00:16:42.659 --> 00:16:45.299 And so I started to sort of predict what he was going to do, like 348 00:16:45.299 --> 00:16:46.379 that whole sequence. 349 00:16:46.440 --> 00:16:49.559 So that sort of took me out of that bit a bit if there's, if 350 00:16:49.559 --> 00:16:52.679 that's a bit of a criticism that I can throw at it. 351 00:16:52.740 --> 00:16:53.399 But that's what I found. 352 00:16:54.600 --> 00:16:58.320 One thing that has been slightly controversial is the COVID 353 00:16:58.320 --> 00:16:58.620 thing. 354 00:16:58.679 --> 00:17:05.339 Um, and I have to say that that was something that I thought 355 00:17:05.339 --> 00:17:12.599 perhaps needed to be done, that all of that stuff happened 4 years 356 00:17:12.599 --> 00:17:18.660 ago now, but at Christmas, Britain is full of families who said 357 00:17:18.660 --> 00:17:22.200 goodbye to their mother or grandmother or grandfather on an iPad 358 00:17:22.200 --> 00:17:27.000 and making that real and acknowledging it and having the doctor 359 00:17:27.000 --> 00:17:28.500 angry about it. 360 00:17:28.559 --> 00:17:34.259 I think was, well, I personally found it cathartic. 361 00:17:34.319 --> 00:17:40.319 Um, and I think probably, um, it's the sort of engagement with the 362 00:17:40.319 --> 00:17:44.099 real world that you're a bit tentative about, I think, Simon, but 363 00:17:44.099 --> 00:17:46.079 that I'm really here for, I think. 364 00:17:47.519 --> 00:17:51.119 I can be tentative about it, depending on what the subject matter 365 00:17:51.119 --> 00:17:51.539 is. 366 00:17:51.599 --> 00:17:56.099 I think allegory is much a much better way of telling it, but I 367 00:17:56.099 --> 00:17:57.960 have only watched this once, I confess. 368 00:17:58.019 --> 00:18:05.099 And my recollection of that whole thing is less about the 369 00:18:05.099 --> 00:18:09.059 injustice of the fact that the rules were put in place in such a 370 00:18:09.059 --> 00:18:11.819 way that people weren't able to, in Australia, for instance, cross 371 00:18:11.819 --> 00:18:15.420 state boundaries to be able to, to see loved ones dying or 372 00:18:15.420 --> 00:18:19.259 otherwise, that in, you know, and in hospital, there are all these 373 00:18:19.259 --> 00:18:19.920 restrictions as well. 374 00:18:19.980 --> 00:18:25.319 I didn't read anything in that about the fact that that was 375 00:18:25.319 --> 00:18:27.779 probably a bad idea and a little bit excessive. 376 00:18:27.839 --> 00:18:30.119 It was just purely for me. 377 00:18:30.180 --> 00:18:33.240 All I saw them about was like the people in charge, you know 378 00:18:33.240 --> 00:18:35.940 taking the piss and having party gates and all that sort of stuff 379 00:18:35.940 --> 00:18:38.400 which is obviously party gates a very big deal in Britain. 380 00:18:38.460 --> 00:18:41.519 You know, we cannot overstate how big a deal party gate is for the 381 00:18:41.519 --> 00:18:41.819 British. 382 00:18:41.880 --> 00:18:44.519 Having said that, I don't think it was saying what I think you 383 00:18:44.519 --> 00:18:47.460 were wanting it to say, which is that the doctor was outraged 384 00:18:47.460 --> 00:18:49.559 about the fact that people weren't able to connect with each other 385 00:18:49.559 --> 00:18:50.700 in these moments. 386 00:18:50.759 --> 00:18:51.599 Don't you think? 387 00:18:51.660 --> 00:18:53.819 Well, no, I'm not sure that he did say that. 388 00:18:53.880 --> 00:18:57.839 I do think that, and certainly it has been read that way, and 389 00:18:57.839 --> 00:19:00.539 there are a lot of people out there who are sort of a bit cross 390 00:19:00.539 --> 00:19:04.380 that the doctor appears to be anti-lockdown at that point. 391 00:19:04.440 --> 00:19:11.039 Um, you know, uh, but I think it was the issue where politics and 392 00:19:11.039 --> 00:19:16.319 things where, where rules were made for people and people 393 00:19:16.319 --> 00:19:21.660 obediently did the right thing and the people who made those rules 394 00:19:21.660 --> 00:19:22.859 didn't do that. 395 00:19:23.400 --> 00:19:24.839 Oh, yeah. 396 00:19:24.900 --> 00:19:25.980 I think that's what I'm saying. 397 00:19:26.039 --> 00:19:28.559 I think that's what they were So talking about, rather than I 398 00:19:28.559 --> 00:19:31.319 think, the point that is more relevant, which is the fact that 399 00:19:31.319 --> 00:19:35.220 everyone went a little bit overboard with what was the 400 00:19:35.220 --> 00:19:37.200 requirements at the time, especially because especially in 401 00:19:37.200 --> 00:19:40.140 somewhere like Britain, where you had cases everywhere anyway, it 402 00:19:40.140 --> 00:19:41.700 all was kind of a bit stupid, frankly. 403 00:19:41.819 --> 00:19:45.720 I think it's probably impossible to, you know, it was impossible 404 00:19:45.720 --> 00:19:49.500 for anyone to really properly know and people were lying blind and 405 00:19:49.500 --> 00:19:52.799 having difficulty calibrating what to do and stuff like that and 406 00:19:52.799 --> 00:19:53.940 maybe in retrospect. 407 00:19:54.000 --> 00:19:55.920 People went overboard. 408 00:19:55.980 --> 00:20:02.519 Maybe they didn't, you know, about 180,000 people died during the 409 00:20:02.519 --> 00:20:04.559 pandemic of COVID in Great Britain. 410 00:20:04.619 --> 00:20:06.480 So it was a sort of big deal. 411 00:20:06.539 --> 00:20:09.240 And so I don't think that that was what was being litigated 412 00:20:09.240 --> 00:20:09.720 there. 413 00:20:09.779 --> 00:20:14.759 But I do think that what it was, was the anger around what people 414 00:20:14.759 --> 00:20:19.380 had to suffer and that the people who were making the rules 415 00:20:19.380 --> 00:20:21.240 weren't participating in that. 416 00:20:21.299 --> 00:20:22.440 In quite the same way. 417 00:20:22.500 --> 00:20:23.279 Yeah, yeah, exactly. 418 00:20:23.339 --> 00:20:25.319 I mean, that's a tale as old as time, you know. 419 00:20:25.859 --> 00:20:27.180 Worth getting angry about. 420 00:20:27.960 --> 00:20:34.440 Something I think it brings up is that Stephen Moffatt, it's kind 421 00:20:34.440 --> 00:20:35.099 of weird, right? 422 00:20:35.160 --> 00:20:38.279 We look at Moffatt's past Doctor Who, and it seems to take place 423 00:20:38.279 --> 00:20:43.859 in a more fantastical world reality divorced from our own than 424 00:20:43.859 --> 00:20:44.640 Russell's does. 425 00:20:44.700 --> 00:20:50.460 But at the same time, Russell creates analogues for political 426 00:20:50.460 --> 00:20:51.240 leaders, right? 427 00:20:51.299 --> 00:20:55.079 He does he does kill Tony Blair and makes direct reference to Iraq 428 00:20:55.079 --> 00:20:58.259 in the 1st series, but after that, we have Harriet Jones and then 429 00:20:58.259 --> 00:20:59.579 we have Harold Saxon. 430 00:20:59.579 --> 00:21:02.460 And then we have Arthur Coleman Winters. you know, we don't have 431 00:21:02.460 --> 00:21:03.000 George W. 432 00:21:03.000 --> 00:21:03.480 Bush. 433 00:21:03.599 --> 00:21:08.400 Then Stephen Moffatt comes along and we get direct references to 434 00:21:08.400 --> 00:21:10.259 Donald Trump. 435 00:21:10.440 --> 00:21:14.339 You know, we get direct references to real political figures and 436 00:21:14.339 --> 00:21:18.599 real political scandals in the Moffat era. 437 00:21:18.599 --> 00:21:24.839 And I found myself thinking, you know, Where does Chris Gibnall 438 00:21:24.839 --> 00:21:25.200 fall on this? 439 00:21:25.259 --> 00:21:27.779 And of course, Chris Gibnall doesn't reference the real world very 440 00:21:27.779 --> 00:21:28.079 much. 441 00:21:28.440 --> 00:21:33.180 And for once, I actually think Chris Chibnall not telling a story 442 00:21:33.180 --> 00:21:39.180 that directly references lockdown was a good thing, because I 443 00:21:39.180 --> 00:21:43.740 think at the time, people didn't want stories about lockdown. 444 00:21:43.740 --> 00:21:46.259 And I remember... 445 00:21:46.319 --> 00:21:46.680 Yeah. 446 00:21:46.740 --> 00:21:50.519 I remember reading a tweet at the time of someone saying, in 5 or 447 00:21:50.519 --> 00:21:54.359 6 years, we're going to have lots of stories about 2020, but we 448 00:21:54.359 --> 00:21:56.640 are not ready for them right now and right now we need something 449 00:21:56.640 --> 00:21:57.839 more fantastical. 450 00:21:57.900 --> 00:22:01.200 So when that came up in the episode. 451 00:22:01.259 --> 00:22:03.779 And I did have the moment of the doctor saying, hold on, is the 452 00:22:03.779 --> 00:22:05.940 doctor anti, what is the doctor anti-lockdown? 453 00:22:06.000 --> 00:22:07.200 That's part of the reason I watched it again. 454 00:22:07.259 --> 00:22:10.319 It's like, no, he's making her angry and he's making her angry in 455 00:22:10.319 --> 00:22:14.579 the most unfair way possible in order to save her life and he even 456 00:22:14.579 --> 00:22:16.440 apologises for it twice. 457 00:22:16.500 --> 00:22:20.700 You know, it's rule one, the doctor lies. 458 00:22:20.759 --> 00:22:23.880 Not everything the doctor says is him saying this is my view of 459 00:22:23.880 --> 00:22:24.420 the universe. 460 00:22:24.720 --> 00:22:32.339 But yeah, I think it is an important moment. in Joe. Yeah, I think 461 00:22:32.339 --> 00:22:32.940 I think you're right. 462 00:22:33.000 --> 00:22:35.220 I mean, it's interesting and I think, because Nathan, you had a 463 00:22:35.220 --> 00:22:37.680 little social media spray yesterday, I think, about this, which 464 00:22:37.680 --> 00:22:40.079 was the fact that it's almost like we've all forgotten about the 465 00:22:40.079 --> 00:22:40.980 fact that this happened. 466 00:22:41.039 --> 00:22:42.900 And we have, oddly enough. 467 00:22:42.960 --> 00:22:46.859 I don't know whether we'll ever be quite ready for a lockdown 468 00:22:46.859 --> 00:22:49.740 thing because it's kind of like, well, it's all a bit tedious or 469 00:22:49.740 --> 00:22:51.539 not a little bit tedious, but there were various personal 470 00:22:51.539 --> 00:22:54.000 tragedies, but it's almost like everyone sort of remembers their 471 00:22:54.000 --> 00:22:57.240 own personal tragedies relating to it, but then at the same time 472 00:22:57.240 --> 00:22:58.799 it's kind of all been forgotten. 473 00:22:58.859 --> 00:23:01.859 And I don't think it's about what I was talking about, well, like 474 00:23:01.859 --> 00:23:03.000 the lockdown thing. 475 00:23:03.059 --> 00:23:04.799 I wasn't trying to suggest that they shouldn't have been any. 476 00:23:04.859 --> 00:23:07.680 I'm just trying to suggest that there was this kind of influ- this 477 00:23:07.680 --> 00:23:10.259 this, this, which we certainly experience in Australia, this 478 00:23:10.259 --> 00:23:12.960 bizarre inflexibility about it. 479 00:23:12.960 --> 00:23:14.640 And I think that's a thing. 480 00:23:14.700 --> 00:23:17.940 And I think that would have been doing it as kind of just a 481 00:23:17.940 --> 00:23:20.940 fragment of an episode is kind of a bit like you're wasting a 482 00:23:20.940 --> 00:23:24.779 story there because there's a whole story about how, you know, this 483 00:23:24.779 --> 00:23:27.720 kind of thing happens and the way there's this kind of group think 484 00:23:27.720 --> 00:23:31.019 in the community, along with the virtue signal, goes with it about 485 00:23:31.019 --> 00:23:32.339 who's doing this and who's doing that. 486 00:23:32.400 --> 00:23:34.559 And there's a whole thing there and it has just kind of been 487 00:23:34.559 --> 00:23:37.440 frittered away in a moment. don't know. 488 00:23:37.500 --> 00:23:40.019 I just feel that it was good to address it. 489 00:23:40.079 --> 00:23:43.440 And they did it in a way that everybody has their own personal 490 00:23:43.440 --> 00:23:46.140 take and you will, and it makes you think about that time and 491 00:23:46.140 --> 00:23:46.619 reflect. 492 00:23:46.619 --> 00:23:50.819 And I didn't want it to be too deep per se, and I just thought 493 00:23:50.819 --> 00:23:53.099 that it was, it was good to have it referenced. 494 00:23:53.460 --> 00:23:55.440 Mm, I agree. 495 00:23:55.500 --> 00:24:00.059 All right, let's talk about the ending. 496 00:24:00.119 --> 00:24:03.720 So someone, someone on social media, and I think it was a big 497 00:24:03.720 --> 00:24:04.380 Finnish writer. 498 00:24:04.440 --> 00:24:07.440 I can't remember who exactly, said that the moment that there was 499 00:24:07.440 --> 00:24:11.819 a star growing in the briefcase, he knew that it was going to be 500 00:24:11.819 --> 00:24:14.039 the star of Bethlehem by the end of the episode. 501 00:24:14.099 --> 00:24:17.579 I believe that was a friend of the podcast, James Curray Smith. 502 00:24:18.059 --> 00:24:19.559 There we go. 503 00:24:19.980 --> 00:24:21.839 Oh I didn't. 504 00:24:21.900 --> 00:24:23.220 I didn't see that coming. 505 00:24:23.339 --> 00:24:24.359 No, I didn't either. 506 00:24:24.660 --> 00:24:28.140 As soon as they were standing on a cliff top with the night sky in 507 00:24:28.140 --> 00:24:31.740 the background, I had that tenant moment of no. 508 00:24:31.799 --> 00:24:34.920 No, no, no, no, no. 509 00:24:34.980 --> 00:24:35.819 Oh, camels. 510 00:24:35.880 --> 00:24:36.299 Yeah. 511 00:24:39.900 --> 00:24:42.359 What did you think, Todd? 512 00:24:42.420 --> 00:24:44.460 I was fine with it, you know? 513 00:24:44.519 --> 00:24:48.059 She said she was going to look after the star and it certainly 514 00:24:48.059 --> 00:24:49.799 then thought it. 515 00:24:49.920 --> 00:24:55.079 Or fell into villain guard's plans, you know, to be the religion 516 00:24:55.079 --> 00:24:56.519 and or whatever of the future. 517 00:24:56.579 --> 00:24:58.740 You know, they, they've created their own history. 518 00:24:58.799 --> 00:25:00.720 And I was fine with it actually. 519 00:25:00.779 --> 00:25:04.259 I just, I just, I just bought a little wiry smile to my face going 520 00:25:04.259 --> 00:25:08.400 some people are going to be so outraged by this, but it's not 521 00:25:08.400 --> 00:25:10.140 going to be me this time. 522 00:25:13.500 --> 00:25:18.299 I still can't get over Russell killing Tylie at Christmas, you 523 00:25:18.299 --> 00:25:19.380 know, like I just love... 524 00:25:19.380 --> 00:25:20.940 That's far more of a sin, sure. 525 00:25:21.240 --> 00:25:22.799 Well, yeah. 526 00:25:22.859 --> 00:25:25.859 But this, like, I just find this hard to read. 527 00:25:25.920 --> 00:25:28.980 Like, I know that she ascends into the sky. 528 00:25:29.039 --> 00:25:31.680 All of those people who are miserable in the opening credits are 529 00:25:31.680 --> 00:25:32.460 now happy. 530 00:25:32.519 --> 00:25:34.920 Even Millie Gibson's happy now. 531 00:25:34.980 --> 00:25:38.339 You know, there's sort of happiness and joy everywhere. 532 00:25:38.700 --> 00:25:42.720 But I'm still with the doctor, you know, you're going to burn up. 533 00:25:42.779 --> 00:25:44.579 You're a star. you can burn. 534 00:25:44.640 --> 00:25:48.299 You know, so it was hard for me to read that as the triumph that 535 00:25:48.299 --> 00:25:49.740 the episode clearly wanted. 536 00:25:50.279 --> 00:25:51.539 And then the music was suggesting it was. 537 00:25:52.019 --> 00:25:52.980 Yeah, well, exactly. 538 00:25:53.039 --> 00:25:54.180 Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. 539 00:25:54.240 --> 00:25:55.680 And it was clearly meant to be that. 540 00:25:55.740 --> 00:25:59.339 Like, that was meant to be it, but it just, like, someone goes up 541 00:25:59.339 --> 00:26:03.539 and becomes a star with a lizard and that nice guy Trev, like, it 542 00:26:03.539 --> 00:26:07.019 just seemed very odd to me and perhaps a little bit overwrought. 543 00:26:07.140 --> 00:26:09.359 I can see where you're coming from. 544 00:26:09.420 --> 00:26:10.140 Totally. 545 00:26:10.200 --> 00:26:14.160 I had long past caring by that point, but I certainly don't have 546 00:26:14.160 --> 00:26:17.099 any issue with it being with her being the star of Bethlehem. 547 00:26:17.160 --> 00:26:20.640 And, you know, I don't think it needs to say that need not say 548 00:26:20.640 --> 00:26:21.119 anything. 549 00:26:21.240 --> 00:26:23.460 It need not be an endorsement of the Christian religion. 550 00:26:23.519 --> 00:26:26.160 It's just, you know, it just is. 551 00:26:26.220 --> 00:26:27.960 And so it's Christmas, for God's sake. 552 00:26:28.019 --> 00:26:29.099 Yeah exactly. 553 00:26:29.220 --> 00:26:31.619 It's not lampooning the Christian religion. 554 00:26:31.680 --> 00:26:37.980 It is presenting an image, a symbol from the faith in an affirming 555 00:26:37.980 --> 00:26:38.279 way. 556 00:26:38.339 --> 00:26:39.960 Exactly to that. 557 00:26:40.019 --> 00:26:43.559 Yeah, in terms of the whole ascending into a starving, I kind of 558 00:26:43.559 --> 00:26:46.380 read it like the ending of Star Trek, the motion picture. 559 00:26:46.440 --> 00:26:50.519 Part of the point is, you don't know what happens to Decker and 560 00:26:50.519 --> 00:26:51.000 Ilia. 561 00:26:51.059 --> 00:26:58.079 We as humans cannot comprehend what becoming a star means, but I 562 00:26:58.079 --> 00:27:02.519 will say that we have encountered a sentient star in the new 563 00:27:02.519 --> 00:27:04.380 series of Doctor Who before. 564 00:27:04.440 --> 00:27:06.000 So this is a prequel to 42. 565 00:27:06.480 --> 00:27:08.460 Well there you go. 566 00:27:08.519 --> 00:27:09.059 Okay. 567 00:27:09.119 --> 00:27:12.420 Maybe she is the star in 42. been tired of waiting around so 568 00:27:12.420 --> 00:27:12.660 long. 569 00:27:14.160 --> 00:27:17.759 I'd also like to raise a point of physics. 570 00:27:17.940 --> 00:27:23.940 If she goes away and if she goes away and becomes a star in the 571 00:27:23.940 --> 00:27:29.220 year one, now presumably she is no closer than Alpha Centuri, ergo 572 00:27:29.220 --> 00:27:32.099 the light from that star would not reach Earth until at least the 573 00:27:32.099 --> 00:27:32.819 year five. 574 00:27:32.880 --> 00:27:36.480 So has the doctor been standing around on that hilltop waiting to 575 00:27:36.480 --> 00:27:39.180 see that star for 5 years at the end of the episode? 576 00:27:39.240 --> 00:27:43.140 Maybe it's like the kitchen at some 30 minutes ahead in time or 577 00:27:43.140 --> 00:27:43.380 something. 578 00:27:43.859 --> 00:27:44.579 Now that was a clever idea. 579 00:27:44.640 --> 00:27:45.720 That was a clever idea. 580 00:27:45.779 --> 00:27:47.099 That was, it was going on. 581 00:27:47.160 --> 00:27:49.920 No, I think it's just the fact that it's a mini star that's 582 00:27:49.920 --> 00:27:53.339 somewhere around, you know, where the moon orbits for now and she 583 00:27:53.339 --> 00:27:56.220 gets, as she gets bigger and brighter, she disappears off into 584 00:27:56.220 --> 00:27:58.259 well, wherever the 42 star is. 585 00:27:58.319 --> 00:27:59.819 You know what? 586 00:27:59.880 --> 00:28:02.279 I'm, I'm, we're going to carry that. 587 00:28:02.339 --> 00:28:04.380 I'm... 588 00:28:05.279 --> 00:28:08.519 I actually think rather than a sort of image from the Christian 589 00:28:08.519 --> 00:28:12.720 religion, it's really an image from Christmas cards and so it is 590 00:28:12.720 --> 00:28:15.299 kind of more or less thoroughly secular. 591 00:28:15.359 --> 00:28:18.960 And the episode has come down on the side of the universe 592 00:28:18.960 --> 00:28:24.000 appearing out of nothing because you remember that the doctor gets 593 00:28:24.000 --> 00:28:27.779 the code literally because he heard himself saying it as has 594 00:28:27.779 --> 00:28:28.920 happened so often. 595 00:28:28.980 --> 00:28:32.940 And he actually, this time explains, look, yes, it came from 596 00:28:32.940 --> 00:28:36.779 nowhere, but so did the universe and no one complains about that. 597 00:28:36.839 --> 00:28:42.779 So, um, you know, so, and, and it is, it's, um, it's foreshadowed 598 00:28:42.779 --> 00:28:43.559 a bit, isn't it? 599 00:28:43.619 --> 00:28:46.740 Because the doctor speculates at the time hotel is the reason that 600 00:28:46.740 --> 00:28:48.359 there was no room in the inn. 601 00:28:48.480 --> 00:28:49.740 Oh, right. 602 00:28:49.740 --> 00:28:54.779 The inn was full of time hotel tourists. trying to spot the deep 603 00:28:54.779 --> 00:28:55.500 Jesus, yes. 604 00:28:55.559 --> 00:28:56.400 Hilarious. 605 00:28:57.839 --> 00:28:59.460 All right. 606 00:28:59.519 --> 00:29:01.079 Well, that's it for now. 607 00:29:01.140 --> 00:29:04.079 We're obviously going to be back for season 2 next year. 608 00:29:04.140 --> 00:29:09.599 And later in the week, I think on Wednesday, we will be releasing 609 00:29:09.599 --> 00:29:15.599 our final episode of this leg of Flight through Entirety. 610 00:29:15.660 --> 00:29:17.039 So that's on New Year's Day. 611 00:29:17.099 --> 00:29:19.440 That's our Capoldi Moffat retrospective. 612 00:29:19.500 --> 00:29:23.759 But don't fear, we will still be podcasting about Doctor Who next 613 00:29:23.759 --> 00:29:24.119 year. 614 00:29:24.180 --> 00:29:29.759 So make sure that you follow us on Flightthrough Entirety.com on 615 00:29:29.759 --> 00:29:34.680 Blue Sky or on FTE podcast on Mastodon, and you'll hear all of the 616 00:29:34.680 --> 00:29:37.500 news about the 2nd great and bountiful Human Empire, which you're 617 00:29:37.500 --> 00:29:41.279 listening to now, and about 500 year diary, which will start in 618 00:29:41.279 --> 00:29:43.799 the 1st half of next year. 619 00:29:43.859 --> 00:29:47.279 Um, Brendan, do you have anything to plug? 620 00:29:47.579 --> 00:29:51.900 Uh, we have just released our special Christmas episode of the 621 00:29:51.900 --> 00:29:56.039 three-handed game on the very Christmassy, too many Christmas 622 00:29:56.039 --> 00:30:02.099 trees, and you can find that at um, THG podcast on Blue Sky, or 623 00:30:02.099 --> 00:30:03.660 for looking for three-handed game on Facebook. 624 00:30:03.839 --> 00:30:07.920 And I want to mention 2 other podcasts, Maximum Power is back with 625 00:30:07.920 --> 00:30:12.960 its coverage of series D and tomorrow, if you're listening to this 626 00:30:12.960 --> 00:30:14.759 immediately after its release. 627 00:30:14.819 --> 00:30:19.079 Tomorrow, we'll see the release of episode 2 of Series D, which is 628 00:30:19.079 --> 00:30:21.900 the beloved Fan Favourite. 629 00:30:21.900 --> 00:30:25.259 Power by Ben Steed. 630 00:30:25.920 --> 00:30:30.240 And of course, Untitled Star Trek Project continues unabated. 631 00:30:30.660 --> 00:30:33.480 Todd, did you want to plug? 632 00:30:33.539 --> 00:30:37.259 Which I've listened to move along home, which is just glorious. 633 00:30:37.319 --> 00:30:39.119 Glorious. 634 00:30:39.180 --> 00:30:41.880 And I just got one other thing to say. 8 out of 10 for me. 635 00:30:41.940 --> 00:30:43.859 Oh, we needed to hear that. 636 00:30:43.920 --> 00:30:45.480 I can't believe that I did not. 637 00:30:45.900 --> 00:30:48.539 For joy to the world or move along home? 638 00:30:48.599 --> 00:30:49.559 Both. 639 00:30:49.619 --> 00:30:50.640 Excellent. 640 00:30:52.079 --> 00:30:56.039 On the scale of the doctor with the widow in the wardrobe up to a 641 00:30:56.039 --> 00:31:00.180 Christmas carol, it is too close to the doctor, the widow in the 642 00:31:00.180 --> 00:31:01.319 wardrobe for me, I'm afraid. 643 00:31:01.380 --> 00:31:03.420 This is so much better than that. 644 00:31:04.319 --> 00:31:06.660 The next doctor is right there. 645 00:31:06.779 --> 00:31:08.759 I don't know. is right there. 646 00:31:08.819 --> 00:31:10.500 Oh, yes, no, I wasn't sure which one to rank last. 647 00:31:11.640 --> 00:31:13.740 Funnily enough, Simon. 648 00:31:13.799 --> 00:31:16.680 I'd agree with you, but probably not in the direction you're 649 00:31:16.680 --> 00:31:17.039 expecting. 650 00:31:18.299 --> 00:31:22.859 All right, so all that remains is for me to say, until next time 651 00:31:22.859 --> 00:31:25.920 New Year's resolution, get some chairs in. 652 00:31:25.980 --> 00:31:28.559 Thank you very much for listening and good night. 653 00:31:28.619 --> 00:31:29.579 Good night. 654 00:31:29.640 --> 00:31:30.839 See you soon. 655 00:31:30.900 --> 00:31:32.099 Night night.