Hello, dear listener, and welcome back to the 2nd great and
bountiful Human Empire, the only Doctor Who flash cast that's in
your TARDIS time control, killing your dudes.
I'm Nathan.
I'm Brendan.
I'm Simon.
And I'm Todd.
So we are here to talk about Empire of Death, which we saw mere
days ago, the finale to season one of this new version of Doctor
Who, written by Russell T. Davis, as usual, and directed by Jamie
Donahue, who did last week's episode as well.
Let's start by just giving a kind of general feeling about how we
uh, sorry.
Let's just start by giving a sort of general idea of how we felt
about the episode.
Simon, you're on record, I think, as saying that RTD series
finales aren't quite your favourite thing.
They tend not to be.
How did you feel about this one?
Look, I enjoyed it.
I probably put it 2nd behind Bad Wolf Parting of the Ways, which
is the only one that I rate in any serious way.
I actually found myself enjoying it.
Yes, there are some strange problems.
Usually, though, a good sign is when you only think about those
problems after you've watched it rather than while you're watching
it, and I'm sure we might pick up on some of those later.
But no, look, I think I think it was, it was fine.
I think it actually fulfilled the promise of the previous
episode.
Usually the problem with the 2nd episode is that it disappoints
what's being promised in episode one, which is actually not the
problem with the classic series.
I will acknowledge.
But in this case, I actually think it's fulfilled that.
Yes, it wasn't there are silly things with it, but I thought it
was great.
I thought everyone was great in it.
I thought it was probably shooting's best performance of the
season, and Bonnie, I mean, Bonnie.
I mean, she, she, she, she, she is actually the best person in it
by a significant mile.
Um, and I include shooting in that.
She is just better than axe rings around the rest of them, I have
to say.
What did you think, Todd?
I agree.
I thought it was charming.
Bonnie Langford was just phenomenal.
Absolutely, absolutely stole the show.
It's funny, I think we mentioned last week that she was in DWM
saying that she hadn't been very good in the show that she feared
that she wasn't very good or maybe a couple of weeks ago, but she
is so experienced, you know, and just so good as a result.
And in fact, her kind of falling asleep on board the TARDIS, as if
her energy's being sapped from her, is actually a little bit
difficult to watch.
It's really quite sad.
Or the moment where she sees, you know, Colin's jacket.
Yes.
Oh, just touching.
The look on her face when she's touching the... sleeve is just
lovely.
The whole episode is worth, the whole double is worth it for her
alone for me.
Yeah, yeah.
Well, the whole revival, I think.
What did you think, Fred?
Um, I've said that this season I felt like every episode has
bettered the previous one. and we started out in a strong place
anyway.
This is where it falls down.
Not entirely.
It's not a disaster.
Um, but I was idly thinking today and I ranked the Russell T
Davies season enders and I'm like, okay.
Yes, I saw that.
Yeah.
So it's like Bad Wolf Parting of the Ways, Journey's End, and last
of the time, Lords, I consider them all to be 10 out of 10.
Um, Army of Ghost Doomsday are considered to be 9 out of 10.
This and the giggle, I consider a 7 out of 10.
So they're still solid.
They're still solid.
And then you've got the end of time.
Daylight, the end of time.
I'm in shock, Frank.
I'm in shock Not what I expected from you.
Yeah.
Now, look, I completely agree with what's been said so far.
I think Bonnie is excellent.
I think shoot he's amazing.
I think the cliffhanger resolve of, oh, what if we just pull the
doctor out of the way of the slow moving agent of Soutek?
is it made me laugh in the moment.
It's just like a proper 80s cliffhanger resolution, isn't it?
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
We did call that a proper 80s cliffhanger is wait.
We did it in flux as well, I think, didn't we?
Where we just moved quickly away from swarm at one point.
Yeah, and look, I think most of my problems with it are sort of
around explanations for why things are happening in the plot just
seem to be, and it's this now, and because this is how this
works.
And I just feel like some of those more fantastical explanations
we've had since Russell came back have been better handled in the
past, like where gods come from and how magic works and da da da
da.
I don't know if some lines were cut out or if it was something
with the direction and the vision made things clearer.
That being said, I still very much enjoyed it.
I don't think it's a bad or weak episode by any means.
It's just what has come before, including last week was so good
that this needed to be more explicit, in my opinion, in what it
was trying to do.
I did think there were some important moments of explanation that
were actually fudged by the director.
And in particular, I think, uh, maybe the, the reveal where Louise
points to the, the lamp post and we discover it's a thing.
I think that's actually badly done.
I think I think that's that or whole thing and this is probably
about the season rather than the episode, but I find that a bit
trite. this mysterious figure pointing in a very kind of Gothic
way.
It's all, and then for it to just reveal that she's just a normal
person, basically, and ends now a nurse, I think that's, that's
probably the weakest thing.
But because it didn't, it's not what the episode was about.
That didn't bother me too much.
See, in a way, I think it is what the episode's about, and I liked
it for that reason, that it wasn't, you know, a science fiction
thing, and it wasn't quite the Gothic thing that we imagined it
was going to be.
We had the rug pulled out from under us last week with the, it was
2004.
It wasn't Charles Dickens, you know.
And so having that very strange fairy tale thing and then just
learning that in fact it was just a frightened girl abandoning her
baby, you know, like I did actually like that outcome, it meant
that we don't have a space reasons thing about Ruby's origin.
She's just a person.
I don't mind that at all.
It's just that, like, here's this mysterious hooded figure, and
she's pointing in an ominous way, and then in other episodes
Maestro's saying that there's something wrong with Ruby and her
song, and I just kind of think that it just doesn't quite, 2 and 2
don't make four. you know what I mean?
Like, I just think that's how I feel about that.
But I don't necessarily loathe it.
I just think that it wasn't the best, you know?
Yeah, it's not the fact that she's a normal person. the fact that
it's all the setup with all the the pointing in the robes and
everything like that.
It's just like, unless there's something next season, you know?
Exactly.
And that's maybe what the maestro thing was.
It's supposed to be referring to that, but, you know, Yeah.
And look, you know, Russell knew when he started writing this
season that the next season had been commissioned.
Right.
So, yeah, he has made some comments in recent weeks that
storylines continue next season and he's now working on season 3
which has not been officially commissioned, but he is working on
it.
Hence, the woman in Mary Tam's outfit from the rebus operation, who
was previously wearing Clara's outfit from Face the Raven.
I think she's fabulous and I thought that ending was magnificent.
Just absolutely.
I was actually really happy that she had nothing to do with C tech
and nothing to do with it. because that was the assumption in the
previous episode. and I think that that was, that was, that was
pretty good.
And she sounds really terrifying.
She's going to go and kill God.
I just think she's wonderful.
Like, you know, all of her little lines.
I had such plans for a boy and then, you know, yeah, just, yeah
yeah. in what was it?
absolute terror.
It was just delicious.
Yeah, I mean, that's the thing.
Like, I've been saying all along.
I think she's river song, but now with some comments Russell has
made this week where Russell's like, no, I deliberately put in red
herrings, because I know fans are going to talk about them.
Um, it's like, okay, her name is based on water, she's wearing
Romana's coat.
She's got a parasol on a roof.
She's got a suitcase that I thought said trends of law, but it
actually says Penzance.
So it's like where it's being hinted that she is Romana River song
at Clara.
She none of them.
Oh, there was a hint she was Susan last week, too, remember?
And yeah, and she was Susan, of course.
Yes.
Yeah, but yeah, I've now decided she's none of them.
No, she's Chancellor Flavia.
Well, you know Russell loves Chancellor Flavia, so that's entirely
a possibility.
You know, I just, I just loved, like, I love the call back to 73
yards and I love the memory TARDIS.
I loved that and all the little things to do with the past in
that.
You know, I just thought it was really beautiful, so much of it
you know?
Do we know if they built the memory Tartars for this and then
decided to do all of the tales from the Tartars?
Yeah, right.
So it was that way round rather than, yeah.
So yeah, we'll get to that in a minute because I think that that
plays an important role in the episode, obviously.
But let's just talk about how it begins because the cliffhanger is
resolved, but then things get worse.
And I think that that's the best kind of cliffhanger.
It's like, um, Greatest Show in the Galaxy 4.
You know, there's a cliffhanger and then things just build and
build and get worse and worse and worse.
And things have rarely been quite as bad as this, I think, in
Doctor Who.
How did people feel about that sequence?
Todd.
One of the things I dislike is when you actually start killing off
everybody, because then you know there's a magical reset, and the
moment that rose and um, Kate and all of them turn to dust.
I just went, oh, so now we're going to have a reset button, right
at the end.
So I was on the back foot.
I did not buy that death at all.
If it had just been Kate by herself or something like that, then
maybe I would have thought, oh no.
But I went, oh, no.
Like, it's just going to be this reset.
I'm just, how are they going to get out of this?
Is it going to be a crap explanation?
So I was on the back foot from that for a little while.
I thought it was glorious that everybody came back, including
those poor men that were killed last week.
I just thought that was wonderful.
Everybody lives, yes.
And including Susan Triad.
I think it was great that she ended up living too.
I thought the Vlinks was definitely for it.
When the blinks got killed, I thought, oh, that's like killing
Adrick.
No, it'll care.
And then they killed everyone else.
What did you think, Simon?
Well, I was going to say, I was...
I took a little bit longer to get to the thing, oh, it's just
great. have a great big reset button because I thought it was not
entirely impossible.
He was using this as a way to kind of cleanse all of the all that
kind of unit team and go, okay, we're going to do something else
later.
But I thought, well, they're probably all coming back when they
all turned to dust, and I certainly thought that we were all
coming back as soon as it started to spread around the globe.
I mean, it is very impressive, very frightening, especially it's
not just the earth.
It's everywhere the doctor has visited in the last, you know, since
Pyramids of Mars.
He's basically effectively polluted or infected with this gift of
dust to all the universe.
So, it's, it's, look, I mean, Doctor Who has done that before
obviously, you know, whether it's logopolis or other things, like
the flux and so on, but it's never going to be overly impressive
and it's more frightening when people are picked off, you know, one
by one, but they're going for the big, big shock value and it's
certainly made for a great special effect.
So I can't really complain.
And it also actually, I think that scene where he's on the alien
planet and it's just that woman with her, you know, dead child, I
assume, uh, is very effective.
And I think this idea that there are so, for some reason, there
are a few pockets of people who have been accidentally left, but
they're on the way out anyway, and that actually kind of is the
payoff to, to everybody turning to dust at once.
Well, I like that because he doesn't mean the doctor actually
visited that planet.
It may have been spread to that planet as it suggested in the
dialogue, like eventually gets there through Susan Triad or
through space and whatever.
And I spent that whole scene going, I know this woman.
I know this woman.
And then only when I watched it again.
The penny dropped that it's Claire from Fleabag and I thought she
was tremendous and I really didn't love that scene.
Do you know, that seems to me in some ways to be an answer to the
tubital era, because that is a classic tubital era scene.
It's like Survivors of the Flux or like Ascension of the
Cyberman.
And it is kind of Russell showing A, that he can do that and make
us care about it.
And B, that the doctor's job is to fix that sort of thing rather
than just go away somewhere else at the end of the episode.
And so I just thought that was incredibly beautiful.
The details about the opera house, you know, and her husband being
tall and like all of that stuff, I just thought was so skilfully
done and the, and just that sort of the brownness of everything.
You know, the dust in the air, all of that, even the opticals of
the planets, which are all sort of shrouded in dust and things.
I just thought it was, it was really very good.
And of course, that action sequence leading up to it with the bus
and the, and the, and the chase and all of that, I thought, was
amazing.
And then suddenly we can see the money.
I mean, that's the sort of stuff.
I mean, there would obviously would have been CGI crashes in there
as well, but, you know, all those people, there would have been a
lot of extras there.
There was a lot of hardware happening.
There was a lot of crashes.
Yeah, as I said, some of it CGI, but I think there's real stuff
going on there and that costs money.
I actually think that, I mean, there's a lot being made about, you
know, shooting being emotional and they're being the odd emotional
scene here, they're everywhere throughout the season.
But I actually think that this is the only one.
That scene is the only one for me, which actually was properly
emotional.
The rest were just like, he was just an emotional scene we're
going to do.
Come on, everybody, let's feel emotional.
And you need to have more than that to actually be affected.
And I think that was the 1st time in the season where I thought
yeah, we're actually doing that that kind of scene properly for
the 1st time.
Yeah, no, I think that's a, that is an amazing, amazingly good
scene.
All right.
Let's talk about Sutek himself.
Um, and someone pointed out that in the very 1st episode of the
new series, uh, Clive identifies the doctor's constant companion
as deaf, um, and what this reminded me of is the arc. um
naturally.
Of course.
Dodo.
You remember that there's this line where the doctor suggests that
perhaps they've been infecting people wherever they've gone with
their germs and so they've been bringing germs everywhere.
Earlier in the, in the previous episode last week, the doctor said
that he brought havoc and death wherever he went and that's why he
hadn't gone back to visit Susan and, you know, Kate says, no, no, I
think you bring joy.
But, you know, the doctors fear that he brings death and
destruction and mayhem with him wherever he goes, and that's made
real by having big old Soutec crouched over the ship for the last
40 something years.
Um, how did people feel that Sutec, Sutec went and and and that
resolution, Brendan?
So I said last week that I thought, you know, within 2 minutes of
the start of this episode, he'd be a man in a suit swanning around
um, that unit set, and it wasn't.
And again, I was really impressed by the visual effects of
Soutech.
I think having, um, I think having Harriet and later Mel and Susan
Triad, Sutex Avatars, if you like, um, helped helped lend to that
as well.
It gave it a sense of scale.
But I thought the visual representation was really good.
They get a lot of emotionality out of that totally invented face.
And of course, Gabrielle Wolf has still got it.
So no complaints here.
What did you think, Tom?
I don't know.
I'm a bit on the fence with it.
Just a lot, like a big dog all the time and then the voice over
the top.
Do you know what I mean?
Like, is that...
No, I agree.
I agree.
And then I was trying to point out, well, when did he grab onto
the TARDIS in the pyramids of Mars?
Was it when he 1st the vision happened at the beginning where
Sarah saw him?
Or was it, like, because later on he's sent to his doom, like in
the future?
But the Tatars isn't in that corridor.
So I guess I got stuck in that, Brendan?
I think you're absolutely right.
And I messaged Nathan earlier saying, I've realised something
about pyramids above.
If I forget, tell me.
No, I think it is when Sarah sees Sutek at the starter pyramids of
Mars.
Remember, they're en route to Unit HQ and then they are knocked
off course back to 1911.
So I think Soutex going forward.
The TARDIS is and runs into the TARDIS and sends it backwards.
Good explanation just as you're a perfect explanation, Brendan.
It's just like your unit dating theory.
Yeah, it's the same thing with Pyramids and Mars.
So, you know, you're bringing that.
I, however, have a much more Sorry, you...
I was just going to say, my unit dating theory depends on Soutec
grabbing onto the time vortex and ripping it out of shape.
And what happens?
What happens?
Anyway, sorry, go away.
That's right.
Look, I mean, I'm a Doctor Who fan.
I'm never going to let some misused continuity get in the way of
enjoying the episode.
But look, I, for echoing what Todd was saying.
I can understand why they present Z Tech like this. you know
modern audience, modern thing. have CGI, we can do all this
stuff.
I just think, though, that there is something and, you know, we
can mock the papier mache mask from 1975, but I think if you'd
have taken that look and just done it with today's technology in
today's ability, I think, at nuances and so on, I think it would
have been much more freaky.
I mean, that mask, even now when I watch Pyramids of Mars has a
freaky devilishness to it for me.
But anyway, look, that was not going to detract. was just like, oh
this is how I would have done it instead.
I think, I mean, they love, it's like that thing that, you know
the modern era likes to try and recreate the catch lines that all
the kids were saying on the bus when very elaborate was
overhearing them.
So, you know, we have to say, I bring Sutex gifts of dust to all
the universal humanity over and over again rather than just once
which would have been much more powerful.
I think the makeup on the, on the, the minions is the most
freakish and brilliant part of it because it is relatively
understated, certainly understated compared to the way CTex
presented.
And I think the performances of those 3 actresses is immaculate
when they're being possessed.
And that does have that kind of devilish evil thing.
I'm not convinced.
I mean, I maybe I misheard things or wasn't paying attention, but
Sutech is an a siren, a race, a super advanced race that visits
ancient Egypt, and, you know, any adequately advanced technology
is indistinguishable from magic, and godlike godness.
And that's why they are worshipped as gods and they influence the
development of Egypt and the human race ultimately.
And now suddenly he's just kind of a hyper dimensional being.
Am I am I hearing that, right?
There is a line of dialogue where it's the fact that he travels
around the time vortex, you know, holding the TARDIS over all of
that time that eventually he does turn into the god that he always
imagined himself.
They could have to be.
But he imagines himself to be.
Yeah, that's a tough thing.
I, I still think, and they try and recreate it and not really
successfully, the reason that we remember Zue Tech, apart from the
cushion, obviously, is that scene with Tom.
Uh, and it's that, that scene where he, uh, you know, Tom is in
the in the pyramid with SUTEC, and he's being tortured.
And Soutec, um, says what he thinks is good.
You know, like I leave death and destruction or what, you know
wherever I go, I find that good.
And then Tom says you're an abomination in the name of sort of all
sentient creation and things.
And I think that's one of the great highlights of the classic
series.
And, you know, far better than the story that it finds itself in.
And as recently as Flux, Chibnill tried to do that with Azure as
well, she and the doctor have a similar conversation along those
lines.
And I think that's incredible and that's where you get, you know
that crisp voice of Gabriel Wolf and the incredible stillness and
Tom in pain and stuff.
I think it's one of the absolute highlights of the series.
They do try and do that in the time window with shooting and the
big old dog, but it doesn't quite land in the same way. does seem
to be just an echo of it.
That's partly because I think there's just, I mean, this is the
new series generally.
There is just not enough stillness in the new series. particularly
in this season.
It's too much going on.
It's not the way they're making it, which is unfortunate, but we
have to live with that.
I don't know about the cultural appropriation line, which is very
odd and not, I think, misplaced, but, you know, that's not
atypical of this season.
Well, I think I think it's like a throwaway and almost a comedy
line as well.
I mean, the problem with one of the big problems with pyramids of
Mars is that by modern standards, it's quite racist.
And so, you know, if he is going to bring that character in, he
has to do what he did with the toy maker, I think, and sort of
address it in some way without waiting.
I don't necessarily see that though.
Really?
Yeah, there's lots of sort of silly Egyptian. apart from Ibrahim
Nam in the beginning.
And I mean, yeah, I think they're the character.
Is that sort of thing?
But the concept of having him having influenced ancient Egypt and
basically effectively being an Egyptian god.
I don't...
It's one of those unfortunate things that, you know, if you're
going to say a line like that, let there be actual cultural
appropriation as opposed to, you know, cultural inspiration, should
we say?
I think there's cultural appropriation in the sense of taking
Egyptian culture and turning it into a hammer horror film and
probably that's what he's referring to rather than anything in
universe as such.
I think it's a metacometry.
And also, it's a quicker way for the doctor to explain to Ruby.
Well, he's actually an alien who came here and was worshipped as a
god, and that was the foundation for Egyptian culture, and da da
da.
It's cultural appropriation.
Ruby's like, oh, I know what that means.
Yeah.
But having him as the big dog was fantastic because it gave us
that wonderful moment, which I didn't actually see coming where
Ruby's going to go and show him the tablet or whatever and I'm
going, I want to know what's the name and then she drops it and
leashes him and it's like on for young and old.
I thought that was great.
The god of nothing line.
She was so magnificent.
Is that what she says?
God of nothing.
You know, she mocks him.
And then puts a leash on him and that kind of...
Yes, it's pretty great.
Some men would pay good money for that.
And I guess, you know, people are obviously going to say Deos X
Markina, because they always say that about Russell's finales
whether they have a day or sex Markina in them or not.
This one obviously has a deos in mark in our.
We had a dayos lying around, and obviously we have to use that to
solve the problem that it's created.
And so while I'm not kind of sure that, you know, death squared
equals life, whatever, I guess, it's magic and that's how we're
going to resolve it.
I kind of went, yeah, death plus death equals life, does it
really?
And just by dragging through the vortex, suddenly, by touching the
sides, he's going to just make everything on every world. okay?
I don't know.
I just I wanted a bit more explanation.
I'm okay with it, right?
I, you know, there is an explanation there.
It's just if you dig a little bit deeper, sometimes that's not as
satisfactory, but I'm not, I'm not saying I don't like it, like
there is an explanation.
I think multiply death by death rather than... exactly.
It's like the square of minus one and square of minus one is one.
Yeah, that's it.
Yeah, yeah, that's what I was going to say.
Like the 12-year-old at home has just learned in maths this week
that if you multiply a negative by a negative, you get a
positive.
And I think that's what Russell's going for.
And frankly, scientifically, it's like shoving all the IVs in the
lift shower in New Earth and you suddenly cure everything.
Okay, Russell, sure care, Russell.
But, like, yeah, I don't think, like...
Yeah.
But like you, Todd, I'm just along for the ride.
It's like, okay, that's the explanation I'm given.
Everyone in the room believes it.
Okay.
Yep, fine.
I'm along.
Yeah.
Well, I'm totally okay with him being let off the leash and then
dying in the vortex because he's no longer connected to the TARDIS
in some way.
So that I had no problem with that at all.
I think that looked great.
Yeah.
Oh, yeah, stunning.
I thought that looked good.
I mean, it's one of those things.
When you create a situation like that where the entirety of
creation is being obliterated by this dust, no way out.
There is no way out of that that's going to be either plausible or
ultimately satisfactory.
So whenever those sorts of things happen on that sort of scale, I
just kind of go, oh, you know, whatever.
I mean, I think I think we want the visuals from that.
Do you know what I mean?
I think it would be poor if the show was less ambitious if it said
well, we can't plausibly get out of this, so we'll just give
everyone a bit of a cold or something like that.
Do you know what I mean?
Like, yeah, yeah, yeah.
It's better that they sort of attempt it and then do, you know
they have a god lying around and so they use that to solve the
problem.
I think, you know, that's kind of okay.
I mean, it's just that like sort of lack of sophistication that I
alluded to earlier in the season.
That's all, it's just, and that's for me, the issue, broadly
speaking, with Russell's version of the show, is just a broad, like
a sophistication, to my taste.
It doesn't mean I can't enjoy it because the one thing that most
of this season has had, of course, isn't it's been engaging, even
if I haven't liked all of it.
What I wasn't necessarily okay with was Colonel Ibrahim and Kate
holding hands at the end.
Yes, what was that?
What was that?
Why?
Because they were dead.
In fact, it wasn't a recent button.
We fixed it.
Do you know what I mean?
Like all of that happened.
They were aware that it happened.
Yeah, where it happened.
Yeah, it's interesting that, yeah, I've I've said on a previous
episode this season, we've had some episodes of really where
they're influencers on their sleeve, and I think a big influence
with Mel slowly fading away.
And it occurred to me afterwards because, of course, we just lost
Donald Sutherland a few days ago, is the 1978 invasion of the body
snatchers where it's when you fall asleep that they get you.
And I felt like it was very much like the characters in that
version trying to stay awake.
As for the revivification, I think Russell is directly taking it
from the Avengers endgame films.
Yeah, with the snap.
Because, yeah, with the snap and with the fact that we can't
change time because it creates a paradox, therefore, we will bring
everyone back 5 years later.
And I do wonder whether we're going to explore next season the
fact that everyone in the world has been dead for 2 hours or
whatever it was and everyone remembers it on some level.
Um, because something I really liked when we had those death
scenes was out with our with our heroes and their supporters and
family and Carla and the unit people and everyone, there was a
stoicism and acceptance and sadness and I thought that Gemma
Redgrave speech about the birds was so beautifully done.
And I found myself thinking, what is it about the birds?
And then I thought back today of the doctor and she's out watching
the ravens.
And they need recharging or something.
That's right.
I thought it was great in this two-part.
Like, I don't care what people say about her.
I actually really, all the women, all the women were fabulous in
this.
And one scene that moved me to absolute tears was actually Ruby
meeting a mum and I didn't think I was going to.
I actually had tears.
So well done.
Let's talk about that because I think that so has done 4 proper
kind of full season finales and only in one of them has the
companion departed of their own free will and that's Martha.
And I think that we liked that.
I think, you know, generally speaking, we like it because she just
gets to leave on her own terms and she doesn't leave for space
reasons.
She just says, I'm kind of done here.
And that scene where she's there with a doctor and she's trying to
talk to him, but she's distracted by her phone.
Like, and it's her life.
All these changes in her life, her mother, her father, all calling
her away from him and her being torn and it's an amazing
performance by Millie.
And I think it's the right decision.
I was expecting, you know, we were all expecting her to be, you
know, some hyper intelligent pan-dimensional being or something.
And she just ends up being Millie and she just leaves on her own
terms in a normal way.
And I found it really incredibly moving.
And the bit that I liked the most was where the doctor tells her
not to go and speak to Louise and the reason he does that is he's
a foundling, and he wants them to be foundlings together, and he
fears that he'll lose her, if she finds her mother, that that's
you know, there's a little selfish moment there, um, where he
tries to persuade her out of it.
And you can see that in that final scene where he knows that he's
going to say goodbye to her because the big thing that they had in
common all this time is now gone and she has something better.
It's a little bit like, you know, Rose gets her father back at the
end of series two, you know, Millie gets her whole family back or
a new family or a, you know, an origin.
It was just all very well done.
It's interesting you say that because that's not how I read that
conversation between the doctor and Millie.
When they're outside the cafe, I mean, and how I read it is he's
listing all the reasons he still hasn't popped forward to the 22nd
century to see.
Susan.
Yeah.
But there's that too.
And then that is mentioned in that.
Well, I've seen it.
I think certainly in that last scene, there is an element of, you
know, Ruby is now moving away from him because not only has she
got the family who raised her, but she's found the family, who
created her, you know, and she, so she's surrounded by twice the
love she had before, if not more.
And I think I think there's an element in of sadness in there of
he doesn't feel needed and even feels like he might be intruding
on that.
Um, Yeah, and I, I, I just thought his his reaction to watching
them in the cafes is so lovely.
And and melancholy and heartbreaking.
It's a bit of a rebuke too, isn't it, to, you know, the way the
doctor had the watch and she just threw it away.
She decided not to investigate it and look into it.
And now he sees Ruby making a completely different decision and
starts to think, well, maybe that's what I should have done.
Um, nothing to add.
I mean, I, I, it's funny because I read it as the, at the scene
outside the cafe as the doctor was playing.
It was so that she wasn't having an internal monologue.
It was kind of, it was kind of an external version of the internal
monitor.
Should I go in there?
What if she doesn't like me?
What if she hates me?
What if she doesn't want to see it?
Basically, it's like that thing.
As soon as, as soon as she steps through the door and talks to her
there is only, you know, it'll be what it'll be and she can't, she
can't ever wonder whether, you know, if the reaction is bad, she
can't even wonder what might the reaction have been like?
you know what I mean?
I'm not expressing that right, but it's that kind of thing.
It's basically the doctor's providing the procrastination.
I just saw it as a use of a character in drama rather than
anything deeper than that, I'm afraid, but that probably says a
lot about me.
I thought it was really good casting, actually, because I
really...
I thought it was great casting, like, really?
Like, really?
Like I just couldn't believe, you know?
And just to expand on what you were saying, Nathan, about the way
she leaves is that, I mean, it's not just the space not having
space reasons.
It's the fact that a companion leaving on their own terms, which
can be for space reasons, but it's the fact that rather than the
space reasons keeping them away from the doctor because there's an
interdimensional rifter, whatever hell it is, um, it's because
they've decided, have learnt so much from you.
I've loved our time together, but I actually think I am more used
to doing this now, being basically taking everything I've learnt
from you and helping these other people here and I need to go and
add big do and be an adult over here now.
And I think that for me, that's what's most appealing.
It's funny, the space reasons, uh, things that Russell does.
He walks both of them back.
And one of them more successfully than the other.
Uh, you know, Billy gets a spare David Tennant.
Spare David Tennant, because that's...
And of course, Russell does make us wait 15 years or whatever, but
eventually we resolve the Donna thing as well.
So those are never particularly satisfactory.
We had Moffat.
Although Donna's a space reason, though.
Yeah, but she's back.
Do you know what I mean?
It's kind of like, let's not do that.
Let's actually just have her stay with another spare David
Tennant.
It's very traumatised.
It's a very trial of a time, Lord 14.
No, we shouldn't have done that.
That's a bit Moffatt does that too.
Ruby, the actress that Ruby is coming back, if not in the
Christmas special, the next year.
So they are just, unfortunately they are just going to undo it and
she's going to be left with another spare David Tennant or
something.
Oh, Simon.
That is not beyond the realms of possibility, Todd.
Exactly.
We'd all like a lot of things.
That's, that's, that was, that was exactly what I thought when I
heard Russell was coming back to produce the show.
The one thing that I was disappointed you guys didn't pick up on
last week, though, was the VHS tape and, you know, when they're in
the time portal or whatever the hell it's quite time window.
What was it called?
Someone is actually, and this is kudos to whoever looked up, looked
after this on the production, but they've actually put dropouts
and things on the VHS.
It actually looks like an enormous projected VHS tape, the kind
that's been sitting around for a long while, so there are bits
missing and there's a few jumps and so on like that.
I read that as not the fact that it was distortion because of the
time window because of the fact that it was a VHS.
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
Yeah.
Just even the quality of the image.
I thought.
Yes, yeah, yeah.
Slightly smudgy and slightly musy, you know.
Yeah.
That whole sequence.
Is that tape?
I thought there was tapes for a second.
I think this tape, oh, yeah.
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
You know, I reckon Steve Roberts was sitting at home saying, that's
what it's like.
That's what it like.
So, Brendan.
Yes.
What about your season one, season one?
Yeah, okay, right.
So we're up to the reign of terror, of course.
And look, for understandable reasons.
Everyone's quite maudlin this week.
But the big one is, in fact, related to Roger Appwilliam. who, of
course, is the prime minister.
And when the doctor turns up outside the office, He says, I was
here when he was deposed.
Well, who gets deposed at the end of Reign of Terror, but citizen
Robespierre, who the doctor had previously been to sea, but he's
not actually there when he's dragged out of the office.
So we have that.
And of course, you know, Robespierre is a complicated figure in
French historical politics, but also has a long legacy and as soon
as the doctor hears and things of the name Roger at William back
in 73 yards, he's able to sort of rattle off everything he can
do.
Whereas, you know, Harriet Jones, he had to think about it for a
few hours.
And he's like, oh, I know that name's familiar.
So, yeah, we have a significant historical figure being deposed
from office and the doctor was somehow involved.
Well known, Brendan.
I just, look, I thought the sensor rights was going to be
difficult. ended up having like 3 or four.
Well, see, this is the end of the season, and so we'll be back
this Christmas to see whether Stephen Moffat's up to writing a
Christmas special or not.
So we'll see you a couple of days after Christmas Day.
And of course, if there's any urgent spinoff that suddenly gets
released between now and then, I imagine we might be back for
that.
If you're interested in keeping up with the 2nd great and
bountiful Human Empire news.
You can follow us at FDE podcast on X or even better on Mastodon
or Blue Sky.
I'm just going to plug untitled Star Trek Project.
This Friday's episode is Angel One, the Planet of Aggressive and
Very Sexy Women, and a very, very, very important message about
feminism, which is we're not remotely interested in it here at
Star Trek the Next Generation.
Brendan, do you have things that you want to plant?
Uh, yes.
So, um, this uh, we can just go on by.
We are up to the cool war for the 3 handed game with the Avengers
and we are looking at our 1st episode of the New Avengers, which
is called Catch a Rat.
So that's at the three-handed game.
Meanwhile, over on my gaming podcast, BJ and I have gone on
holiday to play the tourist, so that you can find at the BJBJ game
show.
And so you can keep up with us at flightsorentirety.com, of course
uh, and on our website here, greatandbountiful.com, uh, or if you
have a bit more time on your hands, the 2nd great and
bountifulhuman empire.com, or even possibly Shooty summoned a
hopeful dentate harbinger.com.
Until next time, then, remember, you can wait nearly 44 years, and
finally, a Doctor Who story comes along in which the planet
Tigella is destroyed.
So never stop hoping.
Thank you very much for listening and good night.
Good night.
I can't even see Matilla Oriensis.
I'll see you soon