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This transcript was created on 2026-06-07 at 11:54:12

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Hello, dear listener, and welcome back to the 2nd great and bountiful Human Empire, the only Doctor Who flash cast that's in your TARDIS time control, killing your dudes.

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I'm Nathan.

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I'm Brendan.

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I'm Simon.

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And I'm Todd.

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So we are here to talk about Empire of Death, which we saw mere days ago, the finale to season one of this new version of Doctor Who, written by Russell T. Davis, as usual, and directed by Jamie Donahue, who did last week's episode as well.

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Let's start by just giving a kind of general feeling about how we, uh, sorry.

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Let's just start by giving a sort of general idea of how we felt about the episode.

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Simon, you're on record, I think, as saying that RTD series finales aren't quite your favourite thing.

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They tend not to be.

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How did you feel about this one?

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Look, I enjoyed it.

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I probably put it 2nd behind Bad Wolf Parting of the Ways, which is the only one that I rate in any serious way.

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I actually found myself enjoying it.

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Yes, there are some strange problems.

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Usually, though, a good sign is when you only think about those problems after you've watched it rather than while you're watching it, and I'm sure we might pick up on some of those later.

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But no, look, I think I think it was, it was fine.

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I think it actually fulfilled the promise of the previous episode.

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Usually the problem with the 2nd episode is that it disappoints what's being promised in episode one, which is actually not the problem with the classic series.

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I will acknowledge.

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But in this case, I actually think it's fulfilled that.

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Yes, it wasn't there are silly things with it, but I thought it was great.

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I thought everyone was great in it.

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I thought it was probably shooting's best performance of the season, and Bonnie, I mean, Bonnie.

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I mean, she, she, she, she, she is actually the best person in it by a significant mile.

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Um, and I include shooting in that.

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She is just better than axe rings around the rest of them, I have to say.

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What did you think, Todd?

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I agree.

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I thought it was charming.

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Bonnie Langford was just phenomenal.

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Absolutely, absolutely stole the show.

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It's funny, I think we mentioned last week that she was in DWM saying that she hadn't been very good in the show that she feared that she wasn't very good or maybe a couple of weeks ago, but she is so experienced, you know, and just so good as a result.

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And in fact, her kind of falling asleep on board the TARDIS, as if her energy's being sapped from her, is actually a little bit difficult to watch.

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It's really quite sad.

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Or the moment where she sees, you know, Colin's jacket.

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Yes.

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Oh, just touching.

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The look on her face when she's touching the... sleeve is just lovely.

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The whole episode is worth, the whole double is worth it for her alone for me.

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Yeah, yeah.

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Well, the whole revival, I think.

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What did you think, Fred?

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Um, I've said that this season I felt like every episode has bettered the previous one. and we started out in a strong place anyway.

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This is where it falls down.

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Not entirely.

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It's not a disaster.

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Um, but I was idly thinking today and I ranked the Russell T. Davies season enders and I'm like, okay.

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Yes, I saw that.

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Yeah.

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So it's like Bad Wolf Parting of the Ways, Journey's End, and last of the time, Lords, I consider them all to be 10 out of 10.

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Um, Army of Ghost Doomsday are considered to be 9 out of 10.

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This and the giggle, I consider a 7 out of 10.

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So they're still solid.

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They're still solid.

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And then you've got the end of time.

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Daylight, the end of time.

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I'm in shock, Frank.

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I'm in shock Not what I expected from you.

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Yeah.

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Now, look, I completely agree with what's been said so far.

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I think Bonnie is excellent.

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I think shoot he's amazing.

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I think the cliffhanger resolve of, oh, what if we just pull the doctor out of the way of the slow moving agent of Soutek?

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is it made me laugh in the moment.

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It's just like a proper 80s cliffhanger resolution, isn't it?

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Yeah, yeah, yeah.

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We did call that a proper 80s cliffhanger is wait.

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We did it in flux as well, I think, didn't we?

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Where we just moved quickly away from swarm at one point.

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Yeah, and look, I think most of my problems with it are sort of around explanations for why things are happening in the plot just seem to be, and it's this now, and because this is how this works.

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And I just feel like some of those more fantastical explanations we've had since Russell came back have been better handled in the past, like where gods come from and how magic works and da da da da.

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I don't know if some lines were cut out or if it was something with the direction and the vision made things clearer.

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That being said, I still very much enjoyed it.

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I don't think it's a bad or weak episode by any means.

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It's just what has come before, including last week was so good that this needed to be more explicit, in my opinion, in what it was trying to do.

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I did think there were some important moments of explanation that were actually fudged by the director.

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And in particular, I think, uh, maybe the, the reveal where Louise points to the, the lamp post and we discover it's a thing.

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I think that's actually badly done.

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I think I think that's that or whole thing and this is probably about the season rather than the episode, but I find that a bit trite. this mysterious figure pointing in a very kind of Gothic way.

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It's all, and then for it to just reveal that she's just a normal person, basically, and ends now a nurse, I think that's, that's probably the weakest thing.

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But because it didn't, it's not what the episode was about.

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That didn't bother me too much.

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See, in a way, I think it is what the episode's about, and I liked it for that reason, that it wasn't, you know, a science fiction thing, and it wasn't quite the Gothic thing that we imagined it was going to be.

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We had the rug pulled out from under us last week with the, it was 2004.

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It wasn't Charles Dickens, you know.

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And so having that very strange fairy tale thing and then just learning that in fact it was just a frightened girl abandoning her baby, you know, like I did actually like that outcome, it meant that we don't have a space reasons thing about Ruby's origin.

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She's just a person.

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I don't mind that at all.

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It's just that, like, here's this mysterious hooded figure, and she's pointing in an ominous way, and then in other episodes, Maestro's saying that there's something wrong with Ruby and her song, and I just kind of think that it just doesn't quite, 2 and 2 don't make four. you know what I mean?

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Like, I just think that's how I feel about that.

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But I don't necessarily loathe it.

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I just think that it wasn't the best, you know?

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Yeah, it's not the fact that she's a normal person. the fact that it's all the setup with all the the pointing in the robes and everything like that.

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It's just like, unless there's something next season, you know?

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Exactly.

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And that's maybe what the maestro thing was.

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It's supposed to be referring to that, but, you know, Yeah.

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And look, you know, Russell knew when he started writing this season that the next season had been commissioned.

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Right.

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So, yeah, he has made some comments in recent weeks that storylines continue next season and he's now working on season 3, which has not been officially commissioned, but he is working on it.

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Hence, the woman in Mary Tam's outfit from the rebus operation, who was previously wearing Clara's outfit from Face the Raven.

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I think she's fabulous and I thought that ending was magnificent.

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Just absolutely.

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I was actually really happy that she had nothing to do with C tech and nothing to do with it. because that was the assumption in the previous episode. and I think that that was, that was, that was pretty good.

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And she sounds really terrifying.

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She's going to go and kill God.

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I just think she's wonderful.

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Like, you know, all of her little lines.

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I had such plans for a boy and then, you know, yeah, just, yeah, yeah. in what was it?

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absolute terror.

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It was just delicious.

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Yeah, I mean, that's the thing.

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Like, I've been saying all along.

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I think she's river song, but now with some comments Russell has made this week where Russell's like, no, I deliberately put in red herrings, because I know fans are going to talk about them.

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Um, it's like, okay, her name is based on water, she's wearing Romana's coat.

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She's got a parasol on a roof.

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She's got a suitcase that I thought said trends of law, but it actually says Penzance.

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So it's like where it's being hinted that she is Romana River song at Clara.

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She none of them.

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Oh, there was a hint she was Susan last week, too, remember?

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And yeah, and she was Susan, of course.

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Yes.

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Yeah, but yeah, I've now decided she's none of them.

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No, she's Chancellor Flavia.

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Well, you know Russell loves Chancellor Flavia, so that's entirely a possibility.

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You know, I just, I just loved, like, I love the call back to 73 yards and I love the memory TARDIS.

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I loved that and all the little things to do with the past in that.

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You know, I just thought it was really beautiful, so much of it, you know?

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Do we know if they built the memory Tartars for this and then decided to do all of the tales from the Tartars?

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Yeah, right.

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So it was that way round rather than, yeah.

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So yeah, we'll get to that in a minute because I think that that plays an important role in the episode, obviously.

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But let's just talk about how it begins because the cliffhanger is resolved, but then things get worse.

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And I think that that's the best kind of cliffhanger.

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It's like, um, Greatest Show in the Galaxy 4.

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You know, there's a cliffhanger and then things just build and build and get worse and worse and worse.

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And things have rarely been quite as bad as this, I think, in Doctor Who.

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How did people feel about that sequence?

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Todd.

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One of the things I dislike is when you actually start killing off everybody, because then you know there's a magical reset, and the moment that rose and um, Kate and all of them turn to dust.

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I just went, oh, so now we're going to have a reset button, right, at the end.

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So I was on the back foot.

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I did not buy that death at all.

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If it had just been Kate by herself or something like that, then maybe I would have thought, oh no.

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But I went, oh, no.

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Like, it's just going to be this reset.

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I'm just, how are they going to get out of this?

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Is it going to be a crap explanation?

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So I was on the back foot from that for a little while.

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I thought it was glorious that everybody came back, including those poor men that were killed last week.

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I just thought that was wonderful.

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Everybody lives, yes.

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And including Susan Triad.

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I think it was great that she ended up living too.

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I thought the Vlinks was definitely for it.

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When the blinks got killed, I thought, oh, that's like killing Adrick.

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No, it'll care.

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And then they killed everyone else.

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What did you think, Simon?

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Well, I was going to say, I was...

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I took a little bit longer to get to the thing, oh, it's just great. have a great big reset button because I thought it was not entirely impossible.

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He was using this as a way to kind of cleanse all of the all that kind of unit team and go, okay, we're going to do something else later.

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But I thought, well, they're probably all coming back when they all turned to dust, and I certainly thought that we were all coming back as soon as it started to spread around the globe.

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I mean, it is very impressive, very frightening, especially it's not just the earth.

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It's everywhere the doctor has visited in the last, you know, since Pyramids of Mars.

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He's basically effectively polluted or infected with this gift of dust to all the universe.

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So, it's, it's, look, I mean, Doctor Who has done that before, obviously, you know, whether it's logopolis or other things, like the flux and so on, but it's never going to be overly impressive and it's more frightening when people are picked off, you know, one by one, but they're going for the big, big shock value and it's certainly made for a great special effect.

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So I can't really complain.

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And it also actually, I think that scene where he's on the alien planet and it's just that woman with her, you know, dead child, I assume, uh, is very effective.

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And I think this idea that there are so, for some reason, there are a few pockets of people who have been accidentally left, but they're on the way out anyway, and that actually kind of is the payoff to, to everybody turning to dust at once.

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Well, I like that because he doesn't mean the doctor actually visited that planet.

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It may have been spread to that planet as it suggested in the dialogue, like eventually gets there through Susan Triad or through space and whatever.

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And I spent that whole scene going, I know this woman.

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I know this woman.

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I know this woman.

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And then only when I watched it again.

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The penny dropped that it's Claire from Fleabag and I thought she was tremendous and I really didn't love that scene.

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Do you know, that seems to me in some ways to be an answer to the tubital era, because that is a classic tubital era scene.

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It's like Survivors of the Flux or like Ascension of the Cyberman.

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And it is kind of Russell showing A, that he can do that and make us care about it.

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And B, that the doctor's job is to fix that sort of thing rather than just go away somewhere else at the end of the episode.

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And so I just thought that was incredibly beautiful.

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The details about the opera house, you know, and her husband being tall and like all of that stuff, I just thought was so skilfully done and the, and just that sort of the brownness of everything.

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You know, the dust in the air, all of that, even the opticals of the planets, which are all sort of shrouded in dust and things.

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I just thought it was, it was really very good.

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And of course, that action sequence leading up to it with the bus and the, and the, and the chase and all of that, I thought, was amazing.

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And then suddenly we can see the money.

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I mean, that's the sort of stuff.

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I mean, there would obviously would have been CGI crashes in there as well, but, you know, all those people, there would have been a lot of extras there.

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There was a lot of hardware happening.

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There was a lot of crashes.

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Yeah, as I said, some of it CGI, but I think there's real stuff going on there and that costs money.

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I actually think that, I mean, there's a lot being made about, you know, shooting being emotional and they're being the odd emotional scene here, they're everywhere throughout the season.

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But I actually think that this is the only one.

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That scene is the only one for me, which actually was properly emotional.

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The rest were just like, he was just an emotional scene we're going to do.

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Come on, everybody, let's feel emotional.

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And you need to have more than that to actually be affected.

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And I think that was the 1st time in the season where I thought, yeah, we're actually doing that that kind of scene properly for the 1st time.

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Yeah, no, I think that's a, that is an amazing, amazingly good scene.

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All right.

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Let's talk about Sutek himself.

204
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Um, and someone pointed out that in the very 1st episode of the new series, uh, Clive identifies the doctor's constant companion as deaf, um, and what this reminded me of is the arc. um naturally.

205
00:15:14.100 --> 00:15:15.419
Of course.

206
00:15:15.899 --> 00:15:17.580
Dodo.

207
00:15:17.820 --> 00:15:28.559
You remember that there's this line where the doctor suggests that perhaps they've been infecting people wherever they've gone with their germs and so they've been bringing germs everywhere.

208
00:15:28.559 --> 00:15:46.620
Earlier in the, in the previous episode last week, the doctor said that he brought havoc and death wherever he went and that's why he hadn't gone back to visit Susan and, you know, Kate says, no, no, I think you bring joy.

209
00:15:46.679 --> 00:16:04.440
But, you know, the doctors fear that he brings death and destruction and mayhem with him wherever he goes, and that's made real by having big old Soutec crouched over the ship for the last 40 something years.

210
00:16:04.500 --> 00:16:12.960
Um, how did people feel that Sutec, Sutec went and and and that resolution, Brendan?

211
00:16:13.320 --> 00:16:25.679
So I said last week that I thought, you know, within 2 minutes of the start of this episode, he'd be a man in a suit swanning around, um, that unit set, and it wasn't.

212
00:16:26.159 --> 00:16:32.220
And again, I was really impressed by the visual effects of Soutech.

213
00:16:32.279 --> 00:16:45.299
I think having, um, I think having Harriet and later Mel and Susan Triad, Sutex Avatars, if you like, um, helped helped lend to that as well.

214
00:16:45.360 --> 00:16:46.559
It gave it a sense of scale.

215
00:16:46.620 --> 00:16:51.120
But I thought the visual representation was really good.

216
00:16:51.179 --> 00:16:57.659
They get a lot of emotionality out of that totally invented face.

217
00:16:57.720 --> 00:17:00.360
And of course, Gabrielle Wolf has still got it.

218
00:17:00.419 --> 00:17:02.220
So no complaints here.

219
00:17:02.820 --> 00:17:04.859
What did you think, Tom?

220
00:17:04.920 --> 00:17:06.059
I don't know.

221
00:17:06.119 --> 00:17:07.380
I'm a bit on the fence with it.

222
00:17:07.619 --> 00:17:12.539
Just a lot, like a big dog all the time and then the voice over the top.

223
00:17:12.599 --> 00:17:13.259
Do you know what I mean?

224
00:17:14.099 --> 00:17:16.079
Like, is that...

225
00:17:16.079 --> 00:17:16.740
No, I agree.

226
00:17:16.799 --> 00:17:17.160
I agree.

227
00:17:17.220 --> 00:17:22.740
And then I was trying to point out, well, when did he grab onto the TARDIS in the pyramids of Mars?

228
00:17:22.799 --> 00:17:26.640
Was it when he 1st the vision happened at the beginning where Sarah saw him?

229
00:17:26.640 --> 00:17:30.900
Or was it, like, because later on he's sent to his doom, like in the future?

230
00:17:30.960 --> 00:17:32.700
But the Tatars isn't in that corridor.

231
00:17:32.759 --> 00:17:35.099
So I guess I got stuck in that, Brendan?

232
00:17:35.160 --> 00:17:37.200
I think you're absolutely right.

233
00:17:37.259 --> 00:17:40.980
And I messaged Nathan earlier saying, I've realised something about pyramids above.

234
00:17:41.039 --> 00:17:42.420
If I forget, tell me.

235
00:17:42.480 --> 00:17:47.759
No, I think it is when Sarah sees Sutek at the starter pyramids of Mars.

236
00:17:47.819 --> 00:17:53.220
Remember, they're en route to Unit HQ and then they are knocked off course back to 1911.

237
00:17:53.400 --> 00:17:55.440
So I think Soutex going forward.

238
00:17:55.500 --> 00:17:59.160
The TARDIS is and runs into the TARDIS and sends it backwards.

239
00:17:59.700 --> 00:18:04.019
Good explanation just as you're a perfect explanation, Brendan.

240
00:18:04.079 --> 00:18:05.460
It's just like your unit dating theory.

241
00:18:05.519 --> 00:18:07.500
Yeah, it's the same thing with Pyramids and Mars.

242
00:18:07.559 --> 00:18:08.940
So, you know, you're bringing that.

243
00:18:09.000 --> 00:18:10.920
I, however, have a much more Sorry, you...

244
00:18:10.920 --> 00:18:17.940
I was just going to say, my unit dating theory depends on Soutec grabbing onto the time vortex and ripping it out of shape.

245
00:18:18.000 --> 00:18:18.539
And what happens?

246
00:18:18.599 --> 00:18:19.500
What happens?

247
00:18:19.619 --> 00:18:21.539
Anyway, sorry, go away.

248
00:18:21.599 --> 00:18:22.680
That's right.

249
00:18:22.740 --> 00:18:25.140
Look, I mean, I'm a Doctor Who fan.

250
00:18:25.200 --> 00:18:29.460
I'm never going to let some misused continuity get in the way of enjoying the episode.

251
00:18:29.519 --> 00:18:33.480
But look, I, for echoing what Todd was saying.

252
00:18:33.539 --> 00:18:38.339
I can understand why they present Z Tech like this. you know, modern audience, modern thing. have CGI, we can do all this stuff.

253
00:18:38.400 --> 00:18:55.440
I just think, though, that there is something and, you know, we can mock the papier mache mask from 1975, but I think if you'd have taken that look and just done it with today's technology in today's ability, I think, at nuances and so on, I think it would have been much more freaky.

254
00:18:55.500 --> 00:19:01.680
I mean, that mask, even now when I watch Pyramids of Mars has a freaky devilishness to it for me.

255
00:19:01.859 --> 00:19:08.279
But anyway, look, that was not going to detract. was just like, oh, this is how I would have done it instead.

256
00:19:08.339 --> 00:19:17.460
I think, I mean, they love, it's like that thing that, you know, the modern era likes to try and recreate the catch lines that all the kids were saying on the bus when very elaborate was overhearing them.

257
00:19:17.519 --> 00:19:26.099
So, you know, we have to say, I bring Sutex gifts of dust to all the universal humanity over and over again rather than just once, which would have been much more powerful.

258
00:19:26.160 --> 00:19:37.559
I think the makeup on the, on the, the minions is the most freakish and brilliant part of it because it is relatively understated, certainly understated compared to the way CTex presented.

259
00:19:37.619 --> 00:19:43.440
And I think the performances of those 3 actresses is immaculate when they're being possessed.

260
00:19:43.440 --> 00:19:45.539
And that does have that kind of devilish evil thing.

261
00:19:45.599 --> 00:19:46.799
I'm not convinced.

262
00:19:46.859 --> 00:20:03.119
I mean, I maybe I misheard things or wasn't paying attention, but Sutech is an a siren, a race, a super advanced race that visits ancient Egypt, and, you know, any adequately advanced technology is indistinguishable from magic, and godlike godness.

263
00:20:03.180 --> 00:20:09.660
And that's why they are worshipped as gods and they influence the development of Egypt and the human race ultimately.

264
00:20:09.720 --> 00:20:13.500
And now suddenly he's just kind of a hyper dimensional being.

265
00:20:13.559 --> 00:20:14.819
Am I am I hearing that, right?

266
00:20:14.880 --> 00:20:29.700
There is a line of dialogue where it's the fact that he travels around the time vortex, you know, holding the TARDIS over all of that time that eventually he does turn into the god that he always imagined himself.

267
00:20:29.759 --> 00:20:30.240
They could have to be.

268
00:20:30.299 --> 00:20:31.740
But he imagines himself to be.

269
00:20:31.799 --> 00:20:33.420
Yeah, that's a tough thing.

270
00:20:33.480 --> 00:20:48.359
I, I still think, and they try and recreate it and not really successfully, the reason that we remember Zue Tech, apart from the cushion, obviously, is that scene with Tom.

271
00:20:48.420 --> 00:21:00.180
Uh, and it's that, that scene where he, uh, you know, Tom is in the in the pyramid with SUTEC, and he's being tortured.

272
00:21:00.240 --> 00:21:04.140
And Soutec, um, says what he thinks is good.

273
00:21:04.200 --> 00:21:08.880
You know, like I leave death and destruction or what, you know, wherever I go, I find that good.

274
00:21:08.940 --> 00:21:13.980
And then Tom says you're an abomination in the name of sort of all sentient creation and things.

275
00:21:14.039 --> 00:21:17.279
And I think that's one of the great highlights of the classic series.

276
00:21:17.339 --> 00:21:21.299
And, you know, far better than the story that it finds itself in.

277
00:21:21.359 --> 00:21:31.140
And as recently as Flux, Chibnill tried to do that with Azure as well, she and the doctor have a similar conversation along those lines.

278
00:21:31.200 --> 00:21:39.960
And I think that's incredible and that's where you get, you know, that crisp voice of Gabriel Wolf and the incredible stillness and Tom in pain and stuff.

279
00:21:40.019 --> 00:21:42.359
I think it's one of the absolute highlights of the series.

280
00:21:42.420 --> 00:21:51.960
They do try and do that in the time window with shooting and the big old dog, but it doesn't quite land in the same way. does seem to be just an echo of it.

281
00:21:52.019 --> 00:21:55.319
That's partly because I think there's just, I mean, this is the new series generally.

282
00:21:55.380 --> 00:21:59.220
There is just not enough stillness in the new series. particularly in this season.

283
00:21:59.279 --> 00:22:00.240
It's too much going on.

284
00:22:00.299 --> 00:22:03.839
It's not the way they're making it, which is unfortunate, but we have to live with that.

285
00:22:03.900 --> 00:22:10.380
I don't know about the cultural appropriation line, which is very odd and not, I think, misplaced, but, you know, that's not atypical of this season.

286
00:22:10.440 --> 00:22:15.240
Well, I think I think it's like a throwaway and almost a comedy line as well.

287
00:22:15.299 --> 00:22:21.900
I mean, the problem with one of the big problems with pyramids of Mars is that by modern standards, it's quite racist.

288
00:22:21.900 --> 00:22:31.380
And so, you know, if he is going to bring that character in, he has to do what he did with the toy maker, I think, and sort of address it in some way without waiting.

289
00:22:31.740 --> 00:22:34.140
I don't necessarily see that though.

290
00:22:34.200 --> 00:22:34.859
Really?

291
00:22:34.920 --> 00:22:39.900
Yeah, there's lots of sort of silly Egyptian. apart from Ibrahim Nam in the beginning.

292
00:22:39.960 --> 00:22:42.839
And I mean, yeah, I think they're the character.

293
00:22:42.900 --> 00:22:43.380
Is that sort of thing?

294
00:22:43.440 --> 00:22:48.960
But the concept of having him having influenced ancient Egypt and basically effectively being an Egyptian god.

295
00:22:49.019 --> 00:22:50.039
I don't...

296
00:22:50.039 --> 00:23:00.839
It's one of those unfortunate things that, you know, if you're going to say a line like that, let there be actual cultural appropriation as opposed to, you know, cultural inspiration, should we say?

297
00:23:00.900 --> 00:23:11.640
I think there's cultural appropriation in the sense of taking Egyptian culture and turning it into a hammer horror film and probably that's what he's referring to rather than anything in universe as such.

298
00:23:11.700 --> 00:23:13.019
I think it's a metacometry.

299
00:23:13.079 --> 00:23:16.740
And also, it's a quicker way for the doctor to explain to Ruby.

300
00:23:16.799 --> 00:23:23.099
Well, he's actually an alien who came here and was worshipped as a god, and that was the foundation for Egyptian culture, and da da da.

301
00:23:23.160 --> 00:23:24.420
It's cultural appropriation.

302
00:23:24.480 --> 00:23:26.279
Ruby's like, oh, I know what that means.

303
00:23:26.339 --> 00:23:26.640
Yeah.

304
00:23:27.660 --> 00:23:44.220
But having him as the big dog was fantastic because it gave us that wonderful moment, which I didn't actually see coming where Ruby's going to go and show him the tablet or whatever and I'm going, I want to know what's the name and then she drops it and leashes him and it's like on for young and old.

305
00:23:44.279 --> 00:23:44.819
I thought that was great.

306
00:23:44.940 --> 00:23:46.740
The god of nothing line.

307
00:23:46.799 --> 00:23:48.119
She was so magnificent.

308
00:23:48.180 --> 00:23:49.079
Is that what she says?

309
00:23:49.200 --> 00:23:49.980
God of nothing.

310
00:23:50.039 --> 00:23:51.599
You know, she mocks him.

311
00:23:51.660 --> 00:23:55.559
And then puts a leash on him and that kind of...

312
00:23:55.619 --> 00:23:56.880
Yes, it's pretty great.

313
00:23:56.940 --> 00:23:58.799
Some men would pay good money for that.

314
00:24:00.839 --> 00:24:12.720
And I guess, you know, people are obviously going to say Deos X Markina, because they always say that about Russell's finales, whether they have a day or sex Markina in them or not.

315
00:24:12.779 --> 00:24:15.539
This one obviously has a deos in mark in our.

316
00:24:15.599 --> 00:24:22.200
We had a dayos lying around, and obviously we have to use that to solve the problem that it's created.

317
00:24:22.259 --> 00:24:32.039
And so while I'm not kind of sure that, you know, death squared equals life, whatever, I guess, it's magic and that's how we're going to resolve it.

318
00:24:32.220 --> 00:24:36.779
I kind of went, yeah, death plus death equals life, does it really?

319
00:24:36.839 --> 00:24:44.279
And just by dragging through the vortex, suddenly, by touching the sides, he's going to just make everything on every world. okay?

320
00:24:44.339 --> 00:24:44.940
I don't know.

321
00:24:45.059 --> 00:24:47.880
I just I wanted a bit more explanation.

322
00:24:47.940 --> 00:24:49.079
I'm okay with it, right?

323
00:24:49.140 --> 00:24:51.960
I, you know, there is an explanation there.

324
00:24:52.019 --> 00:25:01.559
It's just if you dig a little bit deeper, sometimes that's not as satisfactory, but I'm not, I'm not saying I don't like it, like there is an explanation.

325
00:25:01.619 --> 00:25:06.059
I think multiply death by death rather than... exactly.

326
00:25:06.119 --> 00:25:08.759
It's like the square of minus one and square of minus one is one.

327
00:25:08.819 --> 00:25:09.599
Yeah, that's it.

328
00:25:09.660 --> 00:25:11.579
Yeah, yeah, that's what I was going to say.

329
00:25:11.640 --> 00:25:18.240
Like the 12-year-old at home has just learned in maths this week that if you multiply a negative by a negative, you get a positive.

330
00:25:18.299 --> 00:25:20.700
And I think that's what Russell's going for.

331
00:25:20.759 --> 00:25:29.160
And frankly, scientifically, it's like shoving all the IVs in the lift shower in New Earth and you suddenly cure everything.

332
00:25:29.220 --> 00:25:31.619
Okay, Russell, sure care, Russell.

333
00:25:31.680 --> 00:25:36.000
But, like, yeah, I don't think, like...

334
00:25:36.000 --> 00:25:36.359
Yeah.

335
00:25:36.420 --> 00:25:39.900
But like you, Todd, I'm just along for the ride.

336
00:25:39.960 --> 00:25:41.880
It's like, okay, that's the explanation I'm given.

337
00:25:41.940 --> 00:25:44.759
Everyone in the room believes it.

338
00:25:44.819 --> 00:25:45.240
Okay.

339
00:25:45.299 --> 00:25:46.559
Yep, fine.

340
00:25:46.619 --> 00:25:47.519
I'm along.

341
00:25:47.579 --> 00:25:48.000
Yeah.

342
00:25:48.059 --> 00:25:54.599
Well, I'm totally okay with him being let off the leash and then dying in the vortex because he's no longer connected to the TARDIS in some way.

343
00:25:54.660 --> 00:25:57.000
So that I had no problem with that at all.

344
00:25:57.059 --> 00:25:58.440
I think that looked great.

345
00:25:58.500 --> 00:25:59.220
Yeah.

346
00:25:59.279 --> 00:26:00.480
Oh, yeah, stunning.

347
00:26:00.539 --> 00:26:01.440
I thought that looked good.

348
00:26:01.500 --> 00:26:02.400
I mean, it's one of those things.

349
00:26:02.460 --> 00:26:10.920
When you create a situation like that where the entirety of creation is being obliterated by this dust, no way out.

350
00:26:10.980 --> 00:26:15.539
There is no way out of that that's going to be either plausible or ultimately satisfactory.

351
00:26:15.599 --> 00:26:21.000
So whenever those sorts of things happen on that sort of scale, I just kind of go, oh, you know, whatever.

352
00:26:21.299 --> 00:26:25.019
I mean, I think I think we want the visuals from that.

353
00:26:25.079 --> 00:26:26.160
Do you know what I mean?

354
00:26:26.220 --> 00:26:33.839
I think it would be poor if the show was less ambitious if it said, well, we can't plausibly get out of this, so we'll just give everyone a bit of a cold or something like that.

355
00:26:33.900 --> 00:26:34.559
Do you know what I mean?

356
00:26:34.619 --> 00:26:36.420
Like, yeah, yeah, yeah.

357
00:26:36.420 --> 00:26:43.500
It's better that they sort of attempt it and then do, you know, they have a god lying around and so they use that to solve the problem.

358
00:26:43.559 --> 00:26:46.319
I think, you know, that's kind of okay.

359
00:26:47.220 --> 00:26:52.200
I mean, it's just that like sort of lack of sophistication that I alluded to earlier in the season.

360
00:26:52.259 --> 00:27:00.960
That's all, it's just, and that's for me, the issue, broadly speaking, with Russell's version of the show, is just a broad, like a sophistication, to my taste.

361
00:27:01.019 --> 00:27:07.680
It doesn't mean I can't enjoy it because the one thing that most of this season has had, of course, isn't it's been engaging, even if I haven't liked all of it.

362
00:27:08.099 --> 00:27:14.220
What I wasn't necessarily okay with was Colonel Ibrahim and Kate holding hands at the end.

363
00:27:14.279 --> 00:27:15.539
Yes, what was that?

364
00:27:15.599 --> 00:27:16.440
What was that?

365
00:27:16.500 --> 00:27:16.980
Why?

366
00:27:17.039 --> 00:27:18.599
Because they were dead.

367
00:27:18.720 --> 00:27:20.279
In fact, it wasn't a recent button.

368
00:27:20.339 --> 00:27:21.000
We fixed it.

369
00:27:21.059 --> 00:27:21.960
Do you know what I mean?

370
00:27:22.019 --> 00:27:23.460
Like all of that happened.

371
00:27:23.579 --> 00:27:25.980
They were aware that it happened.

372
00:27:26.039 --> 00:27:27.480
Yeah, where it happened.

373
00:27:27.539 --> 00:27:41.640
Yeah, it's interesting that, yeah, I've I've said on a previous episode this season, we've had some episodes of really where they're influencers on their sleeve, and I think a big influence with Mel slowly fading away.

374
00:27:42.779 --> 00:27:52.380
And it occurred to me afterwards because, of course, we just lost Donald Sutherland a few days ago, is the 1978 invasion of the body snatchers where it's when you fall asleep that they get you.

375
00:27:52.440 --> 00:28:00.119
And I felt like it was very much like the characters in that version trying to stay awake.

376
00:28:00.180 --> 00:28:07.920
As for the revivification, I think Russell is directly taking it from the Avengers endgame films.

377
00:28:08.400 --> 00:28:10.259
Yeah, with the snap.

378
00:28:10.319 --> 00:28:19.319
Because, yeah, with the snap and with the fact that we can't change time because it creates a paradox, therefore, we will bring everyone back 5 years later.

379
00:28:19.319 --> 00:28:33.720
And I do wonder whether we're going to explore next season the fact that everyone in the world has been dead for 2 hours or whatever it was and everyone remembers it on some level.

380
00:28:33.779 --> 00:28:57.839
Um, because something I really liked when we had those death scenes was out with our with our heroes and their supporters and family and Carla and the unit people and everyone, there was a stoicism and acceptance and sadness and I thought that Gemma Redgrave speech about the birds was so beautifully done.

381
00:28:57.900 --> 00:29:00.599
And I found myself thinking, what is it about the birds?

382
00:29:00.660 --> 00:29:03.900
And then I thought back today of the doctor and she's out watching the ravens.

383
00:29:03.900 --> 00:29:06.960
And they need recharging or something.

384
00:29:07.019 --> 00:29:08.640
That's right.

385
00:29:08.700 --> 00:29:11.099
I thought it was great in this two-part.

386
00:29:11.160 --> 00:29:12.660
Like, I don't care what people say about her.

387
00:29:12.720 --> 00:29:18.779
I actually really, all the women, all the women were fabulous in this.

388
00:29:18.839 --> 00:29:24.779
And one scene that moved me to absolute tears was actually Ruby meeting a mum and I didn't think I was going to.

389
00:29:24.839 --> 00:29:26.220
I actually had tears.

390
00:29:26.339 --> 00:29:27.599
So well done.

391
00:29:27.660 --> 00:29:44.099
Let's talk about that because I think that so has done 4 proper kind of full season finales and only in one of them has the companion departed of their own free will and that's Martha.

392
00:29:44.160 --> 00:29:47.160
And I think that we liked that.

393
00:29:47.220 --> 00:29:53.640
I think, you know, generally speaking, we like it because she just gets to leave on her own terms and she doesn't leave for space reasons.

394
00:29:53.700 --> 00:29:55.559
She just says, I'm kind of done here.

395
00:29:55.619 --> 00:30:01.619
And that scene where she's there with a doctor and she's trying to talk to him, but she's distracted by her phone.

396
00:30:01.619 --> 00:30:04.859
Like, and it's her life.

397
00:30:04.920 --> 00:30:14.400
All these changes in her life, her mother, her father, all calling her away from him and her being torn and it's an amazing performance by Millie.

398
00:30:14.519 --> 00:30:16.680
And I think it's the right decision.

399
00:30:16.740 --> 00:30:24.420
I was expecting, you know, we were all expecting her to be, you know, some hyper intelligent pan-dimensional being or something.

400
00:30:24.480 --> 00:30:31.680
And she just ends up being Millie and she just leaves on her own terms in a normal way.

401
00:30:31.799 --> 00:30:35.640
And I found it really incredibly moving.

402
00:30:35.700 --> 00:31:00.420
And the bit that I liked the most was where the doctor tells her not to go and speak to Louise and the reason he does that is he's a foundling, and he wants them to be foundlings together, and he fears that he'll lose her, if she finds her mother, that that's, you know, there's a little selfish moment there, um, where he tries to persuade her out of it.

403
00:31:00.480 --> 00:31:12.359
And you can see that in that final scene where he knows that he's going to say goodbye to her because the big thing that they had in common all this time is now gone and she has something better.

404
00:31:12.420 --> 00:31:22.619
It's a little bit like, you know, Rose gets her father back at the end of series two, you know, Millie gets her whole family back or a new family or a, you know, an origin.

405
00:31:22.680 --> 00:31:25.140
It was just all very well done.

406
00:31:25.740 --> 00:31:32.339
It's interesting you say that because that's not how I read that conversation between the doctor and Millie.

407
00:31:32.400 --> 00:31:42.480
When they're outside the cafe, I mean, and how I read it is he's listing all the reasons he still hasn't popped forward to the 22nd century to see.

408
00:31:42.599 --> 00:31:43.200
Susan.

409
00:31:43.200 --> 00:31:43.500
Yeah.

410
00:31:43.559 --> 00:31:44.400
But there's that too.

411
00:31:44.460 --> 00:31:46.799
And then that is mentioned in that.

412
00:31:46.859 --> 00:31:47.640
Well, I've seen it.

413
00:31:47.700 --> 00:32:06.839
I think certainly in that last scene, there is an element of, you know, Ruby is now moving away from him because not only has she got the family who raised her, but she's found the family, who created her, you know, and she, so she's surrounded by twice the love she had before, if not more.

414
00:32:06.900 --> 00:32:16.019
And I think I think there's an element in of sadness in there of he doesn't feel needed and even feels like he might be intruding on that.

415
00:32:16.079 --> 00:32:23.519
Um, Yeah, and I, I, I just thought his his reaction to watching them in the cafes is so lovely.

416
00:32:23.640 --> 00:32:27.000
And and melancholy and heartbreaking.

417
00:32:27.059 --> 00:32:34.619
It's a bit of a rebuke too, isn't it, to, you know, the way the doctor had the watch and she just threw it away.

418
00:32:34.680 --> 00:32:37.920
She decided not to investigate it and look into it.

419
00:32:37.920 --> 00:32:46.259
And now he sees Ruby making a completely different decision and starts to think, well, maybe that's what I should have done.

420
00:32:46.380 --> 00:32:48.539
Um, nothing to add.

421
00:32:48.599 --> 00:32:54.119
I mean, I, I, it's funny because I read it as the, at the scene, outside the cafe as the doctor was playing.

422
00:32:54.180 --> 00:32:57.420
It was so that she wasn't having an internal monologue.

423
00:32:57.480 --> 00:32:59.700
It was kind of, it was kind of an external version of the internal monitor.

424
00:32:59.759 --> 00:33:00.660
Should I go in there?

425
00:33:00.779 --> 00:33:01.619
What if she doesn't like me?

426
00:33:01.680 --> 00:33:02.160
What if she hates me?

427
00:33:02.220 --> 00:33:03.000
What if she doesn't want to see it?

428
00:33:03.059 --> 00:33:04.259
Basically, it's like that thing.

429
00:33:04.259 --> 00:33:17.339
As soon as, as soon as she steps through the door and talks to her, there is only, you know, it'll be what it'll be and she can't, she can't ever wonder whether, you know, if the reaction is bad, she can't even wonder what might the reaction have been like?

430
00:33:17.400 --> 00:33:17.880
you know what I mean?

431
00:33:17.940 --> 00:33:19.680
I'm not expressing that right, but it's that kind of thing.

432
00:33:19.740 --> 00:33:22.859
It's basically the doctor's providing the procrastination.

433
00:33:22.920 --> 00:33:29.880
I just saw it as a use of a character in drama rather than anything deeper than that, I'm afraid, but that probably says a lot about me.

434
00:33:31.440 --> 00:33:35.759
I thought it was really good casting, actually, because I really...

435
00:33:35.759 --> 00:33:38.279
I thought it was great casting, like, really?

436
00:33:38.279 --> 00:33:39.180
Like, really?

437
00:33:39.240 --> 00:33:41.519
Like I just couldn't believe, you know?

438
00:33:41.579 --> 00:33:47.819
And just to expand on what you were saying, Nathan, about the way she leaves is that, I mean, it's not just the space not having space reasons.

439
00:33:47.880 --> 00:34:02.400
It's the fact that a companion leaving on their own terms, which can be for space reasons, but it's the fact that rather than the space reasons keeping them away from the doctor because there's an interdimensional rifter, whatever hell it is, um, it's because they've decided, have learnt so much from you.

440
00:34:02.460 --> 00:34:14.039
I've loved our time together, but I actually think I am more used to doing this now, being basically taking everything I've learnt from you and helping these other people here and I need to go and add big do and be an adult over here now.

441
00:34:14.039 --> 00:34:17.219
And I think that for me, that's what's most appealing.

442
00:34:17.280 --> 00:34:22.320
It's funny, the space reasons, uh, things that Russell does.

443
00:34:22.380 --> 00:34:23.579
He walks both of them back.

444
00:34:23.639 --> 00:34:26.760
And one of them more successfully than the other.

445
00:34:26.880 --> 00:34:30.480
Uh, you know, Billy gets a spare David Tennant.

446
00:34:30.539 --> 00:34:33.840
Spare David Tennant, because that's...

447
00:34:33.900 --> 00:34:40.920
And of course, Russell does make us wait 15 years or whatever, but eventually we resolve the Donna thing as well.

448
00:34:40.980 --> 00:34:43.739
So those are never particularly satisfactory.

449
00:34:43.800 --> 00:34:44.639
We had Moffat.

450
00:34:44.699 --> 00:34:45.960
Although Donna's a space reason, though.

451
00:34:46.079 --> 00:34:47.519
Yeah, but she's back.

452
00:34:47.579 --> 00:34:48.239
Do you know what I mean?

453
00:34:48.300 --> 00:34:49.739
It's kind of like, let's not do that.

454
00:34:49.800 --> 00:34:54.420
Let's actually just have her stay with another spare David Tennant.

455
00:34:54.599 --> 00:34:56.699
It's very traumatised.

456
00:34:56.760 --> 00:34:58.800
It's a very trial of a time, Lord 14.

457
00:34:59.579 --> 00:35:03.300
No, we shouldn't have done that.

458
00:35:03.360 --> 00:35:05.820
That's a bit Moffatt does that too.

459
00:35:05.880 --> 00:35:10.440
Ruby, the actress that Ruby is coming back, if not in the Christmas special, the next year.

460
00:35:10.500 --> 00:35:15.900
So they are just, unfortunately they are just going to undo it and she's going to be left with another spare David Tennant or something.

461
00:35:17.460 --> 00:35:19.260
Oh, Simon.

462
00:35:19.320 --> 00:35:21.719
That is not beyond the realms of possibility, Todd.

463
00:35:21.780 --> 00:35:22.380
Exactly.

464
00:35:22.380 --> 00:35:26.159
We'd all like a lot of things.

465
00:35:28.980 --> 00:35:34.980
That's, that's, that was, that was exactly what I thought when I heard Russell was coming back to produce the show.

466
00:35:38.039 --> 00:35:46.920
The one thing that I was disappointed you guys didn't pick up on last week, though, was the VHS tape and, you know, when they're in the time portal or whatever the hell it's quite time window.

467
00:35:46.980 --> 00:35:47.519
What was it called?

468
00:35:47.760 --> 00:35:56.820
Someone is actually, and this is kudos to whoever looked up, looked after this on the production, but they've actually put dropouts and things on the VHS.

469
00:35:56.880 --> 00:36:04.619
It actually looks like an enormous projected VHS tape, the kind that's been sitting around for a long while, so there are bits missing and there's a few jumps and so on like that.

470
00:36:04.679 --> 00:36:10.739
I read that as not the fact that it was distortion because of the time window because of the fact that it was a VHS.

471
00:36:10.800 --> 00:36:11.519
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

472
00:36:11.579 --> 00:36:11.820
Yeah.

473
00:36:11.880 --> 00:36:13.079
Just even the quality of the image.

474
00:36:13.139 --> 00:36:13.679
I thought.

475
00:36:13.980 --> 00:36:14.579
Yes, yeah, yeah.

476
00:36:14.639 --> 00:36:16.739
Slightly smudgy and slightly musy, you know.

477
00:36:16.800 --> 00:36:17.699
Yeah.

478
00:36:17.699 --> 00:36:18.599
That whole sequence.

479
00:36:18.659 --> 00:36:20.400
Is that tape?

480
00:36:20.460 --> 00:36:21.840
I thought there was tapes for a second.

481
00:36:21.960 --> 00:36:22.860
I think this tape, oh, yeah.

482
00:36:22.920 --> 00:36:23.699
Yeah, yeah, yeah.

483
00:36:23.760 --> 00:36:24.239
Yeah, yeah, yeah.

484
00:36:24.300 --> 00:36:27.420
You know, I reckon Steve Roberts was sitting at home saying, that's what it's like.

485
00:36:27.480 --> 00:36:29.099
That's what it like.

486
00:36:29.639 --> 00:36:31.500
So, Brendan.

487
00:36:31.500 --> 00:36:32.159
Yes.

488
00:36:32.219 --> 00:36:36.539
What about your season one, season one?

489
00:36:36.599 --> 00:36:37.980
Yeah, okay, right.

490
00:36:38.039 --> 00:36:40.860
So we're up to the reign of terror, of course.

491
00:36:40.920 --> 00:36:43.860
And look, for understandable reasons.

492
00:36:43.920 --> 00:36:45.960
Everyone's quite maudlin this week.

493
00:36:47.820 --> 00:36:57.719
But the big one is, in fact, related to Roger Appwilliam. who, of course, is the prime minister.

494
00:36:57.780 --> 00:37:01.139
And when the doctor turns up outside the office, He says, I was here when he was deposed.

495
00:37:01.199 --> 00:37:10.920
Well, who gets deposed at the end of Reign of Terror, but citizen Robespierre, who the doctor had previously been to sea, but he's not actually there when he's dragged out of the office.

496
00:37:11.880 --> 00:37:14.639
So we have that.

497
00:37:14.940 --> 00:37:34.139
And of course, you know, Robespierre is a complicated figure in French historical politics, but also has a long legacy and as soon as the doctor hears and things of the name Roger at William back in 73 yards, he's able to sort of rattle off everything he can do.

498
00:37:34.199 --> 00:37:37.139
Whereas, you know, Harriet Jones, he had to think about it for a few hours.

499
00:37:37.139 --> 00:37:39.480
And he's like, oh, I know that name's familiar.

500
00:37:39.539 --> 00:37:46.019
So, yeah, we have a significant historical figure being deposed from office and the doctor was somehow involved.

501
00:37:46.139 --> 00:37:48.119
Well known, Brendan.

502
00:37:49.019 --> 00:37:55.320
I just, look, I thought the sensor rights was going to be difficult. ended up having like 3 or four.

503
00:37:55.619 --> 00:38:05.159
Well, see, this is the end of the season, and so we'll be back this Christmas to see whether Stephen Moffat's up to writing a Christmas special or not.

504
00:38:05.219 --> 00:38:07.920
So we'll see you a couple of days after Christmas Day.

505
00:38:07.920 --> 00:38:17.039
And of course, if there's any urgent spinoff that suddenly gets released between now and then, I imagine we might be back for that.

506
00:38:17.099 --> 00:38:22.320
If you're interested in keeping up with the 2nd great and bountiful Human Empire news.

507
00:38:22.380 --> 00:38:32.400
You can follow us at FDE podcast on X or even better on Mastodon or Blue Sky.

508
00:38:32.519 --> 00:38:36.000
I'm just going to plug untitled Star Trek Project.

509
00:38:36.059 --> 00:38:53.400
This Friday's episode is Angel One, the Planet of Aggressive and Very Sexy Women, and a very, very, very important message about feminism, which is we're not remotely interested in it here at Star Trek the Next Generation.

510
00:38:54.599 --> 00:38:58.679
Brendan, do you have things that you want to plant?

511
00:38:58.739 --> 00:39:00.300
Uh, yes.

512
00:39:00.360 --> 00:39:04.260
So, um, this uh, we can just go on by.

513
00:39:04.320 --> 00:39:15.179
We are up to the cool war for the 3 handed game with the Avengers, and we are looking at our 1st episode of the New Avengers, which is called Catch a Rat.

514
00:39:15.300 --> 00:39:17.460
So that's at the three-handed game.

515
00:39:17.519 --> 00:39:26.639
Meanwhile, over on my gaming podcast, BJ and I have gone on holiday to play the tourist, so that you can find at the BJBJ game show.

516
00:39:26.699 --> 00:39:46.800
And so you can keep up with us at flightsorentirety.com, of course, uh, and on our website here, greatandbountiful.com, uh, or if you have a bit more time on your hands, the 2nd great and bountifulhuman empire.com, or even possibly Shooty summoned a hopeful dentate harbinger.com.

517
00:39:47.340 --> 00:39:56.639
Until next time, then, remember, you can wait nearly 44 years, and finally, a Doctor Who story comes along in which the planet Tigella is destroyed.

518
00:39:56.699 --> 00:39:58.559
So never stop hoping.

519
00:39:58.619 --> 00:40:01.199
Thank you very much for listening and good night.

520
00:40:01.260 --> 00:40:02.460
Good night.

521
00:40:02.519 --> 00:40:05.039
I can't even see Matilla Oriensis.

522
00:40:05.400 --> 00:40:07.199
I'll see you soon